Aromatase Excess Syndrome

**BBJT200** · 06-05-2013, 06:21 PM

This thread is to share what I have found.

I have seen a few threads recently about people claiming that testosterone just makes them fat. Some members here have come back at them with responses like "the cheeseburgers made you fat, not the testosterone...." - While this may be true for the majority of people who struggle with weight, there is the possibility of this disorder.

Over the past few years, I have struggled with low testosterone (Tested multiple times, before I had any cycling history - 317ng/dl followed by 247ng/dl a few months later), hypothyroidism symptoms despite normal bloodwork, childhood gyno, extreme mood swings, bloating, unexplainable fat gain.

I have been down to 7.6% body fat, water tested. If I let myself get dehydrated, i'd have abs. Otherwise, I just looked puffy. Or so I thought--
It was actually that I held water like a female would on her period due to elevated estrogen levels.

Now I know why. The culprit: Aromatase Excess Syndrome

Aromatase excess syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is when a male or female (usually more noticeable in males) produces too much of the aromatase enzyme due to a genetic flaw.
I struggled with cycles in the past using testosterone because they just turned me into a whale, regardless of what I ate. Losing weight was always an extreme hardship for me, despite proper carb cycling, intermittent fasting, etc. When your estrogen levels are higher than the typical woman, you experience dramatic fat gain that is out of your control.

I am going to be trying out a few different protocols and adjusting them as I feel necessary, but I am currently running letrozole @ 2.5mg/day. I have noticed a distinct change in personality, mood swings(prevalent my entire life) have vanished, I'm dropping abdominal fat and bloat, and I feel very good.

Recent bloodwork done OFF cycle, prior to starting letrozole showed:
Testosterone, total - 237ng/dl
estriadol sensitive- 462ng/dl [ref: 15-60]

I felt absolutely horrible. But this was nothing new...i've felt like total crap for as long as I can remember.

I will have another round of bloodwork in a week to see where letrozole has gotten my e2 and test levels to. Typical treatment for this disorder is Arimidex , but I have found it to be too weak to work for me.

While this is not something we see every day, I think the community should be aware that this disorder does exist. That way, when we have a member who has issues like I described above, we can better help them find a solution rather than telling them to lay off the cheeseburgers.

This may be a situation where trenbolone may actually be well-suited for TRT as it does not convert to estrogen. I'll be testing this out in the near future.

AD · 06-05-2013, 07:04 PM

good case study, well written.

but i urge you to be cautious regarding looking for TRT at the moment. if indeed you're having this condition, and if you can bring it under control with an AI, your estro will drop and its inhibition on the HPTA will be removed. this will increase your totalT naturally. you may not need TRT anymore.

but you'll have to deal with the problems of long term AI use.

**BBJT200** · 06-06-2013, 12:42 AM

You are right; I may not need TRT anymore. However...I have been on self-managed TRT for almost a year now. I really don't mind it, and would figure that my natural test production will be next to nothing if I come off. Those numbers were from running my trt dose of 150mg/week test E (split into two injections per week).

I think I will just stay on a TRT dosage for a while, and find a protocol that works for me in terms of keeping estrogen in the reference range.
Within a week of being on letrozole , i've noticed a significant change in my torso shape, the way I hold water/gain fat, etc. I'm so happy...words can't describe it.

I haven't done much research on long-term AI usage. What problems would I need to be concerned about?

AD · 06-06-2013, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by BBJT200

You are right; I may not need TRT anymore. However...I have been on self-managed TRT for almost a year now. I really don't mind it, and would figure that my natural test production will be next to nothing if I come off. Those numbers were from running my trt dose of 150mg/week test E (split into two injections per week).

I think I will just stay on a TRT dosage for a while, and find a protocol that works for me in terms of keeping estrogen in the reference range.
Within a week of being on letrozole , i've noticed a significant change in my torso shape, the way I hold water/gain fat, etc. I'm so happy...words can't describe it.

I haven't done much research on long-term AI usage. What problems would I need to be concerned about?

i am not a fan of self-administered TRT. i feel its quite a complicated problem, and should be left to trained doctors only.

anyway, all AI are thought to have negative effects on your cholesterol. long term use will probably increase your risk of worsening cholesterol leading to artherosclerosis problems, like heart attack or stroke.

**fit2bOld** · 06-06-2013, 06:43 AM

Very interesting as this was my case, in figuring out my TRT not only were my T levels low but estrogen was quite high. I was hitting cardio like mad eating properly and still could not shed the fat and bloat. Years later happy to report no adverse effect from long term AI use noted as of yet. Bodyfat and bloating are under control and years of hard work in the gym now show nicely.

**BBJT200** · 06-06-2013, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by fit2bOld

Very interesting as this was my case, in figuring out my TRT not only were my T levels low but estrogen was quite high. I was hitting cardio like mad eating properly and still could not shed the fat and bloat. Years later happy to report no adverse effect from long term AI use noted as of yet. Bodyfat and bloating are under control and years of hard work in the gym now show nicely.

This is great to hear. I am so excited to see that change happen for myself as well....when you hard work doesn't show, for years on end, it becomes very difficult to keep going.

What is your AI protocol, fit2bold? And are you on TRT?

**Buster Brown** · 06-06-2013, 11:37 AM

Nice write-up, thanks for sharing.

**BBJT200** · 06-06-2013, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by AD

i am not a fan of self-administered TRT. i feel its quite a complicated problem, and should be left to trained doctors only.

anyway, all AI are thought to have negative effects on your cholesterol. long term use will probably increase your risk of worsening cholesterol leading to artherosclerosis problems, like heart attack or stroke.

When you have a very small amount of money to work with, you must do what is necessary to survive.
I don't have health insurance, I don't have a steady job, and I don't have a college degree. I've been dealing with the effects of this disorder my entire life, and it's definitely stepped in the way of many of my ambitions. At least now I will have a fighting chance to turn things around.

I will look into the cholesterol-related issues with long-term AI use. Thank you!

**tb500** · 06-06-2013, 05:04 PM

BBJT200, was wondering if you had oily skin and any related hairloss?

AD · 06-06-2013, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by BBJT200

When you have a very small amount of money to work with, you must do what is necessary to survive.
I don't have health insurance, I don't have a steady job, and I don't have a college degree. I've been dealing with the effects of this disorder my entire life, and it's definitely stepped in the way of many of my ambitions. At least now I will have a fighting chance to turn things around.

I will look into the cholesterol-related issues with long-term AI use. Thank you!

the problem with self-TRT is that it may not treat the real underlying problem. like in your case, after 1yr of self-TRT, you still have lowT and low satisfaction of treatment outcome. if you indeed have excess aromatase, that could very well be the reason of your initial lowT. treating that could possibly have raised your natty T to a satisfactory level, without the need for lifelong injections.

**fit2bOld** · 06-07-2013, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by BBJT200

This is great to hear. I am so excited to see that change happen for myself as well....when you hard work doesn't show, for years on end, it becomes very difficult to keep going.

What is your AI protocol, fit2bold? And are you on TRT?

TRT is for life. AI is anastrozole dose is verified by blood work.

**BBJT200** · 06-07-2013, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by tb500

BBJT200, was wondering if you had oily skin and any related hairloss?

Until I started cycling, I've always had a very soft, girlish complexion and really no oil to speak of.
Running an AI at a high dose like this, i'm getting oily skin like I can't believe...the acne is killing me. (I get cystic acne which is deep under the skin)

**BBJT200** · 06-07-2013, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by AD

the problem with self-TRT is that it may not treat the real underlying problem. like in your case, after 1yr of self-TRT, you still have lowT and low satisfaction of treatment outcome. if you indeed have excess aromatase, that could very well be the reason of your initial lowT. treating that could possibly have raised your natty T to a satisfactory level, without the need for lifelong injections.

Agreed; however it is not something I find burdensome and it allows me to cycle with out worrying about PCT.
I have been on TRT so long that I fear I would have next to zero natural test production if I stopped. Not something I want to go through right now.

**Lunk1** · 06-07-2013, 01:17 PM

This doesn't change my initial statement that you quoted. Test isn't the enemy..estrogen is and if your calories are less than what you burn...you will lose weight.

**BBJT200** · 06-08-2013, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

This doesn't change my initial statement that you quoted. Test isn't the enemy..estrogen is and if your calories are less than what you burn...you will lose weight.

Lunk, you are misguided on this issue. Perhaps you did not understand my writeup or the wikipedia article fully.

When you can't get estrogen down to the normal range, test is the enemy because it drives estrogen to even higher levels.
Estrogen CAUSES fat gain; excessive estrogen causes EXCESSIVE fat gain even on a caloric deficit. You have no personal experience with this; you really wouldn't know.

Your comment does apply to the majority of the population. It is true that generally, if you burn more than you eat, you will lose weight. Hormonal factors can skew the real-world results, and they clearly do in the case of aromatase excess syndrome.

Please refrain from making comments like this as they do not help anyone. These comments actually can lead to psychological issues due to a person repeatedly 'doing everything right,' being told that this is the way it will work, and the real-world results being completely different. When you fail, fail, fail, and fail again, only to be told that you are eating cheeseburgers you wouldn't even dream of eating, it can drive a person to develop psychological problems. An example would be an eating disorder such as bulimia nervosa.

**qscgugcsq** · 06-08-2013, 03:59 PM

You know far more than me on that subject, however does aromasin would help??
Its a suicidal inhibitor, it destroy the enzyme responsible for conversion in estrogen( if I remember well). Does massive(25-50mg/daily) doses would allow you to be able to manage your E2. Aromasin to keep your aromatase at normal rate and arimidex to drop your E2.

Just saying...

Of course running 2 AI seems extreme but you situation is not common, so it needs uncommon solution.

**BBJT200** · 06-08-2013, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by qscgugcsq

You know far more than me on that subject, however does aromasin would help??
Its a suicidal inhibitor, it destroy the enzyme responsible for conversion in estrogen( if I remember well). Does massive(25-50mg/daily) doses would allow you to be able to manage your E2. Aromasin to keep your aromatase at normal rate and arimidex to drop your E2.

Just saying...

Of course running 2 AI seems extreme but you situation is not common, so it needs uncommon solution.

This sounds like something worth trying. I see your logic there with reducing the overall amount of enzymes using aromasin. I have not tried two ai's in conjunction, but this seems like it could potentially work well.

In the past, I have tried 25mg ED of aromasin, and couldn't control my e2 on cycle.
1mg ED of arimidex couldn't keep it down on cycle.

So far, letrozole is working well but I fear it will damage my blood lipids considerably with long term use...so I will be getting periodic bloodwork to check on this. I'm not sure, but I am under the impression that letrozole's extreme impact on blood lipids is due to it being extremely suppressive to estrogen. Estrogen is supposed to help keep blood lipids in a healthy range....so perhaps using letrozole will not be an issue if I only use it to get my e2 into normal range and not below it.

**yannick35** · 06-08-2013, 05:37 PM

Hahaha Lunk once more is a confused idiot what a surprise, your article is amazing, and you help me find a name for our issue. People on this board think we are all the same, same genetics and all, we can just do the same diet eat 6 small meals per day shug down 300g of protein and look the same, when you have a brain and look into it you realize that this is far from the truth. Bill Pearl was a vegetarian eating less then 80g of protein per day and he looked better then most. Lots of vegetarian food lower estrogen btw. Serge Nubret ate once a day horse meat beans and salad and looked amazing. It is clear the people need to educate themselves and see what works for them, i just tried intermittent fasting for 6 months and found it its not all that cut up to be but a few people did amazing on it. I am going semi vegan now and see what happens. I have also seen some people say a winstrol cycle will produce crap, this again all depends on what the user is after i am in my second week of my winstrol 150mg per week cycle and anavar 20mg per day and seeing good results, no weight gain but my body has transformed. Adding tren this week at 120-150mg dosage no test, hey no test no test no test.

**snowblowjoe** · 06-08-2013, 05:48 PM

Horse meat!!!!

**yannick35** · 06-08-2013, 05:49 PM

People on this board freaked out when i was put on TRT by an idiot medical incompetent i came on here for help and got told crap, they could not beleive that i went from 217 pounds to 261 pounds in 6 months at only 200mg of test E per week, and most of this was water and fat, not muscle. I have testosterone very far into my harse right now. When i stopped i was still aromatizing silly i asked the people on this board for help and if being on test E for a year would have screwed up my body, they told me no that everything should be back to normal problem is that it never did, i lost weight after stopping T went from 261 to 242 but it took all my change to get from 242 to 230, and i was never able to get lower then 230 pounds. I am myslef just starting aramidex twice a week been on for about 3 weeks now and i can see a bit of difference. I am sure that this situation i had ever since i was young never been able to get cut even with low carb and extreme cardio. Kyokushin karate 4 times per week tones of ab and squat and push up and cardio i was 15 years old at that time and 138 pounds, skinny but with an extra layer of water on my stomach. BBJT200 you put the finger on it bro amazing find. Now lets see if we can do something about this, at 40 years old i dont plan on stiking to 230 pounds i really want to get back down to 200 and i did not get where i am eating burgers, what an idiot reply indeed burgers pffff

**snowblowjoe** · 06-08-2013, 05:56 PM

Your eating too much horse meat!! Jk I'm bored

**BBJT200** · 06-08-2013, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by yannick35

Hahaha Lunk once more is a confused idiot what a surprise, your article is amazing, and you help me find a name for our issue. People on this board think we are all the same, same genetics and all, we can just do the same diet eat 6 small meals per day shug down 300g of protein and look the same, when you have a brain and look into it you realize that this is far from the truth. Bill Pearl was a vegetarian eating less then 80g of protein per day and he looked better then most. Lots of vegetarian food lower estrogen btw. Serge Nubret ate once a day horse meat beans and salad and looked amazing. It is clear the people need to educate themselves and see what works for them, i just tried intermittent fasting for 6 months and found it its not all that cut up to be but a few people did amazing on it. I am going semi vegan now and see what happens. I have also seen some people say a winstrol cycle will produce crap, this again all depends on what the user is after i am in my second week of my winstrol 150mg per week cycle and anavar 20mg per day and seeing good results, no weight gain but my body has transformed. Adding tren this week at 120-150mg dosage no test, hey no test no test no test.

Lunk is wrong for making the comments that he did. However, I would say that he is merely too confident in himself and close-minded rather than an idiot. This board, as a general rule, preaches the idea that if you burn more than you eat, you will lose weight. It also centers its information around a one-size fits all type of program/cycle advice. We are not all the same, and what works for one person may not work for another. I've found that every time I jump onto a testosterone cycle, I just get overly fat. I will gain some muscle, but most of my weight gain is water and fat regardless of how I eat or follow the suggested AI protocols.

I wish you luck on the tren /winstrol cycle; let us know how it works out for you. You may want to include something like 50mg/week of testosterone, just to keep a little bit circulating in your system. According to all of the information on this site, tren will shut down your natural production completely and leave you with little to no testosterone; however, our case is not the norm so I guess it will take a case study to find out what will really happen.

Please keep us updated!

**yannick35** · 06-08-2013, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by snowblowjoe

Your eating too much horse meat!! Jk I'm bored

I stopped the horse meat and replace them with burgers lots of them and i lost 70 pounds in 2 days

**yannick35** · 06-08-2013, 06:40 PM

I just come here for fun, i will never ask another question to the members on here ever because like you said you get flamed and mis informed. A one size fit all you are right 6 small meals a day lots of protein and other crap like this, but weight gain can be related to so many issues. I have a friend, she started P90X last year, she is 5 foot 5 and weighted in at 202 pounds, she did some low carb low glycemic diet and did everything right, she did P90X double program in the morning cardio and even went running at night, after a month she comes to my house all pisses off she put in so much effort and she weighted in at 206. She did everything right. If she would have come here for advise she would have gotten all the same crap and ended up more confused. She was always on the chubby side so. Hormonal problems i told her to get blood work, she has since moved and i no longer see her. Thyroid can be an issue even in men low carb diets are known to scew up and slow down thyroid intermittent fasting also does that. Everyone writing a diet book will come out preaching there plan and how everyone can get on this diet. Whey protein so far i bloat, and i feel no satiety from it either, but here whey is king, how can a allergic food like this be king, also whole wheat gluten and dairy products. I feel we are far better on our own and make our own studies and more, a lot less confusing then listening to very bad advise.

My friend who is training me won mister montreal back in 1982 he is 53 and he looks amazing today, still trains and all. Most of the bodybuilders he trains have specific diets and its not a one size fit all, some are all vegans, some meat eithers, some on low carb, he needs to work with the bodybuilder to find out what works and what does not, and many have done tren winstrol anavar clen cycle with sick results no test. Also a 7 weeks tren ace wont shut you down that much depending on dosage. Here dosage you need to take anavar 80mg or its a waste, tren at least 300mg per week or you are wasting your time, i have spoken to people who got amazing results at 120mg per week and almost no sides.

AD · 06-08-2013, 07:33 PM

to BBJT and Yannick. it may be good to finally find a name to your problems, but i would still like to caution you regarding the validity of this "diagnosis" and whether it actually apply in your individual cases.

this is a passage from the link that BBJT provided. it states the symptoms that you should experience if you actually have this syndrome:

The symptoms of AES, in males, include heterosexual precocity (precocious puberty with phenotypically-inappropriate secondary sexual characteristics; i.e., a fully or mostly feminized appearance), severe prepubertal or peripubertal gynecomastia (development of breasts in males before or around puberty), hypogonadism (dysfunctional gonads), oligozoospermia (low sperm count), small testes, micropenis (an ususually small penis), advanced bone maturation, an earlier peak height velocity (an accelerated rate of growth in regards to height),[7] and short final stature due to early epiphyseal closure,

you may both very well have high aromatase activity, but that could be due to various reasons. age, bf%, and of cos genetics. but it may not equate to a genetic defect that is passed down from your parents. here's another statement from the same link:

To date, 10 families with AES have been fully described in the medical literature, of which 23 males and at least 6 females were characterized as displaying symptoms of the condition.[1][4]

its a rare disease and only 10 families have been reported.

**BBJT200** · 06-08-2013, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by AD

to BBJT and Yannick. it may be good to finally find a name to your problems, but i would still like to caution you regarding the validity of this "diagnosis" and whether it actually apply in your individual cases.

this is a passage from the link that BBJT provided. it states the symptoms that you should experience if you actually have this syndrome:

The symptoms of AES, in males, include heterosexual precocity (precocious puberty with phenotypically-inappropriate secondary sexual characteristics; i.e., a fully or mostly feminized appearance), severe prepubertal or peripubertal gynecomastia (development of breasts in males before or around puberty), hypogonadism (dysfunctional gonads), oligozoospermia (low sperm count), small testes, micropenis (an ususually small penis), advanced bone maturation, an earlier peak height velocity (an accelerated rate of growth in regards to height),[7] and short final stature due to early epiphyseal closure,

you may both very well have high aromatase activity, but that could be due to various reasons. age, bf%, and of cos genetics. but it may not equate to a genetic defect that is passed down from your parents. here's another statement from the same link:

To date, 10 families with AES have been fully described in the medical literature, of which 23 males and at least 6 females were characterized as displaying symptoms of the condition.[1][4]

its a rare disease and only 10 families have been reported.

Let's take a look at the current attitude of the medical community towards TRT. Then let's look at the attitude say...ten years ago, twenty years ago, and so on. Why do you think this disease may have few reported cases? I would figure that because it is difficult to diagnose, that is why.

This article stating that ten families with AES have been described in medical literature does not mean that ONLY ten families have it. As we see in every disease, disorder, etc there are varying levels of severity.

I do have prepubertal gynecomastia , I do have a partially feminized appearance, I do not grow body hair as I should being a male, I have hypogonadism (clinically diagnosed), and I have not grown since I was around 14. I have extremely soft hair and skin that women are constantly telling me that they are jealous of. This is due to my naturally high estrogen levels. Also, Bf has little to do with my conversion rate, as I have been down to 7.6% water tested and still bloated and had high e2.

Where do you see that only ten families have been reported? I believe the article states that ten families have been fully described in medical literature, not that there are only ten families that have had this disease.

**yannick35** · 06-08-2013, 07:48 PM

AD what you say is spot on, but before i got put on TRT i could lose weight easy at 36 i did a low carb diet and lost well over 35 pounds, i never ever ballooned up to 261 ever. I am also very honest on what i say, i wont lie about things, or post fake pics of myself, or a fake diet. When i was on Testo E i did not eat more, i just gained water and fat. Ever since i did that one year of test E i am unable whatever i do to get under 230, unless i use T3 which i did a few months back got down to 220 and after that i go right back to 230. So in my case i dont feel its age but more of what the steroids did to my body during that year. What i see now is transformation, less fat, gut more shape, but my weight still remains at 230, i cut fat, cut carbs but the weight stays the same, i tried intermittent fasting 20 hours, 16-18-14 hours, per day, my weight stayed the same, came off the fast and ate light no carbs and still my weight remains at 230. I am on aramdiex .5mg twice a week so i hold on less water, i will do this for 6 months and re evaluate.

**BBJT200** · 06-08-2013, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by yannick35

AD what you say is spot on, but before i got put on TRT i could lose weight easy at 36 i did a low carb diet and lost well over 35 pounds, i never ever ballooned up to 261 ever. I am also very honest on what i say, i wont lie about things, or post fake pics of myself, or a fake diet. When i was on Testo E i did not eat more, i just gained water and fat. Ever since i did that one year of test E i am unable whatever i do to get under 230, unless i use T3 which i did a few months back got down to 220 and after that i go right back to 230. So in my case i dont feel its age but more of what the steroids did to my body during that year. What i see now is transformation, less fat, gut more shape, but my weight still remains at 230, i cut fat, cut carbs but the weight stays the same, i tried intermittent fasting 20 hours, 16-18-14 hours, per day, my weight stayed the same, came off the fast and ate light no carbs and still my weight remains at 230. I am on aramdiex .5mg twice a week so i hold on less water, i will do this for 6 months and re evaluate.

I would suggest getting bloodwork monthly until you get your AI dose sorted out properly. That would allow you to get to where you want to be much sooner.

**yannick35** · 06-08-2013, 08:01 PM

The medical doctor that put me on TRT told me he is the first in Canada to do this, and been putting people on testosterone for 15 years, he told me no AI at 200mg a week for my size. He told me i will lose tone of fat, i could eat what i want and i will get back my lost muscles that i lost during my injuries. 3 weeks later i went from 217 ( was chubby at 217 but i could still fit into my pants), and i told him that i needed to go down in weight not up. So 3 weeks later i went from 217 to 234 no diet change....... he saw that change and started laughing....... he also put me on T without seeing my blood test results, the year before i was at 700, usually people are put on T when there levels are below 400, he asked me about depression well of course i was depressed with chronic back pain and not being able to live my life has i wanted, he asked me about my sex drive i never had issues with that, and told him, i did have fat gains around the waist but still. 6 months later when i went back to see him i was ballooned up at 261 fatigue, out of energy, i had gotten a bottle of letrozole from the guy that currently fixes my back, a bottle of water pills and some HCG , i showed the medical doctor all that, and he looked confused, he told me to lower the testosterone dosage to 100mg per week no blood test nothing. In the mean time he got my old blood test back and my T levels where at 640 far form the 400 mark and i had no reason to be put on testosterone, i got serious blood pressure from this, weight gain fat gains and water gains. So yes a lot of theses so called TRT specialist dont know what they are doing. TRT is a blessing for someone that needs it, but its still very new in term of treatment. Who knows maybe in 10 years they will stop because of issues they will have found like women therapy and estrogen, causing more cancer then curing it.

**yannick35** · 06-08-2013, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by BBJT200

I would suggest getting bloodwork monthly until you get your AI dose sorted out properly. That would allow you to get to where you want to be much sooner.

Right now i am good hands no problem, i can get blood work done on a reguluar basis but the insurance wont cover it cause i gotta go private the guy is a certified chiro not a medical doctor yet he is 1000 times more competent than all the a$$ holes i have seen over the years for my chronic pain.

AD · 06-08-2013, 08:47 PM

BBJT, you make a rather convincing case. i wish you all the best in your treatment. i personally feel it may be slightly too complicated to be self-managed.

Yannick, your case sounds more like a TRT mis-management. but since you're happy with your current doctor, things should be getting better.

i find this condition really interesting. it would be great if both of you would keep the board updated regarding your progress.

**yannick35** · 06-08-2013, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by AD

BBJT, you make a rather convincing case. i wish you all the best in your treatment. i personally feel it may be slightly too complicated to be self-managed.

Yannick, your case sounds more like a TRT mis-management. but since you're happy with your current doctor, things should be getting better.

i find this condition really interesting. it would be great if both of you would keep the board updated regarding your progress.

The vote is still up for this for me at least, a lot of people here are convinced you cannot do a cycle without testosterone and this is what bothers me. With the cycles i am doing now i know i wont put 20 pounds of muscles but i will transform my body. The guy that fixes my back has seen many 40 year old do small cycles like this just to shed the fat get the muscle maturity and improve training over the year. I cannot speak about tren i will get it this week and add it to the cycle, but winstrol and var are working great so far, first week of win and my body has change a bit, the pumps i am getting are insane but i also get the muscle spasm that come with it, pain in calves, feet hands etc, and since i got back pain i feel it even more. Most people that did this 7 week cycle and lost fat kept it off, the small muscle gains on winstrol was also kept, so if i gain like 4-5 pounds and shed a lot of fat i will be happy with this.

**BBJT200** · 06-08-2013, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by AD

BBJT, you make a rather convincing case. i wish you all the best in your treatment. i personally feel it may be slightly too complicated to be self-managed.

Yannick, your case sounds more like a TRT mis-management. but since you're happy with your current doctor, things should be getting better.

i find this condition really interesting. it would be great if both of you would keep the board updated regarding your progress.

Thank you for your kind wishes. It is a complicated matter and I would much rather have it managed by a specialist, but for now I do not have much of a choice. I will keep this thread updated with my progress.

I have now been on letrozole for 8 days, 2.5mg/day. Mood swings have vanished (these were common - all day, every day for me), water retention has gone noticeably down, I am losing body fat on my chest, stomach, and legs. No joint pain or low estrogen symptoms so far. I am thinking I will get bloodwork at the end of week three.

I am very intrigued by the idea of using aromasin and arimidex together or aromasin and letrozole together to combat estrogen. Aromasin is very easy on the body compared to letrozole and arimidex, so if it could handle the majority of my aromatase enzymes, I think I would be better off in terms of long-term treatment. This is definitely the area where working with a specialist would be much better than managing it on my own.

AD · 06-08-2013, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by BBJT200

I am very intrigued by the idea of using aromasin and arimidex together or aromasin and letrozole together to combat estrogen. Aromasin is very easy on the body compared to letrozole and arimidex, so if it could handle the majority of my aromatase enzymes, I think I would be better off in terms of long-term treatment. This is definitely the area where working with a specialist would be much better than managing it on my own.

i dont think you should use 2 AI together. i'm not sure what will happen if you use both. the drug companies and doctors wont know either, cos it probably have never been tried on humans before...lol

AD · 06-08-2013, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by yannick35

The vote is still up for this for me at least, a lot of people here are convinced you cannot do a cycle without testosterone and this is what bothers me. With the cycles i am doing now i know i wont put 20 pounds of muscles but i will transform my body. The guy that fixes my back has seen many 40 year old do small cycles like this just to shed the fat get the muscle maturity and improve training over the year. I cannot speak about tren i will get it this week and add it to the cycle, but winstrol and var are working great so far, first week of win and my body has change a bit, the pumps i am getting are insane but i also get the muscle spasm that come with it, pain in calves, feet hands etc, and since i got back pain i feel it even more. Most people that did this 7 week cycle and lost fat kept it off, the small muscle gains on winstrol was also kept, so if i gain like 4-5 pounds and shed a lot of fat i will be happy with this.

i would suggest you go slow with the compounds and doses of your cycle. dont try too many things at one go, and dont use too high doses.

**BBJT200** · 06-08-2013, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by AD

i dont think you should use 2 AI together. i'm not sure what will happen if you use both. the drug companies and doctors wont know either, cos it probably have never been tried on humans before...lol

The worst thing that I could imagine happening would be a tanked e2 level, which will come back very quickly for me.
I have managed to bottom out my e2 before when I was trying to kill gyno with letrozole , but the symptoms of low e2 (fatigue, achy joints) only lasted less than a day.

I'm thinking that 25mg/day aromasin + some small dose of arimidex or letrozole would be better than just using a high dose of letrozole. I've used up to 1mg/day of arimidex and it still is not enough; I'm hesitant to go higher. Aromasin has been shown to be much less harmful to blood lipids

But you're right...I doubt the doctors or drug companies would have a clue. I guess I'll be a guinea pig...and hope for the best lol

**yannick35** · 06-08-2013, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by BBJT200

The worst thing that I could imagine happening would be a tanked e2 level, which will come back very quickly for me.
I have managed to bottom out my e2 before when I was trying to kill gyno with letrozole , but the symptoms of low e2 (fatigue, achy joints) only lasted less than a day.

I'm thinking that 25mg/day aromasin + some small dose of arimidex or letrozole would be better than just using a high dose of letrozole. I've used up to 1mg/day of arimidex and it still is not enough; I'm hesitant to go higher. Aromasin has been shown to be much less harmful to blood lipids

But you're right...I doubt the doctors or drug companies would have a clue. I guess I'll be a guinea pig...and hope for the best lol

letro is king and the strongest ever i used it after that one year crap TRT and lost a lot of water. The dosage i am using for my cycles are always low, 120-150mg per week tren win at 150mg for 10 weeks might has well run the whole bottle and var for the whole bottle too at 20-30mg per day. Thoses are all low dosage. I got clomid and nova for PCT with HCG

**snowblowjoe** · 06-09-2013, 06:13 AM

Those are low doses but when you combined them all together it adds up to be a moderate dose don't you think

**songdog** · 06-09-2013, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by yannick35

Hahaha Lunk once more is a confused idiot what a surprise, your article is amazing, and you help me find a name for our issue. People on this board think we are all the same, same genetics and all, we can just do the same diet eat 6 small meals per day shug down 300g of protein and look the same, when you have a brain and look into it you realize that this is far from the truth. Bill Pearl was a vegetarian eating less then 80g of protein per day and he looked better then most. Lots of vegetarian food lower estrogen btw. Serge Nubret ate once a day horse meat beans and salad and looked amazing. It is clear the people need to educate themselves and see what works for them, i just tried intermittent fasting for 6 months and found it its not all that cut up to be but a few people did amazing on it. I am going semi vegan now and see what happens. I have also seen some people say a winstrol cycle will produce crap, this again all depends on what the user is after i am in my second week of my winstrol 150mg per week cycle and anavar 20mg per day and seeing good results, no weight gain but my body has transformed. Adding tren this week at 120-150mg dosage no test, hey no test no test no test.

Hey bro I dont know wat you are trying to prove.But we do have a no flaming policy.So I suggest you change your tone.And if it is your lifes goal to prove wat we do here wrong.Go a head and run tren by itself.I have never met someone who did it safely.But like everything else there are excepions to the rules.Wat works for most dont on one.BBJT200 could be on to something here only time will tell.All I can say is I wish him luck.

**yannick35** · 06-09-2013, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by songdog

Hey bro I dont know wat you are trying to prove.But we do have a no flaming policy.So I suggest you change your tone.And if it is your lifes goal to prove wat we do here wrong.Go a head and run tren by itself.I have never met someone who did it safely.But like everything else there are excepions to the rules.Wat works for most dont on one.BBJT200 could be on to something here only time will tell.All I can say is I wish him luck.

Your no flaming policy is bull$$hit that is all i have to say, when i get flamed and it happened a lot no one told other people anything.

I am here to prove that you people have it all wrong, and that all your one sided rules don't apply to everyone, like a cycle must have testosterone .

I have never lied about everything i used or did, the fat gains and more but i got flamed all the time, like its impossible for someone to gain that much fat with testosterone.

I have nothing else to prove i don't give a rats a$$ about this board, i am just reading stuff and having fun, there is so much information that is just wrong and applied like BBJT200 says would give me and him awful results.

Its like eating 200g of protein a day you will get fat and soooo much more.

I am being trained by a guy that is 53 right now won Mister Montreal back in 1982 he never used any supplements, he gave me the best advise ever and put me on aramidex for 6 months he acknowledge that everyone is different and yes some might not even need testosterone in a cycle cause it makes then balloon up even with an AI. This knowledge is precious and worth listening too coming here and getting flamed is note.

I hope i proved my point clear now let me read the rest of what happens in peace and keep on laughing out loud when reading about all the mis information society..

May god protect my sweet white a$$ against the flamers