Need some good advice from seasoned lifters

[qscgugcsq]

So im 23, have been training very hard for about 9 years and I have been stuck on a ridiculous plateau for about 1.5 years. Im 5.9' 205 with about 8% BF and have always been a hard gainer. I train very heavy - Max BP 420, DL 600, squat 570 and my body weight and lifts have not increased in the last year and a half. I have tried every type of training (low weight high rep, high weight low rep, drop sets, negative training), Im taking in 5k plus calories a day and still can not gain body weight or weight on my lifts and I think my body is genetically maxed out for my age and frame. Ive never used any type of anabolic or prohormone and Im beginning to believe it may be the only way to break the plateau.
Im a rookie when it comes to anabolics but ive done my research and understand how to properly run a cycle with post cycle, and supporting supplements.
What im looking for is a little advise from a veteran to give me some more insight to help me decide if this is a good option for me and which route I should take if I decide to use an anabolic. My questions are the following:
1. Has anyone been in this position where they have used an anabolic for the first time to break such a long plateau? If so can you tell me what you used, your results, what you maintained and anything else you feel I should know.
2. I understand shutdown will occur and post cycle to crucial to restore hormone levels and keep your gains but my concern is that they will not return completely and I may end up loosing my natural progress I busted my ass to achieve in the long run if I decided not to run a cycle again.
3. I am happy with my current size and strength, it just frustrating training so hard and not seeing results for years. Im not looking to gain 20 pounds on this cycle just break my plateau and see moderate strength and size gains. Would a longer lower dosage cycle be better for these results? what would you recommend I run? for how long? and in what dosage? (I can get my hands on whatever I need )
4. I know im going to get bashed for this but I hear mixed reviews on Dbol only cycles, but keeping my goals in mind is this an option for me. Ive seen threads where people have gone 10-15mgs a day for 6 weeks and been happy with the results and retention of gains. Am I an idiot for considering this? or could that give me the moderate results im looking for.
5. Should I just be happy with where I am and stay natural? Prob not the best place for this question but has anyone regretted taking the jump to anabolics in the long run? Im no rookie to lifting and get accused of being on the sauce daily so should I just continue with what ive been doing?
Sorry this is such a long post but I wanted to cover everything to make sure I get the best advise possible. Any insight you guys can give me would be great. Thanks!

Amazing stats!!!

I didnt read ll the comment so maybe mine is repetitive. Do whatever you want with my opinion.

If these stats are true you clearly have an amazing shape.
Congratulation about it.

I think you should wait you dont have to be ashame of your shape and wont be a trouble to keep it 2 more years. You are most likely to be fine at 23 but just to be sure.

However, I know how depressing it is to train and see no result... If thats how you feel go ahead you mastered the training and dieting part, you are ready for the next step.
Test only will lead to great result.
Adding an oral as kickstart or as finisher may be done also. I personnally think than 4 weeks of oral won't inner your comprehension of testosterone .
Just my opinion.

Do you research before doing anything, you are on the good way, keep going.

[alexistheboss15]

Stop parroting this shit. Or show me a study. I feel that there's a big difference between someone who is 18-19 wanting to cycle vs 22-23.

This is what i'm thinking.
All the studies i've seen point to the fact that 18 is fine to use AAS

[Lunk1]

This is what i'm thinking.
All the studies i've seen point to the fact that 18 is fine to use AAS

This is exactly what I would say if I was 18 too!
Can you show me even ONE of these studies that say 18 is a good age to use AAS?

[Dougiefresh7707]

This is what i'm thinking.
All the studies i've seen point to the fact that 18 is fine to use AAS

Shouldn't you be in class right now?

[Lunk1]

Thanks for taking the time to post this, Lunk. So obviously the introduction of exogenous testosterone is going to stop a young person from growing if taken at a younger age... I know from personal experience.

When we talk about waiting to run gear until 24-25, the main reason that is usually thrown around on the board is that you will damage your hpta's development and risk being on trt the rest of your life. What other systems are damaged other than the endo and skeletal system? You mention the nervous system; what type of complications arise within the nervous system?

Lunk - These are all just honest questions. You are a well of knowledge so I take advantage of learning as much as I can from you.

OP - Sorry to run off with your thread here! If I have any more questions, I'll just pm Lunk.

I sense sarcasm in the bold statement I'll do my best though.

I agree that I shake my head when I see ppl speak specifically of the HPTA when advising on cycle age. (Hell I used to say the same BS). I've come to learn that (like you mentioned) the HPTA is no more at risk for someone at age 20 than it is for someone at my age (40). In fact someone my age is less likely to recover full HPTA function than someone in their 20's.

Considering that the endocrine provides hormones via the blood stream to the CNS and the PNS one can easily surmise that any damage to the endocrine system could have negative impact on the nervous system. I would be specifically concerned about the CNS considering the nervous system coordinates rapid and precise responses to stimuli using action potentials. The endocrine system maintains homeostasis and long-term control using chemical signals. The endocrine system works in parallel with the nervous system to control growth and maturation along with homeostasis.

[mixx113]

Again thanks for the advice guys. If I did decide to go with AA's, specifically test, which chain length, dosage and cycle length do you feel would give me the moderate results im looking for. From my research im finding that most people go with medium chain, 400-500mgs a week for 12 weeks. I think this might be more intense then the moderate results im looking for. How do you feel a lower dose (200mgs) of medium chain for a 12 week period would suit me? and do higher dosages increase the risk of permanent shutdown even with a proper post cycle? or does any introduction of exo-test have the same effect on the endocrine system regardless of dosage or cycle length- all with proper post cycle

[tigerspawn]

Good solid advice

[OnTheSauce]

Again thanks for the advice guys. If I did decide to go with AA's, specifically test, which chain length, dosage and cycle length do you feel would give me the moderate results im looking for. From my research im finding that most people go with medium chain, 400-500mgs a week for 12 weeks. I think this might be more intense then the moderate results im looking for. How do you feel a lower dose (200mgs) of medium chain for a 12 week period would suit me? and do higher dosages increase the risk of permanent shutdown even with a proper post cycle? or does any introduction of exo-test have the same effect on the endocrine system regardless of dosage or cycle length- all with proper post cycle

Shutdown is shutdown

[chi]

Again thanks for the advice guys. If I did decide to go with AA's, specifically test, which chain length, dosage and cycle length do you feel would give me the moderate results im looking for. From my research im finding that most people go with medium chain, 400-500mgs a week for 12 weeks. I think this might be more intense then the moderate results im looking for. How do you feel a lower dose (200mgs) of medium chain for a 12 week period would suit me? and do higher dosages increase the risk of permanent shutdown even with a proper post cycle? or does any introduction of exo-test have the same effect on the endocrine system regardless of dosage or cycle length- all with proper post cycle

Introducing a cycle @ 200 mgs for 12 weeks or 500 mgs for 12 weeks is going to shutdown your natural test production. Common beginner dose is 500 mgs a week for 12 weeks with 500 ius of hcg a week split into 2 doses per week for 13 weeks. An ai is also ran such adex .25 mgs eod. With proper pct to follow 2 weeks after last pin.

[mixx113]

Very good information chi and thanks for sharing that personal story and opinion. You really know your stuff when it comes to anabolics and its helping me a ton.

[qscgugcsq]

I sense sarcasm in the bold statement I'll do my best though.

I agree that I shake my head when I see ppl speak specifically of the HPTA when advising on cycle age. (Hell I used to say the same BS). I've come to learn that (like you mentioned) the HPTA is no more at risk for someone at age 20 than it is for someone at my age (40). In fact someone my age is less likely to recover full HPTA function than someone in their 20's.

Considering that the endocrine provides hormones via the blood stream to the CNS and the PNS one can easily surmise that any damage to the endocrine system could have negative impact on the nervous system. I would be specifically concerned about the CNS considering the nervous system coordinates rapid and precise responses to stimuli using action potentials. The endocrine system maintains homeostasis and long-term control using chemical signals. The endocrine system works in parallel with the nervous system to control growth and maturation along with homeostasis.

So you are saying that over 20, the risk of not recover are weak. the biggest danger of it is to stop the growth? (Just want to be sure I understood)

If yes, I would REALLY like to have the source where you get that information. I really would enjoy that read. Thanks

[Lunk1]

So you are saying that over 20, the risk of not recover are weak. the biggest danger of it is to stop the growth? (Just want to be sure I understood)

If yes, I would REALLY like to have the source where you get that information. I really would enjoy that read. Thanks

No..please don't misinterpret what I said to mean that recovery of your HPTA at a younger age is is given but yes, to a degree a younger person is a bit more likely to make full recovery vs someone who is older. I don't think that there will be studies on this specifically. If there are I am not familiar with them. It's more of an observation.

Most importantly it's risk vs reward. There is a chance of ANYONE who cycles to suffer form their HPTA being shutdown. The question one has to ask to ask is, is it worth it at 20 y.o. to end up on TRT for life just to gain a a few lbs of muscle vs someone who is perhaps closer to TRT or someone who plans to make $ from the career.

[mixx113]

Anyone else with some opinions?? so far its been great but im looking for any advise I can get

[BBrian]

Thanks I appreciate the insight. Like I said im on the fence just looking for opinions from people who know much more about this then myself. I don't have an exact micro breakdown but ill bring you through my typical day. Its hard for me to gain weight so im constantly carbo loading throughout the day, and pre/post workout.
breakfast shake- 50g whey, cup oatmeal, 100g maltodextros carb loader, banana, scoop peanut butter, about 2 cups whole milk.
snack- Massive PB&j, fruit
lunch- as much pasta and chicken as I can eat
snack 2- same shake with only 25g whey
Preworkout- lots of fruit and sports drink (at least 150g carbs to fill glycogen stores)
intaworkout- bag of cereal (keep cortisol down and prevent catabolism, plus im freeking hungry when I lift)
Post workout carbo load 150g carbs. mostly sugary drinks or fruit or carb loader. (I want in insulin spike immediately post workout)
Post workout meal - normally a lot of rice or potatoes with a pound of meat and veg.
Snack - fruit yogurt and granola or cereal or PB&J basically anything healthy I get my hands on
Before bed- same shake as breakfast
Just my typical day, I try to change things up when they get boring but always eat every 2-3 hours

Of your approximate 5k calories, the carbohydrate percentage is astronomical. Have you considered lowering your carbs and raising your protein? Carb cycling? A glance at that day looks like you're not taking in nearly enough protein if you intend to increase lean body mass.

The workout you described really impressed me, by the way. Warrior status workout

[mixx113]

I do make sure I get in at least 250+ g of protein a day (150 just in shakes alone). Ive lowered my carbs before and it really hurts my workout quality, strength, and i begin to loose bodyweight (im very lean already so I think its muscle mass). Im happy with my body fat and trying to put on some size/strength but even with all these carbs im still stuck at 205 for awhile .

[MuscleInk]

No..please don't misinterpret what I said to mean that recovery of your HPTA at a younger age is is given but yes, to a degree a younger person is a bit more likely to make full recovery vs someone who is older. I don't think that there will be studies on this specifically. If there are I am not familiar with them. It's more of an observation.

Most importantly it's risk vs reward. There is a chance of ANYONE who cycles to suffer form their HPTA being shutdown. The question one has to ask to ask is, is it worth it at 20 y.o. to end up on TRT for life just to gain a a few lbs of muscle vs someone who is perhaps closer to TRT or someone who plans to make $ from the career.

You're right, there won't be a plethora of studies and the reason(s) should be fairly obvious to most people. First, it wouldn't be ethical for a scientist or doctor to knowingly give subjects a drug/compound that is (1) illegal, (2) potentially dangerous, and (3) could cause permanent damage just to tear the HTPA shut down/recovery theory. A proper design would involve inter-group design where by one group of young men would be given AAS agents for a specified period as measuring biological variables before and after as comparing that to a control group. Alternatively an intra-group design where young men would be given several AAs cycles with proper PCT and measuring biological variables before and after each cycle. Both designs would not likely pass a bioethics committee review.

Another way would be observational studies comparing young men who admit to AAS usage compared with the same aged controls. This would require disclosing use of illegal compounds and despite anonymity and confidentiality provisions in clinical studies (interventional or observational) I'm not sure many would come forward to disclose use and participate.

The 25 years of age guideline is a general assumption about when HTPA maturation (not bone growth) is complete. For some, it may be slightly before 25, for others, slightly longer. There is no absolute age. Younger men are making a wise choice to wait until about 25 yrs, IMO, however, if young men wish to roll the dice and gamble with their health and lives, they at least need to understand the possible consequences of taking AAS compounds and the real risks - each different for everyone - and FULLY accept those risks, regardless of how serious or benign.

If they way to play with fire, they need to realize they could be severely burnt in some cases.

[BBrian]

I do make sure I get in at least 250+ g of protein a day (150 just in shakes alone). Ive lowered my carbs before and it really hurts my workout quality, strength, and i begin to loose bodyweight (im very lean already so I think its muscle mass). Im happy with my body fat and trying to put on some size/strength but even with all these carbs im still stuck at 205 for awhile .

Carbs don't build muscle, amino acids do. You should be shooting for 2g of protein per pound of body weight while trying to gain LBM, which would be 410 in your case. By this guideline, you're undernourished. I was surprised to read how many carbs you're taking in, but between your age/metabolic rate and workout regimen, I guess it makes sense. And to boot, I wouldn't put my faith in shakes as a great source of protein. We don't know how bioavailable any of those are. Protein shakes will never measure up to real food.

[mixx113]

Carbs don't build muscle, amino acids do. You should be shooting for 2g of protein per pound of body weight while trying to gain LBM, which would be 410 in your case. By this guideline, you're undernourished. I was surprised to read how many carbs you're taking in, but between your age/metabolic rate and workout regimen, I guess it makes sense. And to boot, I wouldn't put my faith in shakes as a great source of protein. We don't know how bioavailable any of those are. Protein shakes will never measure up to real food.

Yeah Brian my friends always joke that im going to be morbidly obese when my metabolism slows down but very good point. I did some research after reading your post and i found some mixed reviews. Ive seen claims that 2g per pound is excessive for a natty lifter but others that claim that it is necessary. Im going to give 2g/lb a shot and start incorporating some more chicken and fish into the diet and see how my body reacts to the boosted protein with all those carbs, thanks for the info!

[JCFobsession]

TEST IS THE BEST

1. You have done your research
2. Are 100% committed to doing it
3. Have legit access to gear
4. Can get full cycle worth
5 have all a.I. and PCT
6. Have all questions answered
7. Have no gray areas left
8. You are smart (knowledgeable)

If YES to all above.....

Then rock and roll... get EVERYTHING and know how and when to use it.

Not a lot of talk necessary on this.

*** I personally tell and will not let friends I know or encourage them to get on gear till at least 25 . But to each his own.

[kelkel]

You're right, there won't be a plethora of studies and the reason(s) should be fairly obvious to most people. First, it wouldn't be ethical for a scientist or doctor to knowingly give subjects a drug/compound that is (1) illegal, (2) potentially dangerous, and (3) could cause permanent damage just to tear the HTPA shut down/recovery theory. A proper design would involve inter-group design where by one group of young men would be given AAS agents for a specified period as measuring biological variables before and after as comparing that to a control group. Alternatively an intra-group design where young men would be given several AAs cycles with proper PCT and measuring biological variables before and after each cycle. Both designs would not likely pass a bioethics committee review.

Another way would be observational studies comparing young men who admit to AAS usage compared with the same aged controls. This would require disclosing use of illegal compounds and despite anonymity and confidentiality provisions in clinical studies (interventional or observational) I'm not sure many would come forward to disclose use and participate.

The 25 years of age guideline is a general assumption about when HTPA maturation (not bone growth) is complete. For some, it may be slightly before 25, for others, slightly longer. There is no absolute age. Younger men are making a wise choice to wait until about 25 yrs, IMO, however, if young men wish to roll the dice and gamble with their health and lives, they at least need to understand the possible consequences of taking AAS compounds and the real risks - each different for everyone - and FULLY accept those risks, regardless of how serious or benign.

If they way to play with fire, they need to realize they could be severely burnt in some cases.

Gets me all excited when you go into "work mode" and throw all that doc talk around......