For putting on mass is it better to......

[AlphaMindz]

.....eat as much as possible (which means getting a little fat and bloated) to generate shear size and THEN adjust macros, clean up diet, and lose body fat to achieve desired physique OR stay relatively lean through out the entire process...?

Here's why I ask... Clearly it's healthier to stay lean and have abs year round, but I'm considerably stronger when I'm eating more calorie dense foods. Being stronger allows for lifting heavier weight and ultimately causing greater adaption and muscle hypertrophy.

I'm trying to pack on size right now and I'm eating more food but the caloric increase doesn't seem to be enough...and I'm easily 500+ over maintenance. Why is that? Am I just being impatient or am I hindering my gains by not being in ENOUGH of a surplus?

Also, being on gear allows for a greater surplus without adding much body fat but I'm losing leanness without being in too much of a surplus so I don't get it..Plus I'm not currently putting on weight so I'm trying to figure out if I should just start eating a lot more food and stop worrying about putting on body fat to allow myself to grow better and then lean out once I'm satisfied with my development, or keep trying to "lean bulk" and give it more time as maybe it's just a slower process.

Insight from someone experienced would be greatly appreciated. ~Alpha

[ScotchGuard02]

Putting on sheer size and then cutting or gaining while controlling fat are 6's to me. Then again, my goals may be different. I'm at 5'11" 200lbs and I'm happy right here. I may gain 5lbs or so before a competition. I prefer the leaner look over a bulky look.

If you're looking to put on sheer size, eat, eat, and more eat. You're going to gain size and also some fat. If you're careful about your cut, you should lose 5lbs of fat to about 2lb of muscle. That's a pretty good trade off.

[AlphaMindz]

Thanks Scotch.

5lbs of fat to 2lbs of muscle seems realistic but also seems like a high ratio. That means approx 40% of weight loss is muscle...?

[ScotchGuard02]

No, the calculation would be ((2/7)*100) which is about 28%. Let's say, 30% muscle loss to 70% fat loss.

[AlphaMindz]

Ok thanks Scotch I'm not a math guy so I'll take your word for it lol.

So your opinion is it's better to put on as much weight as possible (without getting too fat) and then cutting.

Anyone else have an opinion on this from experience??

[AlphaMindz]

Also, WHY do you hold that opinion..? Thanks guys/gals.

[Couchlockd]

Also, WHY do you hold that opinion..? Thanks guys/gals.

I tried my first cycle to "recomp" didn't do jack shit.

This last one. I ate like a gorilla.

I gained a fair amount of belly fat, but made serious strength and upoer body size gains.

I'm going to cut as I am now on trt dose

You can do one thing great or two things half cooked.

[AlphaMindz]

I'm surprised there aren't more people with strong view points for either approach.

The body building world seems pretty divided on this topic so I was hoping to get advocates for both sides and their reasoning behind it!

[HoldMyBeer]

.....eat as much as possible (which means getting a little fat and bloated) to generate shear size and THEN adjust macros, clean up diet, and lose body fat to achieve desired physique OR stay relatively lean through out the entire process...?

Here's why I ask... Clearly it's healthier to stay lean and have abs year round, but I'm considerably stronger when I'm eating more calorie dense foods. Being stronger allows for lifting heavier weight and ultimately causing greater adaption and muscle hypertrophy.

I'm trying to pack on size right now and I'm eating more food but the caloric increase doesn't seem to be enough...and I'm easily 500+ over maintenance. Why is that? Am I just being impatient or am I hindering my gains by not being in ENOUGH of a surplus?

Also, being on gear allows for a greater surplus without adding much body fat but I'm losing leanness without being in too much of a surplus so I don't get it..Plus I'm not currently putting on weight so I'm trying to figure out if I should just start eating a lot more food and stop worrying about putting on body fat to allow myself to grow better and then lean out once I'm satisfied with my development, or keep trying to "lean bulk" and give it more time as maybe it's just a slower process.

Insight from someone experienced would be greatly appreciated. ~Alpha

What I would do is: Eat at a 500 calorie surplus with a 40-40-20 protein-carb-fat ratio from the start. I dont like trial and error then trying to dial in, it is a waste of time. I think you are right, much more than 500 will probably just get converted to unnecessary fat

You probably know your TDEE
myFitnessPal >> goals >> calorie & macro goals
set your calories and percentages. It will calculate how many grams of each for you.

[70rs]

I can only tell you my experience wich would be as a natty,just started using aas,so bear that in mind,when I'm going for shear size and strength,it's mostly all food, I eat at much meat as possible every meal and all thru out the day,I'll take a protein drink too,mostly for the vitamin bcaas etc,but mostly all my protein is coming from food,I lift heavier feel better etc,that's why even when I cut down I prefer to stay on the heavier side,not fat but around 20% body fat is probably my average,now of course if I'm cutting down it's more clean foods protein drinks, you get the idea,but like I said in my experience if you want to put on solid mass it's food,but remember you gotta lift and lift heavy! You gotta put those calories to good use or you get fat and sloppy,that's how my body works anyway,everyone is different.

[ScotchGuard02]

I'm surprised there aren't more people with strong view points for either approach.

The body building world seems pretty divided on this topic so I was hoping to get advocates for both sides and their reasoning behind it!

It's really a chore to eat enough "clean" food to do a proper bulk cycle. If you eat pizza 6 times a day, you will DEFINITELY get bigger but not for bodybuilding. You have to watch your macros when you're bulking. If you see too much fat gains you have to adjust your carbs. Your body has a natural rythem in the way it processes food. You have to "dial" in your diet to maximize your gains. I'm naturally at about 200lbs so I can maintain my build at this weight. If I try to gain 20 lbs I'll go from 9%bf to 15%bf because my body is not used to the amount of calories with the amount of gear I'm taking.

All in all, you have to do a few bulk cycles to tune in your diet to your body. The simple formula is to eat eat eat and then cut. It's not ideal but it does work. I've been cycling long enough to know how my body will react to different compounds so I can eat accordingly. My .02

[MACKATTACK]

This is where a coach aka Diet Guru comes into play. Its a happy medium, the goal is to put on as much lean mass and not go over a calorie intake that will make you gain large sums of fat. Everytime I see the word "BULK" I laugh, thats for guys that want to get fat and think they got "big"..........


Especially a "Dirty Bulk".........no sorry sir, you are getting fat lmao, trust me I know how to put fat on, I've done it before in my lifetime lol

[MACKATTACK]

This is a correspondence with a Diet coach.......he coaches Olympians and endless competitors on the World Wide Stage......

He meant "can't" instead of "any" in the last part of the text.......

[Couchlockd]

This is where a coach aka Diet Guru comes into play. Its a happy medium, the goal is to put on as much lean mass and not go over a calorie intake that will make you gain large sums of fat. Everytime I see the word "BULK" I laugh, thats for guys that want to get fat and think they got "big"..........


Especially a "Dirty Bulk".........no sorry sir, you are getting fat lmao, trust me I know how to put fat on, I've done it before in my lifetime lol

And you need a coach to tell you how to eat?

That's called "nutritional masturbation" and it's completely unnecessary to pay some one to tell you to eat healthy.

[MACKATTACK]

^^^^^ This guy still doesn't comprehend I blocked him.......

[Dannyboy51577]

I tried my first cycle to "recomp" didn't do jack shit.

This last one. I ate like a gorilla.

I gained a fair amount of belly fat, but made serious strength and upoer body size gains.

I'm going to cut as I am now on trt dose

You can do one thing great or two things half cooked.

Ditto here. I dont do well trying to recomp. Seems like i dont gain much size. I habe to toe a certain line cuz im 235-240 to begin with, and i dont like getting to 260. So i usually like to get myself down to 220 ish before i bulk, eat like an animal, i usually end up around 250, then i can cut and drop to 230 or 235 which is where im comfortable and have gained a few lbs of noticeable muscle.

Ive tried a few other ways without much success

[Couchlockd]

^^^^^ This guy still doesn't comprehend I blocked him.......

Then how do you know I posted and why are you responding to it?.

Lmao

[Windex]

I've never done a "bulk" in my life and probably never will - I finished highschool at 245ish lbs with probably 35%+ bodyfat. It took me somewhere around 1.5 years to become healthy and drop my fat and weight. Then I got into my accident and had a small yo-yo back up and took me more time to reverse that. I feel that most bodybuilders who started like I did won't "bulk" (in the traditional sense) because of the psychological barrier of going back to being fat. Often, emotion trumps logic for situations like that. The 3 nutrition tools I use are:

- Marcus Diet Prime
- Evan Centopani Refeed (not a "cheat" meal)
- Carb Cycling

Combined with controlling cardio and training intensity, I'm never +/- more than 350ish calories of my TDEE (excluding refeeds of course). I guess for the sake of labeling this would fall under the "recomp" classification. I remind myself that it's a marathon not a race. Conversely, I think this approach requires a lot thicker skin because the progress is a lot slower and it's easy to feel defeated when you don't notice big changes quickly.

Another consideration (albeit a bit backwards thinking) is preferred gear may determine their preferred diet approach. Personally, aside from my TRT & HGH, I only use one steroid .

[SocioMachiavelli]

And you need a coach to tell you how to eat?

That's called "nutritional masturbation" and it's completely unnecessary to pay some one to tell you to eat healthy.

There is a distinction between eating healthily and optimal nutritional intake for bodybuilding. If the pros have nutritional coaches who are we to judge?

[AlphaMindz]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I'm going to respond as I have time today.

[kelkel]

I always thought bulking and ultimately putting on fat for the sake of a higher number on the scale is pointless. I want to look like a bodybuilder year round.
It's a marathon not a sprint.

[fit_deskjocky]

I feel it takes a little while of just straight bulking to achieve the body building physique and foundation to start with. For many they were able to achieve this size when they were younger when they were putting on crazy amounts of muscle and that makes it easier to lose fat when they got to the size they were looking for. Once that's achieved later in life, it's easier to gain 5lbs (most muscle, some fat), lose 3lbs (most fat, some muscle) thus making progress. In short, when I was younger, it was easier to bulk until I got where I needed to be and then cut.

[AlphaMindz]

I don't have time to reply to everyone as I normally would but thanks for everyone's feedback and Windex thanks for your pm cause I prob wouldn't have made it back to this thread. Wish I had an easier way to be alerted of replies other than other members having to take the extra time to let me know...but it is it appreciated bro thanks.

So I'm happy to report that I have resolved my issue guys. The issue was......not getting ENOUGH fats and carbs! I always get enough protein and I'm pretty liberal with healthy fats also, but carbs I was shying away from... Huge mistake for growth.

I made some adjustments to my diet and now I can use the word "exploding" with gains! I can't believe the time I've lost by under feeding myself out of fear of getting fat but my body can handle way more cals than I originally figured... Especially with the added muscle mass of the past year and being on drugs, of course. I grossly underestimated the steroids ' ability to keep energy out of my fat cells and in my muscle cells!

Windex I can totally relate to what you said in your post and that's why I ran into this issue. The issue was compounded by the fact that my abs were under developed so I was even more afraid of losing the abs which then makes you look out of shape...So now that my abs have some development, I'm able to hold a lot more body fat before I start looking "off."

Incidentally, it turns out that I prob could've grown a hell of a lot more this past year had I been eating MORE. Although, the objective was to recomp and I did achieve that goal so I'm still happy with my progress, but I need to acknowledge the fact that even in a recomp, being on drugs like test and tren , I prob could've eaten a lot more and grown even better than I have while STILL losing a little body fat...Either way, that's in the past now, I only mention it to help a guy out who may be in the same place I was in a year ago.

If I had a coach they prob would've caught this a while ago, so I can totally see the value in having a good coach. When I find the right person to work with, preferably in my area, then I'll make a move on that. For now I'm just figuring shit out on my own through trial and error.

I'm gonna post a pic here soon to give you guys an update and I'm also going to share a little diet "trick" for bulking that I've been using and it's been working like a charm. I haven't felt this full and vascular since.....well, ever lol! I'll start a thread in the diet/nutrition section regarding the changes I've made to my diet. As far as drugs I'm on test, eq, and recently added in a small amount of tren (50mg eod) to ensure composition stays hard during this bulk. (I'm no longer running tren at higher dosages due to the amyloid protein build up in the brain over time that is a contributing factor to Alzheimer's..although there isn't much research to back this, I figure it's a win/win as tren doesn't need to be run high. I'm getting great benefits from it at only 50mg eod).

In summary, looks like the old school approach is what's going to be OPTIMAL for putting on size. A few days after I started this thread I bought a meal prep cooler and started eating every 2-3 hours. Now admittedly, some days I simply cannot force feed myself the last meal or two on the daily docket, so that's where my diet "trick" comes into play which I learned from Dave Palumbo so some of you may already know what I'm talking about lol. Often when I eat calorie dense foods I get a pump after I eat. Anyone experience this? Could never decide whether that feeling is from glycogen stores being filled up, nitrogen retention from protein synthesis, or nitric oxide production....or possibly all three..?

What are your guys' thoughts on this?

[kelkel]

I figure it's a win/win as tren doesn't need to be run high. I'm getting great benefits from it at only 50mg eod).

Said that here for years. I've had great results from tren runs (along side TRT) as low as 100 mgs per week.

[Couchlockd]

Said that here for years. I've had great results from tren runs (along side TRT) as low as 100 mgs per week.

Do any of the terrible Trenbolone side effects show their face at those dosages?

[Windex]

Said that here for years. I've had great results from tren runs (along side TRT) as low as 100 mgs per week.

Amen, 100-200mg of Tren E or Tren Hex and I usually drop TRT from 150mg down to 100mg or 120mg.

[AlphaMindz]

Do any of the terrible Trenbolone side effects show their face at those dosages?

Nope. I had a tinge of trensomnia for the first week or so but even that was minimal. I'd wake up once around 4am and be like "yup it's the tren " and get up, take a leak, down a shake and pass back out lol. It may of even helped me cause I got an extra meal in lol. But nothing like I usually get with the murderous aggression and super rapey thoughts lmao none of that. I do get the body temp increase a bit so I'm sweating a bit more but that's it man. And the big one for me since it's a 19nor deriv is sexual function and at this dose everythings working perfectly with no issues.

I highly recommend running test high (while keeping e2 around 21ng/dl) and running tren low.

[AlphaMindz]

Said that here for years. I've had great results from tren runs (along side TRT) as low as 100 mgs per week.

Yeah Kel I found out about running it that low from an old school guy like yourself. Back when he was competing all they had was the parabolin amps and they were dosed at 75mg I believe and that was MORE than enough he said so I gave it a go at 50mg and it's doing exactly what I was hoping it would (keeping me hard, and seems like every last ounce of food that I ingest gets forced into the muscle as I'm utilizing it mainly for its nutrient partitioning effects).

[Aerospace]

Best way to put on mass is focus on getting the size (as you mentioned at first), even if there's bloating and it's a bit dirty. You can trim that off easy with drugs and dieting. Gaining muscle is difficult. As long as you stay away from sugar and dirty foods, you're fine.

[Obs]

There is a distinction between eating healthily and optimal nutritional intake for bodybuilding. If the pros have nutritional coaches who are we to judge?

Some do.
Some dont.
Some count macros
Some never have.

I made a thread on how I feel about macros.
The day a nutritionist or anyone can tell me what foods my genetics digest best is the day I count macros. Unfortunately none of them can come close to what I learned through trial and error.

Example:

I drank 5+ gallons of milk per week for months. I gained great no real fat gain.
Some guys would get fat
Some guys would die of lactose intolerance
Some guys would just not be able to do it for stomach issues.

A nutritionist is like the highschool kid at oriellys telling you which brand of oil is best for your engine.
Its cute, but we are all nowhere near the same. Diet is individual specific and tuned over years to match your dna specifics.

[jimk1692]

Nope. I had a tinge of trensomnia for the first week or so but even that was minimal. I'd wake up once around 4am and be like "yup it's the tren " and get up, take a leak, down a shake and pass back out lol. It may of even helped me cause I got an extra meal in lol. But nothing like I usually get with the murderous aggression and super rapey thoughts lmao none of that. I do get the body temp increase a bit so I'm sweating a bit more but that's it man. And the big one for me since it's a 19nor deriv is sexual function and at this dose everythings working perfectly with no issues.

I highly recommend running test high (while keeping e2 around 21ng/dl) and running tren low.

So if I were to run tren at 200mg a week what would you recommend test to be at? This is very interesting, I like the idea.

[AlphaMindz]

Some do.
Some dont.
Some count macros
Some never have.

I made a thread on how I feel about macros.
The day a nutritionist or anyone can tell me what foods my genetics digest best is the day I count macros. Unfortunately none of them can come close to what I learned through trial and error.

Example:

I drank 5+ gallons of milk per week for months. I gained great no real fat gain.
Some guys would get fat
Some guys would die of lactose intolerance
Some guys would just not be able to do it for stomach issues.

A nutritionist is like the highschool kid at oriellys telling you which brand of oil is best for your engine.
Its cute, but we are all nowhere near the same. Diet is individual specific and tuned over years to match your dna specifics.

I hear ya brother it's all about what works for us. That's the true art of this whole thing is finding what works best with our own bodies. But I would take it easy on all that milk I don't think it's the best thing for a human to be drinking in those amounts.. I've heard that it contributes to arterial plaque build up, but idk maybe that's bs lol I'm just saying prob be a good idea to not drink that much milk every week!

[AlphaMindz]

So if I were to run tren at 200mg a week what would you recommend test to be at? This is very interesting, I like the idea.

Yeah that's what I'm running it at and it's def the "sweet spot" for me as I'm getting all the benefits with zero side effects. Th first 10 days I had some very mild trensomnia to the likes of me waking up once during the night and falling right back asleep lol.

This is how I'm going to run my cycles from now on. Test moderately high ~1 gram, with a moderately dosed anabolic (eq or deca around 500mg/week) , and then maybe a polisher like winny or mast, or tren at 50 mg eod).

I just noticed your question lol. Keep test at 750mg or a gram depending on cycle history.. Would be smart to start test at 500mg and increase to 750 then 1 gram depending how long you plan on staying on and whether or not you're on trt..

[Kay kay]

IMO over feeding is a necessary tool for extreme mass

[Kay kay]

At OBS


Great post regarding differences in reference to diet.

[kelkel]

Do any of the terrible Trenbolone side effects show their face at those dosages?

Apologies Couch I just saw this. Only a little bit of night sweats but that passed rather quickly fortunately.

[Wyatt 88]

Yeah that's what I'm running it at and it's def the "sweet spot" for me as I'm getting all the benefits with zero side effects. Th first 10 days I had some very mild trensomnia to the likes of me waking up once during the night and falling right back asleep lol.

This is how I'm going to run my cycles from now on. Test moderately high ~1 gram, with a moderately dosed anabolic (eq or deca around 500mg/week) , and then maybe a polisher like winny or mast, or tren at 50 mg eod).

I just noticed your question lol. Keep test at 750mg or a gram depending on cycle history.. Would be smart to start test at 500mg and increase to 750 then 1 gram depending how long you plan on staying on and whether or not you're on trt..

Why would it be smart to work your way up with the test? And would you do it in thirds?

Assuming this is a longer cycle of at least 16 weeks, then going back on TRT.

Thanks

[guitarzan]

Apologies Couch I just saw this. Only a little bit of night sweats but that passed rather quickly fortunately.

I still have heartburn issues at low dose, but that's about it. I've found keeping carbs low after lunch helps keep from getting night sweats

[guitarzan]

I'm one of the fortunate ones that can recomp (very slowly), and can bulk without gear, but i can ride by McDonald's and put on fat...lol
Kinda like what obs said about diet needs can be different for everyone, so can the ability to put on mass or lose fat

[AR's King Silabolin]

Eating 500+ is not enough. Its not about what u eat and how much. Its about eating more.
U gotta eat more every week. Forget about 500 calories +
Add a little macros each week.

Start low...like 2500...try to make your body stay as strong as possible with 2500.
Stay there until body has settled. It will be impossible to grow. Goal is to not shrink.
Then u add 250 kcal each day next week. I guarantee u. Its impossible not to get stronger and bigger now.
If u not in a hurry. Wait 2 weeks for the next 250 raise.
Or raise 250 each week if u wanna have it now.
Later on u migth have to increase cardio aswell.

Weights and training dont build muscles...carbs do.

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