Back to the drawing board

**< <Samson> >** · 05-22-2014, 09:58 PM

I am on my second gyno flare up. The first came a few weeks after I came off a low dose of tren & test. I stayed on the test @ a TRT dose of 175mg per week.

Now, I have a another one. My e spiked 72 hours after starting tren ace & switching over to test prop. For the month before I started the tren ace I was already on 500mg of test enan & sDrol. I started pumping 70mg of prop & 100mg of TA.

Right now, I jumped right back on the letro. I know what it does & I know the options of reversing and stopping the high e & its symptoms.

My question is; How do I keep it off? What ai should I try next? I have heard of people staying on letro. It def stops that shit near on a dime for me. But, I get one neg side. My libido died last time & took a while to come back.

I know there is no 100% to aas use, but this shit sucks. Since I ran way more before without any issues. But, I see shit can change I suppose

**austinite** · 05-22-2014, 10:03 PM

Try a SERM instead, Sam. You'll fix the problem and won't have to worry about libido issues.

I want my giraffe back.

**< <Samson> >** · 05-22-2014, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

Try a SERM instead

Raloxifine?

How fast does it act? I was thinking about this - But, I already have the Letrozole on hand. I didn't wanna let this shit just be at all

**austinite** · 05-22-2014, 10:15 PM

Not super fast, but instead of targeting all e2 like Letro, it will target breast tissue directly. You'll notice a difference in 4 weeks, if you caught it soon enough, 6 to 8 weeks and you're done.

Raloxifene is my preferred choice. Tamoxifen /Nolvadex a very close second.

**< <Samson> >** · 05-22-2014, 10:20 PM

That's very slow acting

But, either way - after it's gone, wtf do I do to keep it down & away?

Just run a heavier Ai? If so what & how much? I was taking the stane @ 12.5mg Qd when this shit just flared

**Chicagotarsier** · 05-22-2014, 11:00 PM

Are you naturally gyno prone? Naturally high E2?

Tren is a non-aromatizing compound. Everyone is different but Tren has a double bond at 19 that prevents it from conversion. This is scientific fact.

I would point at being on test E (long ester) for a month and building to peak (700-800 or so level due to long ester) then starting to shoot prop immediately at 2-300 would push you to 1000-1100 range for that snapshot in time. You did not say what your Test Prop dose was (and frequency) so I assumed That is my thoughts as to "why" it might have occurred. As to fixing it Austin is the man with the plan.

**< <Samson> >** · 05-22-2014, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by Chicagotarsier

Are you naturally gyno prone?

Never, had an issue - Just the last time & now

Originally Posted by Chicagotarsier

Naturally high E2?

No clue, I have never had my e numbers pulled. I never needed it, last time I figured it was from prolonged tren e use

Originally Posted by Chicagotarsier

I would point at being on test E (long ester) for a month and building to peak (700-800 or so level due to long ester) then starting to shoot prop immediately at 2-300 would push you to 1000-1100 range for that snapshot in time. You did not say what your Test Prop dose was (and frequency) so I assumed That is my thoughts as to "why" it might have occurred. As to fixing it Austin is the man with the plan.

That's what I figured, it spiked at the peak of test within the system. But, @ the same time I upped my Ai dose. Before I was running it eod

**Chicagotarsier** · 05-23-2014, 02:29 AM

That sucks man.
So the lesson from what is posted in notes and threads would be

E spike due to the Test change.

Tren then gave prolactin gyno via Estrogen to Prolactin conversion.

Originally Posted by < <Samson> >

Never, had an issue - Just the last time & now

No clue, I have never had my e numbers pulled. I never needed it, last time I figured it was from prolonged tren e use

That's what I figured, it spiked at the peak of test within the system. But, @ the same time I upped my Ai dose. Before I was running it eod

**austinite** · 05-23-2014, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by < <Samson> >

That's very slow acting

But, either way - after it's gone, wtf do I do to keep it down & away?

Just run a heavier Ai? If so what & how much? I was taking the stane @ 12.5mg Qd when this shit just flared

Yeah you can run higher AI or use a SERM on cycle.

25 is the lease I would use with aromasin .

**< <Samson> >** · 05-24-2014, 03:46 PM

How is Ralox as far as side effects? I heard it can take away from bone density

Anything else?

I jumped back on the Letro, this time the gyno BS was way worse than the first. But, seems to be mostly gone now. I am running Nolvadex right now also. And plan on coming off the letro within a few days since I am starting to feel like complete shit.

**Buster Brown** · 05-24-2014, 04:59 PM

I have used ralox before and found it to be quite pleasent in comparison to letro or clomid (no mood swings or feeling like shite). I have used nov for gyno flare up and have done well despite it being slow acting while still being able to have a productive cycle.

**austinite** · 05-24-2014, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by < <Samson> >

How is Ralox as far as side effects? I heard it can take away from bone density

Anything else?

I jumped back on the Letro, this time the gyno BS was way worse than the first. But, seems to be mostly gone now. I am running Nolvadex right now also. And plan on coming off the letro within a few days since I am starting to feel like complete shit.

No side effects from Ralox.

Did you play with your boobies when you had them? I'm curious.

**VegasBody** · 05-24-2014, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

No side effects from Ralox. Did you play with your boobies when you had them? I'm curious.

Naughty naughty boys

**< <Samson> >** · 05-25-2014, 08:58 AM

Shit, I still have them.

My estro is crashed & feel like complete shit.

I have no clue how it is possible, but I guess anything is. My bitch tits are the most painful yet & seem to be the biggest yet. But, my e has to be crashed by now from the letro. I feel tired as fvck 24x7 & barely function.

I don't see many other options other than coming off the gear completely.

**Megalodon6** · 05-25-2014, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by austinite

Not super fast, but instead of targeting all e2 like Letro, it will target breast tissue directly. You'll notice a difference in 4 weeks, if you caught it soon enough, 6 to 8 weeks and you're done.

Raloxifene is my preferred choice. Tamoxifen/Nolvadex a very close second.

How long can someone wait before ralox wont have any effect on reversing gynecomastia . And if ralox wont work and the tissue has hardened can someone use an AI like letro to reverse it. Or is surgery the only way out.

Originally Posted by < <Samson> >

How is Ralox as far as side effects? I heard it can take away from bone density

Anything else?

I jumped back on the Letro, this time the gyno BS was way worse than the first. But, seems to be mostly gone now. I am running Nolvadex right now also. And plan on coming off the letro within a few days since I am starting to feel like complete shit.

Good luck man. Keep this thread updated curious to see how this turns out

**austinite** · 05-25-2014, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Megalodon6

How long can someone wait before ralox wont have any effect on reversing gynecomastia. And if ralox wont work and the tissue has hardened can someone use an AI like letro to reverse it. Or is surgery the only way out

No telling. Depends on the severity, how fast it developed, etc... Raloxifene has been shown impactful years later.

Letro is not going to fix the problem, ever. Everyone really just needs to forget about Letrozole with respect to gynecomastia . It does not go away, no matter what anyone has ever said. It comes back and it comes back strong when you use letro.

**< <Samson> >** · 05-25-2014, 09:41 AM

I guess my plan ATM is run the letro into the ground until the ralox gets here. Then run the ralox throughout

Just don't know how I should treat this cycle. I'm only in 350mg a week of test along with 400mg of tren ace.

**Megalodon6** · 05-25-2014, 09:46 AM

Learned that the hard way I had a gyno flare up about two years ago jumped on letro gyno went away got off had estrogen rebound and it came back worse (should've educated myself). Now currently trying to get rid of it using ralox hoping for the best.

**Megalodon6** · 05-25-2014, 09:47 AM

Try a serm on cycle.

Originally Posted by < <Samson> >

I guess my plan ATM is run the letro into the ground until the ralox gets here. Then run the ralox throughout

Just don't know how I should treat this cycle. I'm only in 350mg a week of test along with 400mg of tren ace.

**< <Samson> >** · 05-25-2014, 09:52 AM

Shit, seems almost like a waist if tren . Went to the gym yesterday & almost fell asleep on a bench.

It's the strangest shit I have experienced yet

**numbere** · 05-25-2014, 09:59 AM

I've read that .25mg or less of letro will drop E levels 98%+. What dosage are you taking?

**Buster Brown** · 05-25-2014, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by < <Samson> >

I guess my plan ATM is run the letro into the ground until the ralox gets here. Then run the ralox throughout Just don't know how I should treat this cycle. I'm only in 350mg a week of test along with 400mg of tren ace.

If u are cutting ride it out, if you are bulking then ur just not going to make the gains and prob should start pct. had the same thing happen during a lean bulk and hopped on nov. Finished the cycle and just ran nov at 20 mgs (after a 1 week frontload ) right through pct.

**< <Samson> >** · 05-25-2014, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by numbere

I've read that .25mg or less of letro will drop E levels 98%+. What dosage are you taking?

I am up to 1mg as of today, highest was .5 so far

Was planning this to be a summer cut.

What's the dose I should run the ralox at?

Also, fine my estro is thrashed and I feel awful. But, why are my moobies still achy?

**numbere** · 05-25-2014, 10:46 AM

According to Jimmy's sticky rolax dosage for gyno on cycle is 60mg/day week 1, 30mg/day week 2+

Off cycle 120mg/day week 1, 60mg/day week 2+

**< <Samson> >** · 05-25-2014, 12:05 PM

Really, higher when off cycle? I would think it'd b the other way around.

**numbere** · 05-25-2014, 12:12 PM

I said the same thing to myself. Wouldn't hurt to send jimmy a PM about it, seems like he did a ton of research before composing the thread.

**< <Samson> >** · 05-25-2014, 04:57 PM

I looked into the dosing. Seems like there are different ways to go about it. I think I'm gonna start it pretty high as soon as I get it in. Then taper down.

P.S. I feel like complete shit yet my libido is still fairly high. Out of all shit, that's still good - go figure

**Cuz** · 05-25-2014, 05:20 PM

Hate that buddy. Never had these problems before but I would run some nolva alongside my ai on cycle just to keep it in check. Keep us posted.

**Rusty11** · 05-25-2014, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by < <Samson> >

I don't see many other options other than coming off the gear completely.

I know you're a seasoned, knowledgeable guy. Hoping that if things don't improve, you'll really consider this option...at least until things get back to normal.

p.s., I've read a lot of your posts and this is the last thing you wanna do.

**< <Samson> >** · 05-25-2014, 07:24 PM

Hell nah I don't wanna come off. But, it's life - could be worse. We have to accept responsibility for this shit. Throwing this shit into our body sometimes can cause some unwanted side effects. Man boobs is def one

I'll try every possible method first. If I don't see results, it will be my last option.

So far u have high hopes for the raloxifine. I have read a lot of good info on it & hopefully this goes well.

Running the letro now & it seems also way worse than last time. When I ran it the first time the only side I got was loss if libido. But, I wasn't running tren , sDrol or this dose of test.

I'll run the letro in the typical ramping up & tapering down method. Start the ralox as soon as I get it in the next couple of days.

Dropped my gear doses down just a little. Just seems so waist full. I can't do shit due to this extreme lethargy & my bones hurt. This is the worst I have felt, never felt this sick. Even coming off anything. I can barely move my wrists. It feels like either the bones hurt or the ligaments just ache.

Now I see what the old schoolers meant don't drop your estro. But, I don't understand why the last time wasn't nowhere near as bad. Same exact meds from the same bottle.

**< <Samson> >** · 05-26-2014, 10:05 AM

Aight, I'm at full dose of Letro as of today of 2.5mg. How should I carry this on?

I was thinking of tapering down in .5mg increments, when I get down to the last .5mg start the Ralox. Carry the the Letro at .25mg for a few days then jump back on to the Stane at 12.5mg Qd for a week then drop to 12.5mg eod.

Sound fair? Any other suggestions?

**< <Samson> >** · 05-28-2014, 10:04 PM

Bump

I am dropping the letro .5mg per day. Today was 2.0g's flat

The Ralox will be here either tomorrow or the next day. Should I jump on while still on the Letro?

I feel pretty rough, it's kinda like a come down from some serious shit. Kinda dizzy & achy at time along with random lethargy & shit that feels like hot flashes - I would love to end this as soon as possible.

My moobs still have a tad bit of pain when pushed directly on the nipple. No other BS, no puffiness any more at all.

The shit underneath that gives the little remaining pain feels like a enlarged lymph node. Not really round, but more elongated and attached feeling to the muscle tissue or whatever else is in there.

Yet, my strength is slightly up even with my current IIFM cal deficit diet. But, I feel weak most of the time. I push through the gym sessions, I could just sleep all day.

**< <Samson> >** · 06-07-2014, 08:42 AM

For anyone that searches Ralox & Gyno or Letro & Gyno

This seems to have worked quite well. The Letro stopped the shit from getting any worse & the Ralox straight shot this shit down.

I have been on the Raloxifine for about a week. Started at 75mg per day for the first 2 days. Then dropped to 50mg per day. Shit is straight dormant or gone. No new growth can be felt at all. I just feel shit that was there over a year ago. No pain, no nothing. Also my chest fat tissue seems to be at its flattest. But, this also may be due to my recent weight loss.