How to quickly bring lipids back to normal after a cycle - ?

[Java Man]

:
I just got my after cycle, pre-PCT blood work done, and my cholesterol is seriously flipped on it's head. What I need to know is what ancillaries will either help stabilize LDL/HDL ratio or if none will do that, which ones have the least negative effect on it during PCT?[/B]

Background:
I am 42yo.
Started lifting at 19 and continued to until I was 32. I started doing AAS at 22 or 23. I don't remember the exact year. I did about 5 or 6 cycles between age 23 and 30.
I was in excellent condition at 32, when I just stopped working out altogether. I was at 200lbs, about 10%bf. 6', 0" tall.
At age 42, I started lifting again. I posted before and after pics of the cycle I did in the "Results" forum last night.
I always get blood tests before, at mid point, and after a cycle. Then again a few month after PCT. I have been getting blood tests every 6 months since turning 40. (Standard lipid panel and urinalysis to check liver and kidney function) so I know what my baseline lipids should be.
I have been taking Simvastatin 20mg/ed for the past 2 years.

Values prior to this cycle:
HDL: 56
LDL: 222
Triglycerides: 213
Total Serum Chol: 290
BUN, AST, ALT, Glucose, Creatinine, NA, K, CL, TCO2 & Calcium all within range

Values at week 15, last week of AAS therapy:
HDL: 5
LDL: 247
Triglycerides: 307
Total Serum Chol: 313
NA, K, CL all a little below normal but that;s due to my diet having no added NA+CL in it.
BUN 23 (range = 8-21)
AST 52 (range 0-38)
ALT 56 (range 0-41)

Cycle:
Weeks 1-4
Dbol 50/mg/4 ed (4 x 12.5mg divided doses throughout the day)
Test E 500/mg wk (250mg x 1 e4d)

Weeks 5 - 10
Test E about 700/mg wk (250mg x 1 e3d) - since I was doing e3d, it's hard to calculate exact stable amount due to half-life of long ester. I could do the math but I think 700 is close enough)

Weeks 11 - 15
Test E 250mg e4d
Mast E 200mg e4d
Tren E 200mg e4d
HCG 1500 IU 1x only (this will be dropped to 500 IU/wk later)
Nolva 40mg ed (20mg x2 div.) - I didn't add nolva until this point because:
1. I don't get sides from test and
2. I didn't have any available. This was my first time with Tren and my first time with a nor-19 of any type.
This was my first time with Mast but not my 1st time with a DHT derivative. I don't get DHT sides either. I guess I'm lucky. Still got a full head o hair even though I used Sten quite a bit for strength in the 90's.

Weeks 16 - 21
HCG 500 IU/wk 1x weekly
Clomid 50/50/50/50/50/50
Nolva 40/40/20/20/20/20
Exemestane 25mg/d Weeks 16,18,20,22 to kill the E2 that may change depending on how the response is.
NAC 1.5g /day
Vitamin C 3g /day

I take a high potency MV daily, B-100 HP, B12 3000mcg, Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc/BCAA's/Whey Isolate and Fish Oil with CO-Q10 every day.

My diet is about 50/40/10. It varies a little from day to day. I can't eat the same damn things every day but I maintain that ratio.
No added salt, no fast food.
I don't plan to change the diet post cycle. That ratio works well for me.

I train 5 days per week - to complete failure. Never more than 1 hour except leg day where I usually go for 1.5 hours or so just due to sheer volume with legs. Can't get a complete workout in less than that.
I do not do cardio, but I will be starting cardio every day with week 16 through PCT and beyond. Until I want to bulk up again I will continue doing cardio.

Based on all of that, and if someone needs something more that I didn't list please just let me know.
-----

Is there something I could be doing an addition to taking Simvastatin and everything else above that could improve the speed at which my lipid profile recovers in the next 6 weeks?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[AD]

hi java
are you currently still taking your simvastatin? the lab results you posted, are they both done while you're on simva 20mg ed?

do you have any other cardiovascular risk factors? smoking, diabetes, blood pressure, family history of heart attack or stroke...

most dietician believe that red meat raises your chol more than white meat. and that a high fiber diet will help with chol. do you eat mostly beef/pork or mostly fish/chicken? do you eat lots of fruits and vege?

[Java Man]

Thanks for the reply. I am adding daily oatmeal to my morning egg whites and toast. My answers to your questions are in red within the quote below.

hi java
are you currently still taking your simvastatin? the lab results you posted, are they both done while you're on simva 20mg ed?

JM: Yes and Yes

do you have any other cardiovascular risk factors? smoking, diabetes, blood pressure, family history of heart attack or stroke...

JM: Just Hypertension, for which I take Propranolol 50mg/d but that has actually improved. My avg. S/D is 129/85 now. Doc may take me off the propranolol. No hereditary risk factors or history other than hypertension running in my family. The men have it, but live into 80's and 90's generally.

most dietician believe that red meat raises your chol more than white meat. and that a high fiber diet will help with chol. do you eat mostly beef/pork or mostly fish/chicken? do you eat lots of fruits and vege?

JM: I don't eat much red meat. Occasional ribeye or lean burger but my daily diet is egg whites, chicken, rice, veggies, fruits like oranges, grapes, bananas, a lot of quality fruit juice not cheap 10% juice 90% corn syrup I don't care for fish but take O3/CoQ fish oil sups.

Oh yeah and I eat pinto bean burritos a lot. I make them from scratch tho, not from taco bell or other fat food joint. Make my own refrieds from hard bagged pintos, mash then up with some water, no salt, onions and a little cheese rolled in a flour tortilla. I drink 3 - 4 gallons of 1% lowfat milk /wk too mixed with designer Whey.

[AD]

is the doc who looks after your bp also taking care of your chol?

i suggest you let the aas clear you system first and check your chol again after pct. but i think eventually you'll need to increase your simva to 40mg ed, cos even your pre-cycle readings aren't good. diet and cardio may help a little, but not much.

let your doc know your latest results. he may have to reconsider taking you off your bp meds, cos when you have 2 risk factors, you'll need to treat both more seriously than if you only had either one.

[Java Man]

Same doc. He's my pcp and he's a good doc. He also knows I have done AAS in the past. He does not know that I am currently on, but I hinted it and he understood which is why he ordered another panel 8 weeks after he saw this one. I told him those numbers might be teporary. He knew what I meant. He just isn't an endo nor does he know much about the effects of AAS in performance enhancing dosages. He is trusting my knowledge on that for the time being. I can't be open about it because my health insurance carrier would cancel my policy.

[Java Man]

BTW I did increase the simva to 30mg until I finish PCT.

[AD]

BTW I did increase the simva to 30mg until I finish PCT.

a slight increase is fine. or you could wait till your liver enzymes return to normal before adjusting the dose. either way, good luck. try to keep your bp lowish (near 110/70), so that you only have to worry about one problem at a time.

[Java Man]

Aye. Thank you for the insight. I know something my doctor doesn't, which is all of the above meds I am self administering. Unfortunately the atmosphere these days doesn't allow me to be completely open about it. I'm just glad were in tune enough that certain things don't make it into my permanent record yet he understands what I don't say by nuance and some 'off the record' discussion.

I don't think increasing the statin just 10mg will do any harm, but it may help with stabilizing the cholesterol a little quicker. I think the tren is responsible for the giant change in my profile but I can't be sure. Perhaps I should.reconsider using tren in the future. Test never threw my lipids off this much but I'm not 32 anymore either. Lots of variables here unfortunately. Doing my best to mitigate them where possible. I have some cialis that should arrive soon to help get my bp down more.

I'll keep checking back to see if anyone else has any ideas for something I have forgotten oor don't know about that may help more. The choice of aromasin over adex was in part due to the study posted here somewhere, I think MK posted it, that showed less effect on cholesterol than adex Also because its suicidal and I've got a lot of E2 floating around that I need gone permanently.

[Java Man]

P.S. If I have a heart attack or stroke while doing pct and trying to stabilize my cholesterol levels the very first thing I will do before calling EMS is log on here and update this thread.

[lovbyts]

Careful with statin drugs, they are known to damage muscles and tendons amongst other bad side effects that are common.
Statins also depletes your body of CoQ10

[Java Man]

The tendons in my elbows have been hurting lately. Damn. I'm going to do more research on statins. I don't see that I have much choice right now though. I made a choice to use AAS at 42 and I was carrying a lot of fat.

Thanks for the heads up. My eventual goal is to get off the statin too. The 10 yrs off That I took from training included poor diet. I've only.had my diet dialed back in for 6 months.

[AD]

All drugs have sides. You have to weigh the risks and benefits. I would suggest you aim for a LDL level of 130. If you can get there without meds, even better.

[Java Man]

Good advice. Thanks guys. I'm taking in very little fat and intend to keep it that way. I went through a period in life where I just stopped giving a shit, about anything, including my health. I have no doubt I can get off the meds. The first step was getting rid of all that blubber.

[Java Man]

Had bad sides from cialis. Major headaches, eyes bulged out and turned red. Also had pain behind the eyes. I looked like I smoked 10 joints. That was from 15mg/ed. Also my bp didn't change at all.

Thought some may find that interesting. No other reason for posting. It's real. Just not for me I guess.

[tdoe11]

My doc said my HDL and LDL were the worst she has seen in her career. I almost brought them completely back to a healthy range in less than 6 weeks. CARDIO! 45 mins a day I'm addition to lifting. Your cholesterol will be in check in a month dude.

[Java Man]

Thanks. I think it'll be fine. So does my doc. Getting another BT end of May. I'll post results here. I'll be completely clean and mostly done with pct by then. I was surprised by the flop. I know my numbers weren't very good to begin with but also knowing my own history and current fatso status after 10yr break from training chose to cycle anyways. Had good results. A lot leaner and still at 225ish. Just never had my HDL change that much. Next time I'm just doing test, see how my 42 numbers compare with what I'm used to seeing. Change is what I'm looking at, not raw numbers. 56 down to 5 blew my mind.

In addition to vitamins mentioned above I'm taking 2.5g C plus 3g NAC, which my pharmacist agreed with. Lots of water to flush out the kidneys, cardio being added.

[gymfu]

Yes, cardio is important.

I also recommend 2000mg/day of niacin. Get the flush free kind and you may have to up work up slowly.

[kelkel]

Agree with gymfu on the niacin but there's a way around the bad flush with Slo-Niacin. Not saying the flush is bad as it's actually what works for you:

Using Niacin to Improve Cardiovascular Health - Life Extension

[Java Man]

Awesome. Thanks. Will do.

[Java Man]

Agree with gymfu on the niacin but there's a way around the bad flush with Slo-Niacin. Not saying the flush is bad as it's actually what works for you:

Using Niacin to Improve Cardiovascular Health - Life Extension

Great article. My dr. didn't say anything about niacin, but he's not a cardiologist so probably one of the typical1985ers mentioned in it! I'll give him the link.

[gymfu]

I tried the slo niacin and just one tablet per day was giving pretty bad flushing. I switched to a capsule that says flush free and no problems. But like Kelkel said I'm not 100% its working.

[Java Man]

I like the flush. I need some sun anyways so I'll take red over butt white anyways I get that with b12 too.

Also been reading up on pde5i's and changed my mind on cialis. I didn't give my body any time to adjust and sucked it up from the bottom where the powder lives (liquid cia ar-r ) so got huge doses sure the few days I took it.

Been getting 5mg 2xd and feel fine now. I estimate I started at about 15-20mg 2xd becausE I didn't shake it first. No wonder I felt like crap.

[Spartans09]

Flush free niacin as compared to regular niacin may not be very effective. I will look around for the recent studies I've seen.

[Java Man]

Flush free niacin as compared to regular niacin may not be very effective. I will look around for the recent studies I've seen.

Cool. Thanks.

Gymfu, 2g of niacin? Daily? I have read that under medical supervision it can be safely taken up to 5g daily for short periods. I've been taking 500mg daily immediate release. Not enough to cause flushing but I'm a little scared to go higher. Is 2g/day relatively safe? I'm not getting any bad effect at all from 500mg.

[Java Man]

Getting new bt results in a few.days. I've been doing al of the things I originally posted as the plan, so depending on results I may just stay with what I'm doing. If there's only good things to be had from increasing niacin to 2g it's cheap, I can do that.

[jimmyinkedup]

Getting new bt results in a few.days. I've been doing al of the things I originally posted as the plan, so depending on results I may just stay with what I'm doing. If there's only good things to be had from increasing niacin to 2g it's cheap, I can do that.

Looking forward to seeing this blood work.

[Java Man]

Increased niacin to 1g in the morning taken all at once. That study showed that div doses may not be safe. Immediate release.

Picking up my bw tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

[Java Man]

Looking forward to seeing this blood work.

You and me both brother!

[ironbeck]

You should always do some cardio minimum 2x a week.

[Java Man]

Triglycerides: 111
HDL: 24
LDL: 155
Total Serum: 191

Oh yeah forgot- my bp is down to 130/85 on avg. It was 150/95 ish during the past few yrs.

AST/ALT not tested this time. They weren't far above normal so I guess my doc didn't see a need. I'll post the full battery of supplements I have been taking over the past 6 weeks later . I'm very impressed with these numbers. Will continue exactly what I'm doing now in the future. Most of it came from you guys so thank you

[kelkel]

Happy for you!

Remember ALT & AST can be elevated by muscle trauma as well. They can range up to 30% daily I believe. So, just working out can elevate them.

[Java Man]

Happy for you!

Remember ALT & AST can be elevated by muscle trauma as well. They can range up to 30% daily I believe. So, just working out can elevate them.

Thanks kel

So mid 50's is nbd. Usually both are in range. I get bt every 6 mos so I know what they are without gear. I was out of the gym for 10yrs so I expect my organs to fluctuate for a bit until my 'new' lifting, dietary and supplement routines become 'normal'

[Java Man]

Morning:
Vit C 1500 mg
Vit D3 600 IU
Vit B3 1000 mg
Vit B12 (PO) 3000 - 6000 mcg (depending on how I feel that day) for appetite
NAC 1800 mg
DHEA 25 mg (micronized)
Pregnenolone 50 mg (micronized)
ALA 800 mg
L-Arginine 2000 mg
L-Citrulline 3000 mg
ALCAR 1600 mg
Tadalifil 5 mg
Tamoxifen citrate 10 mg - 20 mg / alt. days
Aromasin 12.5 mg 3x week
HCG 400 IU every 2nd or 3rd day (sometimes I forget)

Evening / Pre-Workout:
Vit C 1500 mg
Vit D3 500 IU
Vit B3 1000 mg
Vit B12 (PO) 3000 - 6000 mcg (depending on how I feel that day) for appetite
NAC 1200 mg
DHEA 25 mg (micronized)
Pregnenolone 50 mg (micronized)
ALA 1200 mg
L-Arginine 2000 mg
L-Citrulline 3000 mg
ALCAR 2400 mg
Tamoxifen citrate 10 mg - 20 mg / alt. days (DailyTotal: 20mg eod / 40mg eod)
Tadalifil 5 mg

Before Bed:
Magnesium 640 mg
Calcium 1000 mg
Zinc 15mg
NAC 1200 mg
ALA 400 mg
L-Arginine 1000 mg
L-Citrulline 2000 mg
ALCAR 800 mg

BCAA's (from Whey and Casein) 800mg - 4500mg, varies
1 scoop morning(Casein), 1 pre-workout (Whey), 1 before bed (Casein). Mixed with 1% or 2% milk, not water.
Contains:
Histidine
Alanine
Isoleucine
Arginine*
Leucine
Asparagine
Lysine
Aspartic acid
Methionine
Cysteine*
Phenylalanine
Glutamic acid
Threonine
Glutamine*
Tryptophan
Glycine
Valine
Ornithine*
Proline*
Serine*
Tyrosine*

Adding:
Methylcobalamin inj. 1000 mg but don't have this yet (shit is expensive!)

[Bonaparte]

IDK if it was mentioned, but serms have a positive effect on lipids.

[Java Man]

IDK if it was mentioned, but serms have a positive effect on lipids.

Thanks. I'll look into that more. I was afraid to go 40mg on the nolva daily so decided to alternate 20 / 40 eod. The difference in lipids in just 6 weeks (actually closer to 5 weeks by draw dates) tells me I'm getting very good response from this whole supplement plan. Much better than I had expected in such a short period.

All other factors are the same. We're always growing with respect to training, diet, and supplementation so I can't say none of it had changed at all ie completely static. I do know that my path is leading to a very good place minor adjustments have been made along the way based on external response / how I feel. That list is what I am taking as of yesterday.

dietary factors:
include a cup of oatmeal mixed with fresh fruits every morning
Added a few egg yolks into my egg intake (approx 10 eggs daily, 5 yolks) whereas I was discarding all yolk before.
Increased fat calories, reduced carbs and protein (was 50/40/10 on cycle, now 40/40/20)
Since the liver manufactures cholesterol from fats I needed to increase fat intake from external sources as I lost quite a bit of my body fat on 50/40/10 plan

Any other suggestions on things not mentioned in my list that might help?

[Java Man]

Oh forgot to mention that my pct included clomid. Helped?

[pp186gr]

Hi guys, new to forum, very helpful topic, thank you Java Man! I'm female, 37 y.o my first cycle on var, my blood work doesn't look so good ether just like yours before even started. My NON HDL- 239, LDL- 218, TOTAL CHOLESTEROL 292, CHOL/HDLC RATIO 5.5

This is my first week so far of var, going to follow on your advices/suggestions what supplements to take to keep the levels at the same point at least for the cycle. Hopefully even reduce it.

[Mr.BB]

Hi guys, new to forum, very helpful topic, thank you Java Man! I'm female, 37 y.o my first cycle on var, my blood work doesn't look so good ether just like yours before even started. My NON HDL- 239, LDL- 218, TOTAL CHOLESTEROL 292, CHOL/HDLC RATIO 5.5

This is my first week so far of var, going to follow on your advices/suggestions what supplements to take to keep the levels at the same point at least for the cycle. Hopefully even reduce it.

Welcome! Post here to apply for pink status: http://forums.steroid.com/new-female...ale-forum.html

This is a 3 year old thread, havent seen Java in a while.

Your cholesterol will always look bad on cycle, just make sure it looks good off-cycle.

If you want to improve your cholesterol (lower LDL and rise HDL) you need to have good cardio, lower saturated fats and increase soluble fiber (ie fruits and vegetables).

[pp186gr]

These numbers was before my cycle. Thank you Mr.BB will follow link.