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Thread: No point to "come off"?

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    No point to "come off"?

    Ok so I was doing some research and thinking:

    If someone is on TRT (like me) then what is the point of coming off any cycle I would add on top of it?

    Receptor saturation is BS, otherwise all TRT people would have to increase their dosages to continue having benefit.

    So the only reason I could think of coming off a cycle on top of TRT is to give your body a break from any possible issues from taking PEDs, but, what if you're doing low dosages?

    I'm currently just doing cyp 200mg (all year) and just switched from Tren E (200mg week) to tren A 300mg a week. Basically I've been on tren for over 12 weeks and I feel totally fine. I have only been using two compounds at once: Test + something else. I was gonna jump on NPP after I run of Tren Ace to try it out, but it is a Nor like Tren, so I was thinking to change things up and do primo and test.

    But again, if receptor saturation is BS, then what does it matter if I jump on two nors in a row?

    I've also been reading and had some friends who competed that stay on all year and basically switch compounds around; that yo-yoing on and off actually ruins gains. Some have said that coming on and off does not allow the body to adjust to the new gains and is why people need to constantly cycle on and off again; repeating the same nonsense. In other words, if you want to keep your gains, your body has to adapt to keeping those gains. Now I'm not talking about becoming 400lbs and then expecting to keep that with 200mg of cyp, I'm talking about lean gains from hard training, diet and SOME PEDs. I'm ont a fan of high dosages anymore, in fact, I find its best to do MIN effect dosage and min compounds per 'cycle'.

    Now I can understand why someone wants to come off to not end up on TRT, but if one is already on it, why come off at all?

    Discuss.
    Last edited by JuliusPleaser; 06-27-2018 at 06:28 AM.

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    people cruise on low doses for health reasons.
    think BP, lipids, etc...

    ever test your blood on tren ?? Guarantee you your lipids are horrid.
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    No I haven't.

    I wouldn't run tren all year round of course.

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    I'm with DD on this. If you're going to cycle 100% of the time, you gotta stay on top of your BW. I'm on TRT as well and after some deep research started supplementing a low dose of NPP for therapeutic purposes. I'm happy with it and feel really good but I do have to donate blood regularly since my TRT protocol combined with NPP, keep it really thick. If you're going to switch to something that breaks down to DHT, be sure to keep your E levels in check or pick one that doesn't aromatize. If you're on an AI already, you may need to modify dosage.

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    Are you referring to coming off test as well or just the compounds you're adding to it?

    I agree that staying on test year round and rotating compounds throughout the year is the most optimal way to continue making steady lean muscle gains. Even WITH gear that is a relatively slow and difficult process which is why it pisses me off when people assume it's easy or we're cheating because we take steroids . They don't understand that we still have to do everything else right: periodized training, proper diet, sufficient rest, etc..

    I have been on at least one other compound aside from test since last December, and at one point was on 4 compounds (test,tren ,winny,mast) all run at low dosages except for the tren was moderate at 450mg.. I realized that surprisingly it doesn't make THAT much of a difference being on 4 compounds as compared to being on let's say just test and tren...Of course I looked more cut when I was running the winny but it wasn't a jaw dropping difference.

    So I figure while I'm still growing into competition size and muscle maturity it's better to focus on purely building muscle and not worry too much about looking as defined as possible or being as hard as possible, so no real need for the winny and mast at the moment. I should save those for when I need to look dry and shredded. Because a Deadlift said these drugs do wreak havoc on our blood lipid profile so we shouldn't be on "unnecessary" compounds.

    Being on trt gives us a major advantage (hence why I'm such a big proponent of it) cause as you mentioned we don't have to worry about pct or losing gains between cycle. We also don't have to put our bodies through periods of severe stress like those experience during pct while they're pumping their bodies full of estrogen blockers in an attempt to restart their HPTA. Not to mention the severe fluctuation of hormones during that time. I believe in the long run, IF this is the lifestyle one chooses, that ultimately it is less stressful to the body to be on low dose exogenous test in between "cycles" as opposed to attempting to restart the HPTA several times per year. But that's just my opinion and others may be different and that's ok.

    Now you mentioned something about receptor saturation being bullshit... I'm not so sure about that man. I'm currently doing a 6 week "reset" where all I'm running is 250mg/wk of test e to let my receptors clear while I prepare for my next "blast". I'm doing this because I noticed that my gains had slowed down dramatically and I wasn't getting the most bang for my buck from the gear anymore, so by letting the 19nors and DHT derivatives clear my system and lowering test down it will prime my body for when I reintroduce those compounds once again at moderate dosages.

    A the end of the day I don't think there is a right or wrong way of doing things. There is only a more or less effective way of doing things AND a safer and riskier way of doing things, and that will differ to an extent among all of us. The amount of risk we're willing to take should be proportionate to the reward we will receive. Furthermore, our goals and objectives are hugely relevant to what coarse of action one takes. It wouldn't make sense for a guy who wants to impress girls at the beach to run the same protocols as someone who wants to compete and potentially make a living from their physique. It also wouldn't make sense for a guy with high cholesterol or a history of heart disease in his family to stay on compounds that are known to have a large impact on blood lipids... So, in summary, I believe it's important to consider ALL of these factors when deciding on the duration and quantity of steroids we consume.

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    No one needs all those hormones and androgens full blast at all times. It'll shorten your life span and will literally change you as a person. Anyone that knew you before steroids went recognize who you have become if taken indefinitely. I'm not joking about that in the least. Look at old posts here on the forum and learn from others mistakes. I've found several cases where men have lost wives, jobs, family, etc and not know why or what caused it. Think about having 200-500mgs of tren in you for a year or more. It takes its toll on your body and mind. Break and break often. This isn't a race and your health should be the front and center of your goals.

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    Thanks for the feedback so far.

    Basically I'm saying for us TRT people, we are always 'on' technically and we don't need to 'get off' totally to turn on our HTPA etc. I'm also on HCG as I do my TRT, along with a small dosage of Arimidex . My testes have come back to normal size and my volume is good. However, I haven't gotten my wife pregnant yet, so I assume the other gear can affect sperm motility.

    In regards on receptor saturation, here is a good read. https://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...th-105677.html

    What I'm thinking of doing is getting off Tren Ace when it runs out in a week or two, then switch my test to Prop and NPP, I would shoot 300mg of each per week. Granted, I am trying to lean out but that is basically all diet. I don't think the NPP will bring TONS of water retention if anything noticeable.

    The reason why I am doing low dosages is because I totally agree with the fact that these things can mess you up when abused.

    Peptides I will continue to take all year round (gh, frag, LR3 cycled)

    But, when I want to really try with my wife, I will probably drop all other gear and stick only to 100mg of test with HCG. But we aren't exactly trying right now, but will let things happen if they do.
    Last edited by JuliusPleaser; 06-27-2018 at 11:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser View Post
    Thanks for the feedback so far.

    Basically I'm saying for us TRT people, we are always 'on' technically and we don't need to 'get off' totally to turn on our HTPA etc. I'm also on HCG as I do my TRT, along with a small dosage of Arimidex . My testes have come back to normal size and my volume is good. However, I haven't gotten my wife pregnant yet, so I assume the other gear can affect sperm motility.

    In regards on receptor saturation, here is a good read. https://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...th-105677.html

    What I'm thinking of doing is getting off Tren Ace when it runs out in a week or two, then switch my test to Prop and NPP, I would shoot 300mg of each per week. Granted, I am trying to lean out but that is basically all diet. I don't think the NPP will bring TONS of water retention if anything noticeable.

    The reason why I am doing low dosages is because I totally agree with the fact that these things can mess you up when abused.

    Peptides I will continue to take all year round (gh, frag, LR3 cycled)

    But, when I want to really try with my wife, I will probably drop all other gear and stick only to 100mg of test with HCG. But we aren't exactly trying right now, but will let things happen if they do.
    I would get bloodwork done before switching from one compound to another.
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    Health is the only reason

    Otherwise I'd juice way harder

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser View Post
    Thanks for the feedback so far.

    Basically I'm saying for us TRT people, we are always 'on' technically and we don't need to 'get off' totally to turn on our HTPA etc. I'm also on HCG as I do my TRT, along with a small dosage of Arimidex . My testes have come back to normal size and my volume is good. However, I haven't gotten my wife pregnant yet, so I assume the other gear can affect sperm motility.

    In regards on receptor saturation, here is a good read. https://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...th-105677.html

    What I'm thinking of doing is getting off Tren Ace when it runs out in a week or two, then switch my test to Prop and NPP, I would shoot 300mg of each per week. Granted, I am trying to lean out but that is basically all diet. I don't think the NPP will bring TONS of water retention if anything noticeable.

    The reason why I am doing low dosages is because I totally agree with the fact that these things can mess you up when abused.

    Peptides I will continue to take all year round (gh, frag, LR3 cycled)

    But, when I want to really try with my wife, I will probably drop all other gear and stick only to 100mg of test with HCG. But we aren't exactly trying right now, but will let things happen if they do.
    I wouldn't say those of us on TRT are always "on", I'd say we're "normal". Or that's what our goal should be. Supplementing is something totally different. You are correct that we don't need to worry about HTPA since ours is basically non-functioning to begin with. However, some of us (me included) don't do any type of HCG or PCT related activity given our age... There just isn't any point. You are younger and looking to have kids. I highly recommend you be careful and not switch around too much. It could impact your ability to have kids...

    And definitely keep up on your BW. That way you can see what's happening.
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    Receptor saturation is BS, otherwise all TRT people would have to increase their dosages to continue having benefit. Are you saying that our receptors never get saturated?

    I'm doing an experiment right now. I ran 300mg/wk Test cyp + 300mg/wk Mast E+ 300mg/wk Tren E for 13 weeks. I'm on TRT so no PCT. I immediately jumped on 300mg/wk Test + 300mg/wk Mast + 300mg/wk Primo for 13 weeks. I plan on being on a cycle for 6 months.

    It's now week 16 and I can start to see my gains slowing down a lot. I've actually gained a little belly fat (pinch test) and my strength isn't increasing. In week 10 of my Test/Mast/Tren cycle I got a seated barbell military press of 275# at a body weight of 205#. My vascularity was at it's peak. Now, my vascularity has gone down some. It could be due to coming off Tren.

    My feeling is that I'm not going to make any more gains after week 16. That's my body. Some of you young guys with great genetics may make gains into week 20 or even longer. But at a certain point, your body will need more AAS to maintain or to make more gains. The Pro's are using a LOT of gear to maintain their physique.

    For us mere mortals cycling the AAS and giving our bodies a break is best. My .02
    Last edited by ScotchGuard02; 06-28-2018 at 06:50 AM.

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    From what I understand, the receptors upregulate to take up more drug. They do not downregulate.
    Of course once you reach peak dosage at (X) amount, you're not going to just keep getting bigger at that dosage, you have to increase it to get more out of it. But if you get bigger, don't you think now you have more tissue to have receptors available? The article I posted basically says there is zero evidence for down regulation but plenty of it for upregulation.


    If downregulation occurred, our TRT dosages would have to gradually go up to be normal, and that is not the case.

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    I've been having so much sex with my wife while on tren and I certainly think after months now of consistent sex, she would have been pregnant by now. So I'm certain tren has done something to my sperm to make it harder to get pregnant.

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    But anyway, back to my original point:

    Is there any point for someone like myself to really be concerned if I'm one a low dose of another compound on top of my TRT so long as my health is good?

    Of course if I want to have kids and this stuff makes that an issue id get off the other things for that...but aside from that...logically I think this position is sound.l

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoxRunner View Post
    I'm with DD on this. If you're going to cycle 100% of the time, you gotta stay on top of your BW. I'm on TRT as well and after some deep research started supplementing a low dose of NPP for therapeutic purposes. I'm happy with it and feel really good but I do have to donate blood regularly since my TRT protocol combined with NPP, keep it really thick. If you're going to switch to something that breaks down to DHT, be sure to keep your E levels in check or pick one that doesn't aromatize. If you're on an AI already, you may need to modify dosage.
    How much npp a week and how often?

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    I was thinking 300mg a week...doing it twice or three times a week, debating on which.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser View Post
    But anyway, back to my original point:

    Is there any point for someone like myself to really be concerned if I'm one a low dose of another compound on top of my TRT so long as my health is good?

    Of course if I want to have kids and this stuff makes that an issue id get off the other things for that...but aside from that...logically I think this position is sound.l
    Your health won't be good when you are on something above TRT. Everything affects something especially lipids. Even test alone will affect lipids and will have you forced to donate every now and then. Bad lipids = atherosclerosis over time. And testosterone is something natural to our bodies, and is tolerated well. With most other AAS the sides are worse and they affect many things.

    Does your low dose/stay on for long produce you any gains? I found that there were no gains to be made after a certain point even when you add compounds. And this was with logbooks of workouts, tracking weight/calories and pics. No more strength increase, even if I switched up my training, same bodyweight or if I tried more calories, more fat. And more sides from the AAS lol.

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    I certainly have seen improvement just adding the Tren E 200mg per wk and when that ran out, added the Tren Ace 300mg per wk: strength, leanness, vascularity, all of it. And these are low dosages for these compounds.


    I guess I just want to get off Tren and use something less harsh, perhaps give primo a try for the first time? Thing is, I have NPP on hand so I figured why not do that and its way cheaper than primo lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser View Post
    I certainly have seen improvement just adding the Tren E 200mg per wk and when that ran out, added the Tren Ace 300mg per wk: strength, leanness, vascularity, all of it. And these are low dosages for these compounds.


    I guess I just want to get off Tren and use something less harsh, perhaps give primo a try for the first time? Thing is, I have NPP on hand so I figured why not do that and its way cheaper than primo lol
    Mast and primo are pretty clean... no water retention , don’t think you need to run an AI With it, only thing is it may lower your SHBG and increase dht.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser View Post
    I certainly have seen improvement just adding the Tren E 200mg per wk and when that ran out, added the Tren Ace 300mg per wk: strength, leanness, vascularity, all of it. And these are low dosages for these compounds.


    I guess I just want to get off Tren and use something less harsh, perhaps give primo a try for the first time? Thing is, I have NPP on hand so I figured why not do that and its way cheaper than primo lol
    Thats cycle dosages!

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    300 tren a is pretty low compared to those who do like 600mg lol.

    Tren E at 200 is pretty low when people typically do 400mg. Certainly they are 'cycle' dosages since anything about 100mg test is probably too much for us haha.

    But I'm gonna get off the tren ace today and switch to NPP. I've been on tren for too long now and I can start feeling that flu-like run down.
    Last edited by JuliusPleaser; 06-28-2018 at 06:51 AM.

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    Ok so I have decided to go for 10 weeks of 300mg prop and 300mg NPP to try this compound out.
    I'm switching test cyp from 200mg and with prop to 300mg so I don't have to take more NPP (400mg is recommended by 300mg is average dose) to reduce any water that may come. Again, I'm a big believer of using the minimum amount of a substance to see how good it is so I want to take the min amount of NPP.


    I will continue to run my caber at .5mg, armidex at .5mg, and 1000iu of HCG per week. <-- this right here has been the perfect balance for me to keep my libido up during this entire long cycle of tren without any "tren dick" or issues of that nature. Testes have been full size as well. I've been running HCG for months now at this dose.
    Last edited by JuliusPleaser; 06-28-2018 at 07:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser View Post
    300 tren a is pretty low compared to those who do like 600mg lol.

    Tren E at 200 is pretty low when people typically do 400mg. Certainly they are 'cycle' dosages since anything about 100mg test is probably too much for us haha.

    But I'm gonna get off the tren ace today and switch to NPP. I've been on tren for too long now and I can start feeling that flu-like run down.
    Don't make the mistake of comparing yourself to others usage. you should only ever compare to yourself and your own progress.

    Real Finabolan at 200mg with TRT is strong. Tren is a 5x rating.

    It's like saying well IFBB Pro John Smith uses 2000mg of Test so if I use 1000mg of Test it's only half so no big deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Windex View Post
    Don't make the mistake of comparing yourself to others usage. you should only ever compare to yourself and your own progress.

    Real Finabolan at 200mg with TRT is strong. Tren is a 5x rating.

    It's like saying well IFBB Pro John Smith uses 2000mg of Test so if I use 1000mg of Test it's only half so no big deal.
    Amen... Well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser View Post
    I've been having so much sex with my wife while on tren and I certainly think after months now of consistent sex, she would have been pregnant by now. So I'm certain tren has done something to my sperm to make it harder to get pregnant.
    It's very possible that the gear is causing a prob but it's also very possible it just hasn't been your guys' time to have a baby yet. Approx 7 years ago I was on a test/tren cycle and got my son's mother pregnant while deep into the cycle and on top of me being on gear, she also had a pretty severe case of endometriosis so getting pregnant was stacked very highly against the odds for us. It's just a reminder that we make plans and God laughs lol.

    A buddy of mine who's quite a bit younger than me and still wants to have children was just put on Hcg by his doc because my boy told doc he still wants to have kids and doc knows about his gear usage so he put him on Hcg to get everything working again so he'll be able to have kids one day. Personally I'm not very educated on this aspect of steroid usage since it never applied to me and I'm not trying to have anymore kids, but if I was you I'd get a good endocrine doc and see what he recommends.

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    I am going off my body, which is why I'm doing the lowest dosages advised.

    My wife is getting checked this week but I highly doubt its her lol.

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    I said it a few times on here before,

    I run test+ other compounds year round, 6+ months of mild(now, at least)

    The lowest I pull my cruise doses is about 250mg a week(usually more)

    6 years later - I'm fine


    But, I do quite a bit to try to keep myself healthy

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    Yep. I guess the only thing people really fear is needing to be on TRT for life, but eventually we will all have to be on TRT one day, so why not just enjoy the gear lol

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    You gotta drop down to test only at least for a good 6-8 weeks if not more. It's about lipids and arteries as cousin muscles said

    Don't be blindsided one day a year from now golfing while it's hot and have a stroke on green 10 at 25 years old
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    I agree with that of course, but what I mean by never getting off is basically never stopping the test and the cycling of other compounds as there is no point to it. If you're going to take steroids more than one cycle after the noobie gains, you might as well keep going; especially now we know men are ending up with low T anyway.

    And as I stated, if your blood profile is good and everything else is fine, then you can cycle "on" as long as that remains the fact, then come off when its not the fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser View Post
    I agree with that of course, but what I mean by never getting off is basically never stopping the test and the cycling of other compounds as there is no point to it. If you're going to take steroids more than one cycle after the noobie gains, you might as well keep going; especially now we know men are ending up with low T anyway.

    And as I stated, if your blood profile is good and everything else is fine, then you can cycle "on" as long as that remains the fact, then come off when its not the fact.
    I feel most men don’t even realize they have low T. If I didn’t go and get it checked , I would have never went to check.
    Weirdly my natural test in the afternoon was around almost 500 but 140 in the morning ( even the doctor was confused ) problem is the symptoms are what is important.
    Being on TRT for life isn’t really all that bad. Get the right needles and it doesn’t really hurt. Nowww hcg in the belly with very little belly fat sucks a dirty asshole

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser View Post
    I agree with that of course, but what I mean by never getting off is basically never stopping the test and the cycling of other compounds as there is no point to it. If you're going to take steroids more than one cycle after the noobie gains, you might as well keep going; especially now we know men are ending up with low T anyway.

    And as I stated, if your blood profile is good and everything else is fine, then you can cycle "on" as long as that remains the fact, then come off when its not the fact.
    The thing is it's a guarantee that your bloods profile won't be good constantly rotating other compounds slong side trr dosed test.

    That's like saying if the sky was pink we could pick strawberries from the clouds.

    It's just not going to happen.

    The internal side effects are not bro science or myth, they are as factual as factual can get and not avoidable at all.

    Yeah "live the healthy loe cholesterol lifestyle" will only keep shit in check for while, but rounding 15 weeks of blast they will be skewed badly
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    Agree, which is why I said "until it is not the fact" in regards to blood profile, then come off of course. But I think all these people running short cycles to avoid sides are just robbing themselves of gains when the real fear is having to be on TRT for life; which I think we will all end up one day.

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    Fvck, until juice found me I though that a dead dick at the age of 25 was a normal thing - My MD said total test of low 300's was just fine

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    Gents, Idk about you folks, but this NPP has INCREASED my libido lol... Granted I am taking caber and all, but wow, wtf??? This isn't the first time I've seen this happen, I've had some friends tell me that tren did the same thing to them! perhaps some people react to nors differently than others lol

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    Same here - I get my tren down low, a little mast & a fair amount of test = a walking boner


    Doesn't last forever though - this is y I pyramid my doses

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliusPleaser View Post
    300 tren a is pretty low compared to those who do like 600mg lol.

    Tren E at 200 is pretty low when people typically do 400mg. Certainly they are 'cycle' dosages since anything about 100mg test is probably too much for us haha.

    But I'm gonna get off the tren ace today and switch to NPP. I've been on tren for too long now and I can start feeling that flu-like run down.
    I wouldn't consider 200mgs of tren low. It seems your comparing yourself with how others respond. Don't do that. You need to grow into your dose and not get in any hurry. That's what causes health issues. With tren being 5x more androgenic AND anabolic that test, even small doses can yield BIG results. There is a retired pro, who's a close friend of mine, and loved tren leading up to a show. Most do. Anyways, he never ever used more than 50mgs eod and this man is a beast still. His results got me to use tren more responsibly and I should have never ran it at the doses I used to. I highly doubt I will ever use it again due to how it changes my perspective on things very important to me. I prefer NPP any day if the week thought. My favorite cycles always contain NPP. Running it alongside masteron and anavar with tiny amounts of test gives me better results than anything else, tren included. I'm not trying to deter you. Far from it. But I'd hate for you to wake up one day and regret irresponsible use that way I have.
    cousinmuscles likes this.

  38. #38
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    Well I have switched to NPP and I must say I love it

  39. #39
    T-boner is offline Associate Member
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    One thing I didn’t see mentioned in this thread is the use of Proviron to clear the receptor. Winny will do it too but it’s liver toxic and hurts cholesterol. Proviron is very under rated. I absolutely love it. It won’t make you big which is why most people pass it up. It helps keep estrogen in check and The sexual benefits are amazing too. I’m on TRT and I run a little Proviron periodically just to clear the receptors.

    I’m browsing this thread because I also would like to do more throughout the year rather than drop back to TRT dose for 3 months at a time. I tolerate Tren very well. After 10-12 weeks of Tren I still feel great. Never pulled bloodwork at that time to see if it’s jacked up.

  40. #40
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    HDThunder is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boner View Post
    One thing I didn’t see mentioned in this thread is the use of Proviron to clear the receptor. Winny will do it too but it’s liver toxic and hurts cholesterol. Proviron is very under rated. I absolutely love it. It won’t make you big which is why most people pass it up. It helps keep estrogen in check and The sexual benefits are amazing too. I’m on TRT and I run a little Proviron periodically just to clear the receptors.

    I’m browsing this thread because I also would like to do more throughout the year rather than drop back to TRT dose for 3 months at a time. I tolerate Tren very well. After 10-12 weeks of Tren I still feel great. Never pulled bloodwork at that time to see if it’s jacked up.

    I love me some Proviron too. 25-50mg/day. Excellent for the libido. I'm not aware of this clearing the receptors property. Can you provide any references to that? I'm curious.

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