2ND Cycle - Test Deca, Mid Cycle No Weight Gain But I'm Leaning Out

[Papercut117]

I'm a 25 year old male with 4 years lifting experience, weighing 187lbs currently at approximately 6,1ft in height.

First cycle was Test E 500mg EW and gained a solid 22lbs in lean muscle last year and kept all of it since then. Im currently on my second cycle of Test E 500mg EW + Deca 400mg EW, 6 weeks into a 12 week cycle.

The moment I started this cycle, I stopped dirty bulking, cleaned up my diet and started tracking macros. Currently taking in Carb 390G, Protein 201G, Fats 106G.

For the past 6 weeks, I've noticed that I'm much leaner, looking better in mirrors, fitting into jeans easier and most importantly getting more vascular in my arms, veins that were never there before are now visible, better definition around the chest and shoulders especially. I strongly believe that my gear is good as strength is off the charts and joints feel great. What I need to know is, am I really leaning out and is no weight gain during a powerful cycle like this due to that fact that my fat loss and lean muscle gains are cancelling each other out?

My weight has remained exactly the same since the beginning of this cycle. Is this normal for someone taking this sort of approach towards a cycle? Should I maintain my calories and macro as I'm currently losing fat and gaining weight or should I up my intake? Abs are not visible.

Really need some help here guys.

[shaunjohn242002]

Man deca is a bitch on the natural test levels. I believe it's the reason I'm on trt now. Tried two pct protocols in over a year and test always fell way low. Hope you do better than me on recovery. It's all about your goals man. If you like the results so far than keep it up.should be gaining some weight at 3000 calories at 187 unless your extremely active. Don't buy into bulking or cutting steroids . I'm on dbol , 200mg mast, 500 deca and my trt test a week and I've got spiderwebs all over my arms and chest. Concentrate on your goals and place a diet plan that will get u there. Check out the diet section here and you'll see some good ideas.

[oldnsedentary]

Assuming your gear is good, up your calories. I would suggest upping protein from 201g to 300g.

Keep in mind something about Deca . It is slow acting. At 6 weeks, it is just barely getting started. A month after you stop it, you will still be making Deca gains.

[oldnsedentary]

My weight has remained exactly the same since the beginning of this cycle. Is this normal for someone taking this sort of approach towards a cycle? Should I maintain my calories and macro as I'm currently losing fat and gaining weight or should I up my intake? Abs are not visible.

Let me back up. After re-reading your post, I guess I needed to figure out first your answer to this question, "What do you want from your cycle?"

You are concerned with two things - no weight gain and abs not visible.

You need to decide and work on one or the other. Those are competing goals, and the path to each is not the same.

If you are not gaining weight, and you want to gain weight, then you need to add calories. Plain and simple. As I suggested, I would start with increasing your protein (adding two chicken breasts a day, or one chicken breast and 8 eggs to whatever you are eating would be a good plan).

If you want to get ripped, then cut those carbs. Maybe even consider carb cycling.

Your diet will determine your outcome. You are taking a lot of gear for a second cycle. It will work. You just need to match your diet to your goals.

If you continue on your current path, then you will get a little stronger and a little leaner. Ho, hum.

Be severe and extreme. Either gain or cut. Decide and get to it.

[musclestack]

Let me see if I'm gathering all this information correctly. From your first cycle, you gained 22 lbs and kept all of it. Your abs are not visible. Were they visible before your first cycle? What I'm getting at is you started your first cycle at 6'1" and 165 lbs. This tells me your diet is most likely the problem here.

[itsjayman02]

I'm a 25 year old male with 4 years lifting experience, weighing 187lbs currently at approximately 6,1ft in height.

First cycle was Test E 500mg EW and gained a solid 22lbs in lean muscle last year and kept all of it since then. Im currently on my second cycle of Test E 500mg EW + Deca 400mg EW, 6 weeks into a 12 week cycle.

The moment I started this cycle, I stopped dirty bulking, cleaned up my diet and started tracking macros. Currently taking in Carb 390G, Protein 201G, Fats 106G.

For the past 6 weeks, I've noticed that I'm much leaner, looking better in mirrors, fitting into jeans easier and most importantly getting more vascular in my arms, veins that were never there before are now visible, better definition around the chest and shoulders especially. I strongly believe that my gear is good as strength is off the charts and joints feel great. What I need to know is, am I really leaning out and is no weight gain during a powerful cycle like this due to that fact that my fat loss and lean muscle gains are cancelling each other out?

My weight has remained exactly the same since the beginning of this cycle. Is this normal for someone taking this sort of approach towards a cycle? Should I maintain my calories and macro as I'm currently losing fat and gaining weight or should I up my intake? Abs are not visible.

Really need some help here guys.

I stopped reading after i seen you kept 22lb on cycle so in effect you was 165lb before your cycle.

Your issue is calories so whatever your consuming keep increasing by 300cals every week until you start to add weight....no steriod can replace a good diet.

[Papercut117]

Thanks all. Sorry I didn't mention this earlier but my goal right now is to lean bulk. Ripping up and having visible abs is a secondary concern which I can look into post cycle. Let's scrap that plan for now and focus on lean bulk.

Oldnsedentary - I suppose you're asking me to hit around 1.5g of protein per pound of bodyweight rather than 1ish g of protein I'm taking in right now. May I ask why do you suggest that I up my calories by taking more protein rather than carbs? You also mentioned that by staying on my current path, I'll get leaner which means I'm on a cut (correct me if I'm wrong).

I'll take the advice many has suggested here - increasing calories as that is inline with my goal. What I don't want is to go back to the bodyfat levels I was at pre cycle. Diet wise, before I started tracking macros, I was exceeding my Carb intake by 80-100g, Protein was slightly under 200g and Fat was under about 10g, so yeah diet wasn't really great then but because it fluctuated a lot I did make some gains over the years. Now that I've refined my diet and increasing calories with extra protein meals, how will this affect my weight gain and bodyfat levels? How much weight can I expect to gain each week with an extra 100g of protein calories?

[oldnsedentary]

Thanks all. Sorry I didn't mention this earlier but my goal right now is to lean bulk. Ripping up and having visible abs is a secondary concern which I can look into post cycle. Let's scrap that plan for now and focus on lean bulk.

Oldnsedentary - I suppose you're asking me to hit around 1.5g of protein per pound of bodyweight rather than 1ish g of protein I'm taking in right now. May I ask why do you suggest that I up my calories by taking more protein rather than carbs? You also mentioned that by staying on my current path, I'll get leaner which means I'm on a cut (correct me if I'm wrong).

I'll take the advice many has suggested here - increasing calories as that is inline with my goal. What I don't want is to go back to the bodyfat levels I was at pre cycle. Diet wise, before I started tracking macros, I was exceeding my Carb intake by 80-100g, Protein was slightly under 200g and Fat was under about 10g, so yeah diet wasn't really great then but because it fluctuated a lot I did make some gains over the years. Now that I've refined my diet and increasing calories with extra protein meals, how will this affect my weight gain and bodyfat levels? How much weight can I expect to gain each week with an extra 100g of protein calories?

You yourself posted in the first post that you are getting leaner. Yes, by staying on your current path, you will get leaner.

Up protein to 300g daily instead of 200g (and I am talking real protein here, chicken breasts, eggs, fish, not protein powder which may or may not have digestible protein claimed on the label). It will work wonders. I have problems adding muscle on cycle at only 200g daily.

If you still are not gaining weight, then take a look at increasing the carbs as well.

But first, get enough protein.

You are a drug enhanced athlete. The standard recommendations nutritionists give do not apply to you.

Try it for yourself and see what happens. If you have added no muscle in two weeks of forcing down 300g of solid food protein daily, come back and post that I am an idiot. I suspect that will not happen.

You might think about posting up your diet here (that is, what you eat and drink) and ask for recommendations for modifications. Just my two cents.

This is the very web site years ago that sorted out my diet and set me on the path to successfully making gains. I made a post in the diet section and people helped me get it right.

[Mr.BB]

If your growth window is closed you're done for this cycle. Or you though you would be gaining 20+ lbs each cycle.

A successful cycle (not for a newbie) is getting 5-10 lbs. Pros can get like 5 lbs in a year and be happy.

[mark woods]

So ur losing body fat and remaining the same weight so your recomping pretty well I'd say!!!as for eating 300g of protein it's ridiculous if you ask me your body can't use all that and doesn't need it...your kidneys won't thank you

[tbody66]

Sorry, I was confused at "I'm 25 and doing my second cycle"... I think you would be better served by posting diet and specific exercise program to maximize gains. I'm wagering you could have put on 30 more pounds of muscle naturally at your height and age before introducing steroids .

[Papercut117]

Training 5-Day Split

Monday - Chest
Barbell Bench Press - 4X8
Dumbbell Incline Press - 4X8
HammerStrength Isolated Machine Press - 4X8
Dumbbell Pullover - 4X8

Tuesday - Legs
Barbell Squat - 4X12
Leg Press 4X12
Leg Extension - 3X12
Leg Curl 3X12
Standing Calf Raises 8X15 (Small calves, trying to train this way, happy to hear comments on this)

Wednesday - Back
Deadlift - 4X8
Dumbbell Row - 4X8
HammerStrength Isolated Machine Row - 4X8
Lat Pulldown - 4X8

Thursday - Shoulder
Dumbbell Press - 4X8
Dumbbell Side Raise - 3X8
Barbell Front Raise - 3X8
Machine Rear Delt - 3X8
BB or DB Shrugs - 4X8
Upright Row - 4X8

Friday - Arms
Close-grip BB Bench Press - 4X8
Skull Crushers - 3X8
Weighted Dips - 3X8
Tricep Pulldown - 3X8
Barbell Curl - 3X8
Standing Dumbbell Curl - 3X8
Preacher Curl - 3X8
Hammer Curl - 3X8

Cardio - 20min sessions, 3 days a week.


Diet Re-calculated after I changed this a little over the week
CARB/PROTEIN/FAT

Morning
Oats 1 1/2 Cup - 220/38/16.5 (Too extreme? Its difficult to have big meals in the office working 9-5 hence higher carbs here)
8oz Milk - 12/8/8.3
Whey Protein - 3/22/2

Snack 1
Whey Protein - 3/22/2
Milk - 12/8/8.3
2 Bananas - 54/2.6/0.8

Lunch
6 Full Eggs - 0/36/12.6
1 PB Sandwich - 38/14/20.4

Snack 2 (Pre Workout)
2 PB Sandwich - 76/28/40

Snack 3 (Post Workout)
Whey Protein - 3/22/2

Dinner
2 Pcs Chicken Breast - 0/54.4/2.8
1tbsp Olive Oil - 0/0/13.5

Total - CARBS 421g / PROTEIN 255 / FATS 125.9
Total Calories - 1,684 + 1,020 + 1,133.1 = 3,837.1

*Will now add 1 extra chicken breast to Snack 1 bringing protein intake to 282.2g. Thinking of adding another protein shake to bring it to 300g.


I honestly don't see another way or time where I can add in solid protein meals hence why I go for more protein shakes for convenience sake. Now i'm thinking of increasing eggs from 6 to 10, starting eating 3 chicken breasts so I might die if I eat another 1. Can you please suggest what food and where can I fit them into my schedule. Happy to receive feedback on my diet and training too.

Oldnsedentary - Here's where the confusion happens, every site has different macro/calorie recommendations, AAS sites included. Hence why my daily intake may not appear to be up to what you guys think is right. I'd also like to mention that there's an actual bodybuilder in my gym, guy competes professionally and is huge, he told me that his current weight is 154lbs which was rather strange to me. How can a guy twice my size be weighing lesser than me. I also asked for diet tips and I was told that my diet is somewhat okay, this guy eats lesser carbs than me and protein intake is about the same. Don't really know if he's telling me the truth but then again he seems pretty genuine, keep in mind that he's ripped and huge.

Mark Woods - I was under the same impression too. Why take in more protein than what my body needs, any excess will be stored as fat anyway. But as Oldnsedentary mentioned, I should be hitting those figures, so confused again here. Plus, has my "growth window" passed already? I'm only halfway through my cycle.

[Papercut117]

Bump for visibility

[oldnsedentary]

Morning
Oats 1 1/2 Cup - 220/38/16.5 (Too extreme? Its difficult to have big meals in the office working 9-5 hence higher carbs here)
Add 8 eggs

Snack 1
Chicken breast (8-10 ounces) cup of brown rice, broccoli

Lunch
Chicken breast, cup of brown rice, spinach

Snack 2 (Pre Workout)
2 PB Sandwich - 76/28/40 (ok, I suppose, depending upon your body fat level and goals)

Snack 3 (Post Workout)
Whey Protein - 3/22/2 Your ONE shake of the day

Dinner
2 Pcs Chicken Breast - 0/54.4/2.8
1tbsp Olive Oil - 0/0/13.5
rice, veggie

Cottage Cheese before bed

Shakes are all well and good, but odds are you are not getting what you think you are from them. It is hard to fool protein with a chicken breast or an egg. Substitute fish or beef whenever you want and can afford. 8-10 ounces of meat.

[oldnsedentary]

If your growth window is closed you're done for this cycle. Or you though you would be gaining 20+ lbs each cycle.

A successful cycle (not for a newbie) is getting 5-10 lbs. Pros can get like 5 lbs in a year and be happy.

Growth window closed? He is 6-7 weeks into a cycle using Deca . He is just getting started.

[oldnsedentary]

his current weight is 154lbs which was rather strange to me. . . . this guy eats lesser carbs than me and protein intake is about the same. Don't really know if he's telling me the truth but then again he seems pretty genuine, keep in mind that he's ripped and huge.

It does not take a lot of carbs and protein to maintain 154 pounds.
I asked what your goals were, and you said clean bulk. You have not been gaining weight, which indicates not enough protein and calories. You have been relying on protein shakes. Most of the time, those shakes do not contain what they claim on the label. I suggest you eat more eggs and meat. Chicken breasts, steaks, fish . . .

Eat and grow.

Test and Deca will add size if you are working out hard and give your body sufficient protein and calories.

Make your meals the night before. Put them in big tupperware containers, and bring them with you.

[oldnsedentary]

Protein shakes - Forbes Welcome

For instance, test results showed “Giant Delicious Protein Blend” made by privately held Giant Sports contains only 12 grams of the 27 grams of “High Quality Protein” it advertises, only 44% of the stated amount. . . .

Similarly, a lab test of MusclePharm’s “Arnold Scharzenegger Series Iron Mass” revealed that just 19 of the promised 40 grams of protein were present, according to exhibits in the lawsuit.

[oldnsedentary]

https://fitnessrealitycheck.wordpres...powder-claims/

[oldnsedentary]

Another company claimed 27 grams of protein on the label, but tested out as containing only 12. Yet another company claimed 50 grams on the label. The actual amount? Nineteen grams.

https://www.**************/supplemen...trogen-spiking

[oldnsedentary]

In other words, Papercut117, you are probably getting nowhere near the 201 grams of protein daily that you thought, and here I am recommending 300 grams.

Eat meat.

[oldnsedentary]

Most of these amino acids are produced in China through the chemical synthesis of keratin, which is derived from throwaways like hair, feathers, fingernails, and fur, and thus sells for less than a dollar a pound.

Throw in 15 grams of real protein, spike it with 25 grams of cheap amino acids made from human hair and claim "40 grams of protein" on the label. Sound fair?

Quote from that last link

[oldnsedentary]

So ur losing body fat and remaining the same weight so your recomping pretty well I'd say!!!as for eating 300g of protein it's ridiculous if you ask me your body can't use all that and doesn't need it...your kidneys won't thank you

Kidneys are not harmed by 300g of protein a day. That's bullshit.

Also, this guy is not getting enough protein. Period. He is drinking a bunch of shakes all day. Other than dinner, all of his real food is carbohydrates and fat. This is hardly a recipe for success.

He is not getting anywhere near the 201 grams of protein he thinks he is getting by adding up the bullshit marketing claims on his powder concoctions.

My advice is try what I have recommended (300grams, real food, not bullshit powder) and report back in a month. If you still have not gained, then call me out.


This guy tried it. When a competitor told him to try 300 grams, he balked. "I thought that amount was astronomical." But he tried it anyway. Results?

During my first 3-weeks of eating 300 grams of protein and 225 grams of carbs I have lost a substantial amount of fat and gained muscle too. Improved definition or vascularly in my chest, shoulders, arms, and legs are noticeable. I am much harder than 3 weeks ago!

Too Much Protein?

To the OP: Give it a shot. Real food, not somebody's fingernails ground up in a container with bullshit marketing claims. Let us know how it goes. Am I all wet? Try it out and tell us!

[oldnsedentary]

My weight has remained exactly the same since the beginning of this cycle. Is this normal for someone taking this sort of approach towards a cycle? Should I maintain my calories and macro as I'm currently losing fat and gaining weight or should I up my intake? Abs are not visible.

Really need some help here guys.

Papercut, where'd ya go? Gaining weight?

[Papercut117]

Oldsedentary, sorry for late response, i've been busy for the past week and had no chance to respond. Read your advise though – implemented it and results are below.

I see your point on protein powers containing less protein than advertised and that i'm having a bunch of shakes all day which is insufficient. I took your advice, eating 4pcs (8oz each) of chicken breast a day along with 8eggs which easily brings my protein intake 240g + 48 = 288, then add up with the remaining stuff like protein shake, milk, peanut butter, easily on point or exceeding 300g's as you recommended. Please correct me if i'm wrong, nutrition data online shows that 8oz chicken breast contains 60g of protein, that's how I got the numbers above.

As for Carbs, I noticed that you've removed milk, 1 PB sandwich and bananas while replacing them with mostly brown rice and cottage cheese. Your carb intake reccomendation is roughly the same as what I am currently eating. May I ask why do you need me to swap out the carb meals rather than just sticking to what I already eat? For example, I like to eat oats with milk plus it makes it taste better. Cooking 3 additional cups of brown rice takes up more time to prepare and i’m not sure if I can eat the rice just plain. What is wrong with my current carb meals and why do you recommend brown rice and cottage cheese mainly?

To summarize, I can’t thank you enough for the advice you’ve given me so far. I’m not sure if its just in my head or the deca starting to kick in, but my weight has gone up 1kg or more last week, better pumps, definition (shoulders especially), filling up t-shirts even better and maybe not getting leaner but pretty sure fat gains are minimal as vascularity has increased, top abs slightly more visible this time around. In other words, I think your protein reccomendation has worked and I see clearly now that I have been getting no where near the protein amount I thought I was taking in earlier. What I thought was an overkill earlier, 300g of protein seems reasonable now because I think my body is using all of it or perhaps even needs more : ). Thanks again and I look forward to receiving feedback on the carb question. FYI – last shot of Deca this Wednesday and Test E will continue for another 2-4 weeks followed by PCT.