Advice on first cycle

**Bunyon** · 10-19-2020, 10:16 PM

About to start my first cycle, want to make sure everything checks out before I pull the trigger on my supplies order. Looking to put some serious muscle on while still training BJJ 4x/wk.

29yo, 5'9, 175lb, 12% BF

Getting bloodwork done pre/during/post

Looking at a 15wk cycle of

Wk 1-15 500mg Test C dosed 250mg E3.5D
Wk 3-18 1000ui HCG dosed 500ui E3.5D
Wk 18-24 Nolva 10mg ED

Will have Aromasin on hand for any signs of high E2, will dose 12.5mg E3.5D.

How does this look for a first time cycle?

**Old Duffer** · 10-20-2020, 12:47 AM

You may not need the nolva, but I would run it with the test. Not after

**Honkey_Kong** · 10-20-2020, 01:13 AM

I wouldn't touch the nolva until 2 weeks after your last test injection.

**Abt** · 10-20-2020, 07:11 AM

Wouldnt go 15 weeks in first cycle, id be doing 8-10 weeks.

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**DustMan** · 10-20-2020, 09:37 AM

Cookie cutter first cycle, depending on who you ask its almost perfect, only thing most old school guys would say is to add clomid to the PCT for the best results and start the PCT 2 weeks later like Honkey Kong says.

New school guys will tell you to do 300mg instead of 500mg for your first cycle in case you get any really negative sides. 300mg per week is plenty, you'll see mega results, you can always increase the dose to 500 next cycle.

**Honkey_Kong** · 10-20-2020, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Abt

Wouldnt go 15 weeks in first cycle, id be doing 8-10 weeks.

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He's running test c. He's not even going to start seeing its effects for 5 weeks.

**Honkey_Kong** · 10-20-2020, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by DustMan

Cookie cutter first cycle, depending on who you ask its almost perfect, only thing most old school guys would say is to add clomid to the PCT for the best results and start the PCT 2 weeks later like Honkey Kong says.

New school guys will tell you to do 300mg instead of 500mg for your first cycle in case you get any really negative sides. 300mg per week is plenty, you'll see mega results, you can always increase the dose to 500 next cycle.

400-500mg for a rookie is fine. You don't want to take too little and then not get the desired effects.

**The Deadlifting Dog** · 10-20-2020, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Honkey_Kong

400-500mg for a rookie is fine. You don't want to take too little and then not get the desired effects.

I am a believer in medications being bodyweight dependent. (see * below)
The larger one is the more one needs all else being equal.

Being that he is only 175lbs I think 400mg of test is a good starting point.
(I am not saying 500mg will kill him.)

* certain drugs work by blood concentration level.
Take alcohol for example.
A 300lb guy can outdrink a 150lb guy if all other factors are equal.
The volume of blood in a person's body is directly correlated with body weight.
Alcohol's effect is dependent on blood concentration levels. (Of course there is also tolerance and other factors...)

**The Deadlifting Dog** · 10-20-2020, 10:47 AM

Forgot to mention...

I am not a fan of going much below 400mg unless the person is really small.

If you are going to shut yourself down and risk your HPTA and lose some gains while your body recovers...
You may as well do enough.

If someone is on TRT then I can see doing 300mg as a feeler.

**DustMan** · 10-20-2020, 12:09 PM

Mhm, I hear that argument a lot, it makes perfect sense.

I look at a lot of guys in the TRT communities and the progress they make on 200mg a week or less and I'm really impressed by the progress they make in such little time. When you realize that the absolute genetic elite of the world are only making 70mg a week, and their levels fluctuate throughout the day and suffer if they Smoke/drink/don't get enough sleep/diet/get stressed out/etc etc etc... then you realize how beneficial having 3x+ that in your system is, especially because your levels are squared out. Normal men produce the most right after they wake up and then it fluctuates between 60-100% of that value for the rest of the day, guys on TRT / a cycle are just maxed out all the time no matter what.

Putting all the information together it seems to me, and I could be wrong, that 300mg a week is going to give you insane results assuming your diet and training are on point, where 500mg a week will give you insane results even if you train and eat like shit.

The last factor is your PCT. If you PCT smart (start at the correct time, use the correct drugs/dosages) and your genetics aren't shit you're gonna keep most of your gains from a 300mg cycle. If your genetics are garbage or you are abusing your body with alcohol/no sleep or w/e you might lose all your gains before you recover.

**Chicagotarsier** · 10-20-2020, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Honkey_Kong

He's running test c. He's not even going to start seeing its effects for 5 weeks.

First cycle is for establishing starting blood levels, following proper eating and pinning plan, verifing test cycles at midway point along with E2, following the recovery portion and compare to baseline.

If your thoughts are to gains on first cycle your mindset is wrong. Gains will happen first cycle no matter what. Understanding your bloodwork and verification of recovery is everything.

Unsure why this is no longer preached here. Austin made everyone recite the 500/week 8 week first cycle when i started.

**Abt** · 10-21-2020, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by Honkey_Kong

He's running test c. He's not even going to start seeing its effects for 5 weeks.

Yes he will lol, he will feel like pure shit those last weeks. They are not effective. Keep the cycles short.

If he goes for 10 weeks he will feel the effects for 12 weeks.

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**DustMan** · 10-21-2020, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by Abt

Yes he will lol, he will feel like pure shit those last weeks. They are not effective. Keep the cycles short.

If he goes for 10 weeks he will feel the effects for 12 weeks.

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Why would you feel like shit the last few weeks of a cycle if you haven't changed anything about the protocol?

**ghettoboyd** · 10-21-2020, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by DustMan

Mhm, I hear that argument a lot, it makes perfect sense.

I look at a lot of guys in the TRT communities and the progress they make on 200mg a week or less and I'm really impressed by the progress they make in such little time. When you realize that the absolute genetic elite of the world are only making 70mg a week, and their levels fluctuate throughout the day and suffer if they Smoke/drink/don't get enough sleep/diet/get stressed out/etc etc etc... then you realize how beneficial having 3x+ that in your system is, especially because your levels are squared out. Normal men produce the most right after they wake up and then it fluctuates between 60-100% of that value for the rest of the day, guys on TRT / a cycle are just maxed out all the time no matter what.

Putting all the information together it seems to me, and I could be wrong, that 300mg a week is going to give you insane results assuming your diet and training are on point, where 500mg a week will give you insane results even if you train and eat like shit.

The last factor is your PCT. If you PCT smart (start at the correct time, use the correct drugs/dosages) and your genetics aren't shit you're gonna keep most of your gains from a 300mg cycle. If your genetics are garbage or you are abusing your body with alcohol/no sleep or w/e you might lose all your gains before you recover.

you will not see insane results either way imho in fact you will probably think your test is bunk if you dont blow up right away...my point is you are setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations so id do at least 500 because imho its really not that much more of a hormone your body already makes...sure it seems like it numbers wise but in my experience not so much...good luck either way...

**Cuz** · 10-21-2020, 06:21 AM

I dont know how you guys tell the difference between 300, 400, or 500mg test. Id suggest 500 mg thats a good first run and possibly even second run. You’re not going to get insane results, but its a starting point. I picked up about 20lbs of weight my first cycle which was sustanon and dbol . Remember to eat and train the best you possibly can. Good luck

**Abt** · 10-21-2020, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by DustMan

Why would you feel like shit the last few weeks of a cycle if you haven't changed anything about the protocol?

his e2 will go up, he will put on alot of water weight, his body also needs to adapt slowly to his new mass, his body will tire out and he will just feel like shit. Better off keeping it like 8-10 weeks.

He probably will do other cycles after, he could extend it in those cycles if he wants

**Bunyon** · 10-21-2020, 09:18 AM

I appreciate all the replies guys. I've decided to trim the cycle down to 12 weeks, but I ordered enough supplies to prolong it to 15 weeks if everything is going well.

**DustMan** · 10-21-2020, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Abt

his e2 will go up, he will put on alot of water weight, his body also needs to adapt slowly to his new mass, his body will tire out and he will just feel like shit. Better off keeping it like 8-10 weeks.

He probably will do other cycles after, he could extend it in those cycles if he wants

The 8-10 weeks might be fine advice, but your reasoning is all horse shit.

Once his blood levels normalize (4-6 weeks) his e2 isn't going up anymore, that's just wrong. No extra e2 means no additional water weight. Adapting to new mass is also made up baloney. Tiring out from more mass is possible sure, because he has more mass to send blood to, except he's on fucking juice he's not going to get tired he's gonna feel like superman so that's also ridiculous, and even if it wasn't being a little extra tired doesn't mean you should cut your cycle 4 weeks early.

Leave the broscience at the door and go do some reading.

**Honkey_Kong** · 10-21-2020, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Chicagotarsier

First cycle is for establishing starting blood levels, following proper eating and pinning plan, verifing test cycles at midway point along with E2, following the recovery portion and compare to baseline.

If your thoughts are to gains on first cycle your mindset is wrong. Gains will happen first cycle no matter what. Understanding your bloodwork and verification of recovery is everything.

Unsure why this is no longer preached here. Austin made everyone recite the 500/week 8 week first cycle when i started.

Your first cycle isn't a dress-rehearsal. You should already have figured your diet, pinning days, when to get bloodwork done and your PCT. As far as 8 weeks on a long estered test goes, it's going to take 4-5 weeks before you even start noticing it to work (about the time it takes for your levels to stabilize).

Originally Posted by Abt

Yes he will lol, he will feel like pure shit those last weeks. They are not effective. Keep the cycles short.

If he goes for 10 weeks he will feel the effects for 12 weeks.

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His E2 level is going to be stable once his test levels stabilize. He's going to feel fine those last weeks. If he were running a short ester like test p, it'd kick in sooner and he'd get his diminishing results sooner and then his cycle should be shorter. But he's running a long ester that doesn't kick in until later and he's not going to start getting diminishing returns until later. So a 12-14 week is fine.

**Meow_Wolf** · 11-30-2020, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Honkey_Kong

400-500mg for a rookie is fine. You don't want to take too little and then not get the desired effects.

600mg week too much for first time?

**Honkey_Kong** · 11-30-2020, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Meow_Wolf

600mg week too much for first time?

That's maybe a little overkill. DD's 400-500mg a week for a first time is good. You don't want to take more than you need to. You will build up tolerance to these androgens over time. Not to mention the higher the dosage the more intense the sides will get.