On Cycle Pumps>Weight Used for Size. Care to call BS AAS vets?

**David LoPan** · 05-20-2014, 09:22 AM

Damm Kelkel, I love the your avatar.

**Docd187123** · 05-20-2014, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

This ^^^. Guys, push-ups will give you a hell of a pump but how much muscle do you think you'll gain from them?

What a great avi Kel lol.

I can also get a pump taking some dbol and curling the pink dumbbells enough times

**SEOINAGE** · 05-20-2014, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Black

Form, form and more form. I get a pump on my first warmup set after about 10-12 reps with slow contractions. By the 'pump principle', my workout should be done, right?

People get stuck in these "which routines are better" mindset. They read about one and follow it to a "T". Its much more simple than that. You find what style training fits you best and work with that.

The keys are proper/strict form and working the muscle to TRUE failure and making minor changes every so often to continue to shock the body into growth.

In all aspects in life, our bodies are trying to achieve homeostasis. To prevent this, we have to change things up to prevent our body from getting accustomed to the stress.

Maybe we define failure differently, but I don't think you ever have to go to complete failure to grow. Sure you can do it, but I almost never do. And I think you could train short of failure your whole lifting career and still make progress, it isn't a determining factor imo.

**Docd187123** · 05-20-2014, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by SEOINAGE

Maybe we define failure differently, but I don't think you ever have to go to complete failure to grow. Sure you can do it, but I almost never do. And I think you could train short of failure your whole lifting career and still make progress, it isn't a determining factor imo.

DC and the HIT crowd popularized training to failure. While it does work you do need to drastically reduce volume to compensate for the training to failure. I prefer other methods as training to failure and forced reps/negative reps can be dangerous without a spotter and I'd train alone most of the time

**SEOINAGE** · 05-20-2014, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Docd187123

DC and the HIT crowd popularized training to failure. While it does work you do need to drastically reduce volume to compensate for the training to failure. I prefer other methods as training to failure and forced reps/negative reps can be dangerous without a spotter and I'd train alone most of the time

Yeah, no doubt others use the principle with success. I also train alone, and I've also found improvements in my ability to finish a rep since not training to failure, since you aren't ever setting yourself up to miss a rep. I believe it makes a difference, but I can't go and prove the psychology behind it works for everyone, and of course others could raise different arguments related.

**davesah1** · 05-20-2014, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

This ^^^. Guys, push-ups will give you a hell of a pump but how much muscle do you think you'll gain from them?

There's actually one jacked ass mma fighter and he claims to only do body workouts. I think he said like 1000 push-ups for chest 10 sets of 100. If anyone can recall the name of the dude I'm talkin about let me know. He actually has a really big chest

**tectime** · 05-20-2014, 11:41 AM

The pump up and the swell are very much necessary to help achieve maximum muscle growth. What do you think carries all the growth factors to your muscles? It's the blood. What do you think swells you up and you feel coursing thru the stressed muscles you are exercising? Right the blood. So it stands to reason the more pump and swell and the longer you can stay swelled the more growth you can achieve.

**SEOINAGE** · 05-20-2014, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by tectime

The pump up and the swell are very much necessary to help achieve maximum muscle growth. What do you think carries all the growth factors to your muscles? It's the blood. What do you think swells you up and you feel coursing thru the stressed muscles you are exercising? Right the blood. So it stands to reason the more pump and swell and the longer you can stay swelled the more growth you can achieve.

Lost me here. Most of the growth is going to happen not in that little 30 minute pumped up window, but other times.

**Docd187123** · 05-20-2014, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by SEOINAGE

Lost me here. Most of the growth is going to happen not in that little 30 minute pumped up window, but other times.

X2. Apparently you don't grow during recovery anymore, you only grow during the 30min-1hr you have the 'pump'.

**tectime** · 05-20-2014, 01:14 PM

Right we grow when we rest. But if you don't feed the muscles with blood and the growth factors within then all you are doing is resting. You only grow when you rest if you have stressed your muscles enough and have "pumped" enough blood thru that you are feeding the fibers you are recovering. I don't know how that could have lost you " you seem to have a basic knowledge of weightlifting doesn't sound like much in the body sculpting section but hey to each his own. Plus if your pump is only lasting 30 mins after you are done working out and you don't stay swelled up for hrs..... Dude you are not really working out now are you!

**Docd187123** · 05-20-2014, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by tectime

Right we grow when we rest. But if you don't feed the muscles with blood and the growth factors within then all you are doing is resting. You only grow when you rest if you have stressed your muscles enough and have "pumped" enough blood thru that you are feeding the fibers you are recovering. I don't know how that could have lost you " you seem to have a basic knowledge of weightlifting doesn't sound like much in the body sculpting section but hey to each his own. Plus if your pump is only lasting 30 mins after you are done working out and you don't stay swelled up for hrs..... Dude you are not really working out now are you!

What's lost upon me is the need for a pump for growth. Not how to grow as I've been doing that pretty effectively without working towards a pump for years now and so have many thousands of other lifters. As I already stated, I didn't say pumps are worthless, there is evidence they may increase the hypertrophic response but it does this indirectly through increased intra-cellular hydration not by any direct means. Furthermore, all the studies done on muscular pumps showing this increased hypertrophic response have been only performed on test tube cell cultures...not living breathing human beings. A far cry from solid information.

Muscles constantly have blood flowing through them. You don't need a pump to get blood flow to recover from training as that's already happening 24hours a day 7days a week.

Weightlifting vs body sculpting? Lol. I can't take that statement seriously. This sounds like a BB'img magazine advertisement.

Now instead of assuming you think you know anything about my workouts, how about you continue lifting for a pump and I'll continue doing my thing. I would also suggest a kinesiology or physiology textbook and also to try liftimg the little pink dumbbells for reps. Come back and tell me how much growth you got from that pump.

**tectime** · 05-20-2014, 03:10 PM

What do you think inner cellular hydration is? If you are going to google something make sure you understand what you are reading. I'm talking about swelling your muscles full of inner cellular hydration and you don't think that is a direct factor to muscle growth?

**tectime** · 05-20-2014, 03:17 PM

And dude I'm not talking about that little pink dumbbell pump , I don't even know what that means. Do I look like I lift little pink dumbbells? Haha ! Please ! I didn't know you could get pumped up like that ! I'm talking about maintaining constant stress on the muscle you are working and pumping your muscle at the end of the contraction portion to force more inner cellular hydration in. My gym doesn't even have pink dumbbells Barbie .

**kelkel** · 05-20-2014, 04:29 PM

Well this is going nowhere fast....

**Docd187123** · 05-20-2014, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by tectime

What do you think inner cellular hydration is? If you are going to google something make sure you understand what you are reading. I'm talking about swelling your muscles full of inner cellular hydration and you don't think that is a direct factor to muscle growth?

So by your logic salt is necessary for muscular growth since after all it increases hydration....

Again by your logic creatine MUST be NECESSARY for muscular growth since it too increases cellular hydration....

Originally Posted by tectime

And dude I'm not talking about that little pink dumbbell pump , I don't even know what that means. Do I look like I lift little pink dumbbells? Haha ! Please ! I didn't know you could get pumped up like that ! I'm talking about maintaining constant stress on the muscle you are working and pumping your muscle at the end of the contraction portion to force more inner cellular hydration in. My gym doesn't even have pink dumbbells Barbie .

Than you're cheating yourself of muscle growth, again by your own logic, since the little pink dumbbells WILL provide constant stress on the muscle and will most certainly provide a 'pump'.

**davesah1** · 05-20-2014, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Docd187123

So by your logic salt is necessary for muscular growth since after all it increases hydration....

Again by your logic creatine MUST be NECESSARY for muscular growth since it too increases cellular hydration....

Than you're cheating yourself of muscle growth, again by your own logic, since the little pink dumbbells WILL provide constant stress on the muscle and will most certainly provide a 'pump'.

Potassium increases intramuscular hydration, sodium increases subcutaneous hydration I thought??

**davesah1** · 05-20-2014, 07:45 PM

pump correlates to time under tension which correlates to growth. Additionally, you can't take one end of the argument to the extreme and say grab the "pink" dumbbells and not evaluate what results would be achieved from the opposite end of the spectrum... For example doin 1 rep max for all workouts (in which case I'd opt for the pink dumbells). There's always a sweet spot, when someone finds the perfect one lmk.

**tectime** · 05-20-2014, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Docd187123

So by your logic salt is necessary for muscular growth since after all it increases hydration.... Again by your logic creatine MUST be NECESSARY for muscular growth since it too increases cellular hydration.... Than you're cheating yourself of muscle growth, again by your own logic, since the little pink dumbbells WILL provide constant stress on the muscle and will most certainly provide a 'pump'.

I understand that your reader retention is not very high so read it all again, underline the words you don't know abc look them up, then read it all again and hopefully you will understand alittle better. I'm not trying to argue with you, I just hope that you can learn to read better cause it's a tough world out there and you seem quite lost. Salt, creatine, wtf are you even talking about junior, we have been talking about muscle growth not what you want to put on your French fries. I'm sure you are " happy " with your development so far so hey That's all that matters.

**hawk14dl** · 05-20-2014, 08:44 PM

I wish every one would read marcus' diary.

**Getlean007** · 05-20-2014, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by SEOINAGE

Maybe we define failure differently, but I don't think you ever have to go to complete failure to grow. Sure you can do it, but I almost never do. And I think you could train short of failure your whole lifting career and still make progress, it isn't a determining factor imo.

It seems logical that the more micro muscle fibers you tear, the more gains you will have; with proper recovery, of course.

**tectime** · 05-21-2014, 02:39 AM

Very logical indeed !

**Score** · 05-21-2014, 04:42 AM

Why doesn't anyone mention tempo? I've broken through every plateau during my 4 week hyper stage which reps in the 12-15 range with a 4-1-1 tempo on bench for instance. 4 being the decline, 1 second hold.

Strength stage reps 7-9 with 3-1-0 increased tempo

Power stage reps 1-5 with 1-0-0 tempo

I thought hyper was all about tempo???

**SEOINAGE** · 05-21-2014, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by Getlean007

It seems logical that the more micro muscle fibers you tear, the more gains you will have; with proper recovery, of course.

Way too many other factors, and looking how it can take two weeks to full recover, you could have one program with more frequency that doesn't go to failure end up tearing more muscle fibers in total over time. Can't just blanket that statement as being superior like that.

**Getlean007** · 05-21-2014, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by SEOINAGE

Way too many other factors, and looking how it can take two weeks to full recover, you could have one program with more frequency that doesn't go to failure end up tearing more muscle fibers in total over time. Can't just blanket that statement as being superior like that.

True, im just being general about it.

**tectime** · 05-21-2014, 06:53 AM

Really it boils down to what works best for the individual goals and desires we all are working for. It takes time on the weights to really know what works cause you are right on saying too many factors and routines need to be given proper length of time to see how it's working. I know what works for me You know what works for you Alls good in the world like I said earlier if you are happy (generalization) with the results you are seeing then thats all they really matters.

**ghettoboyd** · 05-21-2014, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Docd187123

You grow the same way lifters have grown for decades ow without concerning themselves with the pump. Pump /= growth and isn't even a good indicator of growth. I'm not saying it's worthless as there is some evidence it may indeed help indirectly but to say you need a pump to force growth is not accurate.

i hear you my friend but we will have to agree to diss agree on this as I've been training for roughly 20 years the last 10 consistently and although I change up my routine often I fell I get better results with more volume...the point I was making was most peeps never even attempt to use a more managae wait for which they can use full rom and get that intense mind to muscle connection and achive a decent pump instead they use to heavy a weight and in my opinion achive very little from it...that's just my opinion that a good pump will help stretch the facia and allow for more growth but I'm not a doctor I just know what works for me...that being said I also enjoy the pain but also incorporate Hitt training as we'll to mix thing up...to each there own bro...respect...

**Getlean007** · 05-21-2014, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by ghettoboyd

i hear you my friend but we will have to agree to diss agree on this as I've been training for roughly 20 years the last 10 consistently and although I change up my routine often I fell I get better results with more volume...the point I was making was most peeps never even attempt to use a more managae wait for which they can use full rom and get that intense mind to muscle connection and achive a decent pump instead they use to heavy a weight and in my opinion achive very little from it...that's just my opinion that a good pump will help stretch the facia and allow for more growth but I'm not a doctor I just know what works for me...that being said I also enjoy the pain but also incorporate Hitt training as we'll to mix thing up...to each there own bro...respect...

Respect, bro