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Thread: No doubt about Nandrolone ( or other AAS ) cardiac damage

  1. #1
    Slacker78's Avatar
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    No doubt about Nandrolone ( or other AAS ) cardiac damage

    For those ones which think that Body Builder moderate AAS dosages do not hurt the heart.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...012?via%3Dihub
    Last edited by Slacker78; 03-23-2018 at 02:29 AM.

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    It's good reading, but I wouldn't base my entire belief system on it. It is somewhat ambiguous? In the end both groups of rats ended up with LVH whether exposed to nandrolone or not.
    Definitely good to read though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    It's good reading, but I wouldn't base my entire belief system on it. It is somewhat ambiguous? In the end both groups of rats ended up with LVH whether exposed to nandrolone or not.
    Definitely good to read though.
    Yes, but there's a difference: one is *physiological* LVH and the other is *pathological* LVH with the presence of collagene related to thickness of the left ventricle wall ( nandrolone-trained group ).

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    No doubt? On rats? With sky high heart bpm?

    Why animal studies are often poor predictors of human reactions to exposure: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2746847/

    Maybe you should have read some of the studies that were referenced by the author. The ones on humans. The author also incorrectly claims similar findings from another, similar study on humans-- but it was also on rats. Oops.

    Here's one they referenced that actually was on humans. How about dem apples:
    "In Study 1 eight weeks AAS self-administration did not result in changes of blood pressure or cardiac size and function. Additionally, duration of AAS self-administration did not have any impact on these parameters. Study 2 revealed that eight weeks administration of nandrolone decanoate did not induce significant alterations in blood pressure and heart morphology and function. Short-term administration of AAS for periods up to 16 weeks did not lead to detectable echocardiographic alterations of heart morphology and systolic and diastolic function in experienced strength athletes. The administration regimen used nor the length of AAS abuse did influence the results. Moreover, it is concluded that echocardiographic evaluation may provide incomplete assessment of the actual cardiac condition in AAS users since it is not sensitive enough to detect alterations at the cellular level. Nevertheless, from the present study no conclusions can be drawn of the cardiotoxic effects of long term AAS abuse." --Hartgens et al., 2003



    I have little doubt that AAS contributes to cardiac hypertrophy in humans-- that's just common sense. However your thread title is straight up fake news clickbait.

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    Well rats arent humans, why can they not do this study on humans?
    Plenty of people using nandrolone .

    Its well documented that using steroids can effect your heart.

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    Remember guys, we have members from all over the planet, so their English may be excellent, but the way things are worded may come across as odd to us (although that may not have been the intent).
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    Fake News

    Ha ha


    Not news 2 me - and these trials r nowhere near as valuable as real human trials could b - oh well

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    Quote Originally Posted by gb123 View Post
    Well rats arent humans, why can they not do this study on humans?
    Plenty of people using nandrolone .

    Its well documented that using steroids can effect your heart.

    Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
    I agree there's plenty of studies about nandrolone made on humans what's the point with rats

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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    I agree there's plenty of studies about nandrolone made on humans what's the point with rats
    The point is in case someone has any pet rats their trying to get huge and diced up.. they will know that deca is the unsafe choice for their pet..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernst View Post
    No doubt? On rats? With sky high heart bpm?

    Why animal studies are often poor predictors of human reactions to exposure: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2746847/

    Maybe you should have read some of the studies that were referenced by the author. The ones on humans. The author also incorrectly claims similar findings from another, similar study on humans-- but it was also on rats. Oops.

    Here's one they referenced that actually was on humans. How about dem apples:
    "In Study 1 eight weeks AAS self-administration did not result in changes of blood pressure or cardiac size and function. Additionally, duration of AAS self-administration did not have any impact on these parameters. Study 2 revealed that eight weeks administration of nandrolone decanoate did not induce significant alterations in blood pressure and heart morphology and function. Short-term administration of AAS for periods up to 16 weeks did not lead to detectable echocardiographic alterations of heart morphology and systolic and diastolic function in experienced strength athletes. The administration regimen used nor the length of AAS abuse did influence the results. Moreover, it is concluded that echocardiographic evaluation may provide incomplete assessment of the actual cardiac condition in AAS users since it is not sensitive enough to detect alterations at the cellular level. Nevertheless, from the present study no conclusions can be drawn of the cardiotoxic effects of long term AAS abuse." --Hartgens et al., 2003



    I have little doubt that AAS contributes to cardiac hypertrophy in humans-- that's just common sense. However your thread title is straight up fake news clickbait.
    "In Study 2 the effects of administration of nandrolone decanoate (200 mg/wk i. m.) for eight weeks..."

    200mg/week VS: nandrolone (5 mg/kg) was administered to Vehicle-treated (vehicle = propylene glycol) or Nandrolone Decanoate-treated rats (Deca -Durabolin ®, Organon, São Paulo, Brazil), twice a week, for 6 weeks as the study i posted told.

    So...if you do a simple calculation keeping in mind that a rat could weights ~250/300gr, are ~800mg/week, so almost a robust dose an AAS user could assume in a AAS cycle... very far from 200mg/week.

    Yes, the study is on a rats, but cardiac effects - especially nandrolone-related - on a humans are well documented also... you will tell... "and then ? You can damage your heart, if you don't want risk don't use them". But my thread was just speculative.
    Last edited by Slacker78; 03-24-2018 at 02:27 AM.

  11. #11
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    Wanted to reply but didn't have time, this is relevant to my interests

    AAS in general do enlarge the heart. So does bodybuilding and powerlifting type training, even sprinting, it's called athletes heart. There is tons and tons of research showing that AAS causes this but also lowers the ejection fraction, meaning the heart becomes less good at pumping blood.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker78 View Post
    Yes, but there's a difference: one is *physiological* LVH and the other is *pathological* LVH with the presence of collagene related to thickness of the left ventricle wall ( nandrolone-trained group ).
    Even in the human studies this is stated, not specific to nandrolone , just AAS in general. I learned most from this article:
    Long-Term Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Use Is Associated With Left Ventricular DysfunctionClinical Perspective | Circulation: Heart Failure
    Why, because it references to a lot of previous studies and compares the differences in the results with the differences of the subjects, here's a quote:
    Although several previous studies have reported mild cardiac dysfunction, LV dysfunction among our AAS users was more severe than previously reported. Several hypotheses might explain this discrepancy. First, our AAS users were several years older, on average, than those in 2 of the 3 most recent studies.10,12 Second, these previous studies selected top-level competitive bodybuilders,10 squad athletes,12 or individuals from bodybuilding studios,12 thus possibly favoring healthier individuals with better cardiac function than the largely noncompetitive individuals21 in our study.
    So if you do cardio the impact is less severe, but still a risk. This was discussed not so long ago regarding cardio during a cycle and I asked but didn't type exactly what I had in mind... perhaps it would be better to do slow and steady cardio on cycle and not HIIT? Just increase the hearts blood flowing capacity et.c.

    I think it's stupid to claim AAS won't do anything to your heart and naive. At least we can try and learn what to do and what to avoid. For example if you care about your health then why not use the least harsh compounds. Testosterone and nandrolone will enlarge the heart but are not atherogenic (they don't affect your lipids). While pretty much most orals are very bad for your lipids.

    Wreck your HDL and raise your LDL and you are speeding up plaque buildup in your arteries, couple that with a less efficient heart... The atherogenic effects of various AAS have been shown in studies from the 80s even! Yet people believe anavar is safe despite that it wrecks your lipids and doesn't do much in terms of gains lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cousinmuscles View Post
    Wanted to reply but didn't have time, this is relevant to my interests

    AAS in general do enlarge the heart. So does bodybuilding and powerlifting type training, even sprinting, it's called athletes heart. There is tons and tons of research showing that AAS causes this but also lowers the ejection fraction, meaning the heart becomes less good at pumping blood.

    Even in the human studies this is stated, not specific to nandrolone , just AAS in general. I learned most from this article:
    Long-Term Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Use Is Associated With Left Ventricular DysfunctionClinical Perspective | Circulation: Heart Failure
    Why, because it references to a lot of previous studies and compares the differences in the results with the differences of the subjects, here's a quote:

    So if you do cardio the impact is less severe, but still a risk. This was discussed not so long ago regarding cardio during a cycle and I asked but didn't type exactly what I had in mind... perhaps it would be better to do slow and steady cardio on cycle and not HIIT? Just increase the hearts blood flowing capacity et.c.

    I think it's stupid to claim AAS won't do anything to your heart and naive. At least we can try and learn what to do and what to avoid. For example if you care about your health then why not use the least harsh compounds. Testosterone and nandrolone will enlarge the heart but are not atherogenic (they don't affect your lipids). While pretty much most orals are very bad for your lipids.

    Wreck your HDL and raise your LDL and you are speeding up plaque buildup in your arteries, couple that with a less efficient heart... The atherogenic effects of various AAS have been shown in studies from the 80s even! Yet people believe anavar is safe despite that it wrecks your lipids and doesn't do much in terms of gains lol.
    Very interesting study. What miss to this study and similar other ones ( and the authors talk it about as limit ) is knowing with precision compounds used, assumption time and dosages. What we know with absolute certainty, is that AAS abuse HURT THE HEART and i know, this is not a new one. We also know that time exposure, dosages and specific compounds ( HGH, IGF-1, Orals etc.. ) could increase the chance of cardiac toxicity and getting serious heart damages. For this reason, i will always will be sticked to the lowest dosages for a brief time periods, just with Testosterone and Nandrolone, as i am on TRT. Getting big is not for me as i think that health comes first and i'm not disposed to pay an high price as irreversible health damage, just for a ton of muscles.

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    I knew I liked cardio for a good reason other than walk for an hour & check out chix

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    Quote Originally Posted by < <Samson> > View Post
    I knew I liked cardio for a good reason other than walk for an hour & check out chix
    Cardio does nothing, if you inject high dosages of gear for a long time period. Chemical is stronger than cardio.

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    damn?

    I thought this stuff was good for you and had vitamin c in it and stuff.

    time to ask for a refund from source and throw stash in refuse container

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    Quote Originally Posted by m.hornbuckle View Post
    damn?

    I thought this stuff was good for you and had vitamin c in it and stuff.

    time to ask for a refund from source and throw stash in refuse container
    Some are curious as to how the damage is done and how to lessen the impact... No need to be sarcastic bro we all know that long term use will have it's consequences

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    Quote Originally Posted by cousinmuscles View Post
    Some are curious as to how the damage is done and how to lessen the impact... No need to be sarcastic bro we all know that long term use will have it's consequences
    The truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m.hornbuckle View Post
    damn?

    I thought this stuff was good for you and had vitamin c in it and stuff.

    time to ask for a refund from source and throw stash in refuse container
    AAS are powerful stuff. Vitamins are farts if compared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m.hornbuckle View Post
    damn?

    I thought this stuff was good for you and had vitamin c in it and stuff.

    time to ask for a refund from source and throw stash in refuse container
    AAS are powerful stuff. Vitamins are farts compared. Do less, live longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cousinmuscles View Post
    Some are curious as to how the damage is done and how to lessen the impact... No need to be sarcastic bro we all know that long term use will have it's consequences
    I'd venture to say conservative use.

    the average human will always go more mote more.

    to the point he's calling a 750 mg test, 500mg tren , 300 mg deca and 800mg primo cycle mild.

    I think if we check our human nature and keep it at doses that are just effective and not overblown , it can be minimized.



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    Quote Originally Posted by m.hornbuckle View Post
    I'd venture to say conservative use.

    the average human will always go more mote more.

    to the point he's calling a 750 mg test, 500mg tren , 300 mg deca and 800mg primo cycle mild.

    I think if we check our human nature and keep it at doses that are just effective and not overblown , it can be minimized.



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    Unfortunately the studies report these sides at mild doses and a little higher dosages produced seemingly the same results in regards to the changes in the heart.

    Agreed if it wasn't for the group of people in this forum opening my eyes I would have gone that route too. But if you just learn some things to know what they mean, like lipid values, liver values, RBC etc you get a slap in the face and see that what you did will take a long time to recover from. At least you have a more informed viewpoint (at least MORE informed than without the info) and know to a higher degree what the consequences are, then you can realize its unnecessary. Test and nandrolone is what I'll stick to and document results and up doses only if it proves to be worth it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cousinmuscles View Post
    Unfortunately the studies report these sides at mild doses and a little higher dosages produced seemingly the same results in regards to the changes in the heart.

    Agreed if it wasn't for the group of people in this forum opening my eyes I would have gone that route too. But if you just learn some things to know what they mean, like lipid values, liver values, RBC etc you get a slap in the face and see that what you did will take a long time to recover from. At least you have a more informed viewpoint (at least MORE informed than without the info) and know to a higher degree what the consequences are, then you can realize its unnecessary. Test and nandrolone is what I'll stick to and document results and up doses only if it proves to be worth it.
    Time exposure, it's the biggest variable that make difference, regardless dosages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker78 View Post
    Time exposure, it's the biggest variable that make difference, regardless dosages.
    Short esters and make sure you are close to the point of overtraining during cycles, lesson from that
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    Quote Originally Posted by cousinmuscles View Post
    Short esters and make sure you are close to the point of overtraining during cycles, lesson from that
    Do you mean being close to point of overtraining is healthy while on AAS cycle, in this sense ?
    Last edited by Slacker78; 03-26-2018 at 10:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker78 View Post
    Do you mean being close to point of overtraining is healthy in this sense ?
    To the point of rhabdomyolysis, of course not. But very hard, close to the point where you start doubting if you will get rid of the fatigue until next training. Training experience matters a lot here so you know how much workload you can handle.

    It's called delayed transformation. It's when you train just above your normal training volume/intensity such that you need a deload week to recover, but the results are greater than training at normal.

    Point I wanted to make is make sure you go as hard as you can during the cycles and not cut yourself short
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    Ok so what's you point bro? You want us to stop using gear lol? If you're not willing to accept the health risks of steroids then don't do them, it's that simple. Thank you for sharing but I think most of us already know there is risk involved.

    There are a variety of factors that influence ones level of risk.. Genetics, dosages, diet, and training frequency and intensity are some commonly known factors. There are guys from the 70's who were jacked and shredded, ran lots of gear for many years, who are perfectly healthy still...even in their old age. There are others who are dead or had major heart surgery.

    That's why I stress the importance of your REASON for using gear in the first place. The risk may not be worth it if you're just trying to look good for a music festival lol...but if one is looking to compete or build a career around their physique then the risk makes more sense..

    To each their own.. Another reason why we tell people to wait until they're fully mature. Not just because of the damage to the endocrine system, but also that you're mature enough to make an educated decision and understand the risks involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaMindz View Post
    Ok so what's you point bro? You want us to stop using gear lol? If you're not willing to accept the health risks of steroids then don't do them, it's that simple. Thank you for sharing but I think most of us already know there is risk involved.

    There are a variety of factors that influence ones level of risk.. Genetics, dosages, diet, and training frequency and intensity are some commonly known factors. There are guys from the 70's who were jacked and shredded, ran lots of gear for many years, who are perfectly healthy still...even in their old age. There are others who are dead or had major heart surgery.

    That's why I stress the importance of your REASON for using gear in the first place. The risk may not be worth it if you're just trying to look good for a music festival lol...but if one is looking to compete or build a career around their physique then the risk makes more sense..

    To each their own.. Another reason why we tell people to wait until they're fully mature. Not just because of the damage to the endocrine system, but also that you're mature enough to make an educated decision and understand the risks involved.
    Agree 100% and what you said is what the thread is about too. But you have to know what risks exactly there are and what you can control vs what you can't. The one I referenced to showed that those who followed a healthy lifestyle (can't go through it again right now but I believe it was regarding cardio and diet, most likely is) the impact is less severe but still there. There are other factors you can eliminate though...

    WB btw how is your cycle going?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cousinmuscles View Post
    Agree 100% and what you said is what the thread is about too. But you have to know what risks exactly there are and what you can control vs what you can't. The one I referenced to showed that those who followed a healthy lifestyle (can't go through it again right now but I believe it was regarding cardio and diet, most likely is) the impact is less severe but still there. There are other factors you can eliminate though...

    WB btw how is your cycle going?
    Thanks brotha yeah been neck deep in work at the office so haven't had time to be on here. Cycle is going well...So I don't hijack thread I'll post an update here in a bit..Brief update though I've now entered a bulking phase and added Nandrolone so dedicating the next 3 months to adding shear mass now that I've successfully reached my goals for recomp.

    Wanted to mentioned regarding your reply.. I agree doing cardio and taking in the necessary nutrients will have a massive impact on the way your body responds to AAS as well as just general state of one's health if one wasn't even on gear.

    I'm willing to bet there are people ON steroids that are healthier than people who DON'T do steroids due to their living habits ie. Consuming plenty of greens, essential fats, having healthy gut biome, proper intake of minerals and vitamins (largely though whole foods), and of course regular activity...specifically cardiovascular training because of the metabolic pathway it utilizes and processes it stimulates in the body that have major health benefits.
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