Recomp Cycle Feedback

[IronClydes]

My current off-cycle cut is painfully slow and, the more I’ve read, the more I’ve come to understand that one should save their cuts & bulks for on-cycle, and stay clean at maintenance (or near to it) when off-cycle.

To save from any hard-earned muscle loss, I’m going to slow down this off-cycle cut to maintenance calories with increased cardio and the use of Austinites Fat Loss Protocol.

As result, I’m planning to make the real cut into an on-cycle recomp starting in early March.

Goal:

To cut weight from 217 to 200 (I"m 6 foot); waist from 37 to 33; BF from about 15 to 10 (or less); and to retain muscle, if not sculpting some minor aspects out a tad. This is to be my new standard to maintain - no more bulks, aside from only the leanest ones. If I get close to cut goal by cycle start in March, this recomp will become a lean bulk.

Diet:

1) For the recomp (Tren or EQ cycle), I’m thinking it will be about 2500-2700 calories at 270pro/115fat/150carbs; 100-300 calories shy of my maintenance, ideal for a recomp in past Tren cycles.

2) For lean bulk (Deca or EQ cycle), if I’m close to my cut target by cycle start, I’m thinking 3000 calories, a 200-300 calorie surplus, at 270pro/120 fat/200carb.

***Carbs never get too high as I’m an endomorph and pack on fat quickly with surpluses, ESPECIALLY in carbs. I always eat clean, low carb, high protein, high veggies, moderate fats.

Training:

Marcus’s HIT for maximum muscle growth stimulation (for reference, check out his thread at the HIT Dungeon): I’ve been doing this for years on cycle for growth; off-cycle (now until March), I stick with a modern traditional power bodybuilding with more frequency, less intensity, and moderate volume.

Cycle options:

After reviewing some specific threads, some books, and the accumulated private guidance received so far from members, I’m leaning towards one of these three for the recomp, with the other two to follow in successive cycle follows the proper off-cycle time between each.

*UPDATED AS FEEDBACK IS RECEIVED*

Cycle Option 1: 12 week cycle: 19Nor Base

100 Tren E EOD (more if sides are controlled)
60 Test C EOD (TRT dose)
30 Deca EOD (ongoing w/TRT)
50 Proviron ED (25 am; 25 pm)
10 Cialis daily (blood pressure & heart health)
10 Nolva daily (lipid support)
Starting week 4: 100 EOD Mast E

*Prami/Caber/Adex will be on hand as needed; in my previous Tren cycles I didn’t use Nolvadex (I’ve heard I may want to consider to minimize need for an AI), but I was at .25 Adex EOD & .5 Prami ED (or .25 Caber twice weekly).

If not the above cycle, the alternative recomp would be a more side-friendly dual phase one (lean bulk, then cut):

Cycle Option 2: 12-16 week cycle: Testosterone Base

W1-6: 200 EQ & 500 Test C
W7-12: 200 EQ & 160 Test C & 300 Primo

100 Deca (continues from TRT)
10 Cialis daily (blood pressure & heart health)
10 Nolva daily (lipid support)
*is there a place for Nolva in this one even though it’s not a 19Nor Base?

*No AI until mid-bloods, unless symptoms appear, then: .25 Adex EOD. However, an AI should not be needed for the last 6 weeks.

Cycle Option 3: 12-16 week cycle: 19Nor Base

600 Deca: 200 EOD (600-800/wk)
300 Test C: 100 EOD (300-400/wk)
300 Mast E: 100 EOD (300-400/wk)
OR 50 Proviron ED (25 am; 25 pm)?
10 Cialis daily (blood pressure & heart health)
10 Nolva daily (lipid support)

*No AI until mid-bloods, unless symptoms appear, then: .25 Adex EOD (AI)

*Prami/Caber will be on hand as needed; in my previous cycles I didn’t use Nolvadex (I’ve heard I may want to consider to minimize need for an AI), but I was at .25 Adex EOD & .5 Prami ED (or .25 Caber twice weekly). For Prami, titrate from .175 to .25 .35 .425 .5.

What are your thoughts? Does, AI/DA, and the overall stack seem reasonable? I've done just about most stacks now and, so far, Tren has always done the best recomp for me with sleeping issues being the only drawback.

Pictures below from 1/4/2021

[Lethal Hamburger]

My current off-cycle cut is painfully slow and, the more I’ve read, the more I’ve come to understand that one should save their cuts & bulks for on-cycle, and stay clean at maintenance (or near to it) when off-cycle.

To save from any hard-earned muscle loss, I’m going to slow down this off-cycle cut to maintenance calories with increased cardio and the use of Austinites Fat Loss Protocol.

As result, I’m planning to make the real cut into an on-cycle recomp starting in early March.

Goal is to cut weight from 220 to 200 (I"m 6 foot); waist from 37 to 33; BF from about 17 to 10 (or less); and to retain muscle, if not sculpting some minor aspects out a tad. This is to be my new standard to maintain - no more bulks, aside from only the leanest ones.

After reviewing some specific threads, some books, and accumulated private guidance received so far from members, this is where I’m leaning:

125 Tren E EOD (more if sides are controlled)
60 Test C EOD (TRT dose)
30 Deca EOD (ongoing w/TRT)
.25 Adex EOD
10 Cialis daily

Prami/Caber will be on hand as needed; in my previous Tren cycles I didn’t use Nolvadex (I’ve heard I may want to consider to minimize need for an AI), but I was at .25 Adex EOD & .5 Prami ED (or .25 Caber twice weekly).

If not the above cycle, the alternative would be a dual phase one (lean bulk, then cut):

W1-6: 200 EQ & 500 Test C
W7-12: 200 EQ & 160 Test C & 300 Primo

Throughout, would be 100 Deca (ongoing w/TRT)
.25 Adex EOD
10 Cialis daily

However, an AI may not be needed for last 6 weeks.

What are your thoughts? Does, AI/DA, and the overall stack seem reasonable? I've done just about most stacks now and, so far, Tren has always done the best recomp for me with sleeping issues being the only drawback.


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I like the first one but suggest you run nolva at a very minimum 10mg daily from week 3 of pinning tren e until 3 weeks after last pin. Your heart will love you for it. Also run your ai only when needed as on that amount of test you will need some estrogen freed up or you will feel like a dog turd on a hot skillet.
I take it the cialis is for vascularity?

[ksingh93]

My current off-cycle cut is painfully slow and, the more I’ve read, the more I’ve come to understand that one should save their cuts & bulks for on-cycle, and stay clean at maintenance (or near to it) when off-cycle.

To save from any hard-earned muscle loss, I’m going to slow down this off-cycle cut to maintenance calories with increased cardio and the use of Austinites Fat Loss Protocol.

As result, I’m planning to make the real cut into an on-cycle recomp starting in early March.

Goal is to cut weight from 220 to 200 (I"m 6 foot); waist from 37 to 33; BF from about 17 to 10 (or less); and to retain muscle, if not sculpting some minor aspects out a tad. This is to be my new standard to maintain - no more bulks, aside from only the leanest ones.

After reviewing some specific threads, some books, and accumulated private guidance received so far from members, this is where I’m leaning:

125 Tren E EOD (more if sides are controlled)
60 Test C EOD (TRT dose)
30 Deca EOD (ongoing w/TRT)
.25 Adex EOD
10 Cialis daily

Prami/Caber will be on hand as needed; in my previous Tren cycles I didn’t use Nolvadex (I’ve heard I may want to consider to minimize need for an AI), but I was at .25 Adex EOD & .5 Prami ED (or .25 Caber twice weekly).

If not the above cycle, the alternative would be a dual phase one (lean bulk, then cut):

W1-6: 200 EQ & 500 Test C
W7-12: 200 EQ & 160 Test C & 300 Primo

Throughout, would be 100 Deca (ongoing w/TRT)
.25 Adex EOD
10 Cialis daily

However, an AI may not be needed for last 6 weeks.

What are your thoughts? Does, AI/DA, and the overall stack seem reasonable? I've done just about most stacks now and, so far, Tren has always done the best recomp for me with sleeping issues being the only drawback.


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Instead of tren e i would run ace and at lower dose of 75 mg eod add mast at 400 mg ew . Nolva can be added to help with cholesterol . And at last 4 weeks just do a little cut with adjusting your macros adding some cardio and anavar at 30-50 mg /day

[IronClydes]

I like the first one but suggest you run nolva at a very minimum 10mg daily from week 3 of pinning tren e until 3 weeks after last pin. Your heart will love you for it. Also run your ai only when needed as on that amount of test you will need some estrogen freed up or you will feel like a dog turd on a hot skillet.
I take it the cialis is for vascularity?

Thanks!

Cialis helps with my blood pressure, as well as other side benefits: taken daily at 5mg off cycle, 10mg on cycle.


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[IronClydes]

Instead of tren e i would run ace and at lower dose of 75 mg eod add mast at 400 mg ew . Nolva can be added to help with cholesterol . And at last 4 weeks just do a little cut with adjusting your macros adding some cardio and anavar at 30-50 mg /day

I’ve done Tren A and E in past cycles, and I admit I liked the A better as it did more for me. However, in this case, I already have the Tren E supply so I’m rolling with it. Like I said though, I will increase dosage gradually if my body handles it well as the Tren E tends to be weaker than the A.

Now, regarding the Mast... As I understand it, you should match dosage with the Tren? Additionally, I have heard that Proviron is an even better option, over the Mast E?

Regarding Var... hate the stuff lol Multiple reasons, painful pumps, adverse lipid effect when the Tren is already bad enough, especially if I add Mast E or Proviron...


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[SampsonandDelilah]

At your BF%, the mast isn’t going to give you any cosmetic effect, it’s a mild androgen and won’t give you near the strength gains you want either.

If you’re looking for an anti E drug, then add on an AI at low dose or keep a SERM on hand. If you want something that will be synergistic to your stack, and lower SHBG while also having mild anti e properties, I would add on proviron at 50 mgs a day instead. Much cheaper (although not nearly as muscle hardening) ot will help with libido and can add the mast effect at a lower level. At 17% BF, mast will not give you an aesthetic effect

[IronClydes]

At your BF%, the mast isn’t going to give you any cosmetic effect, it’s a mild androgen and won’t give you near the strength gains you want either.

If you’re looking for an anti E drug, then add on an AI at low dose or keep a SERM on hand. If you want something that will be synergistic to your stack, and lower SHBG while also having mild anti e properties, I would add on proviron at 50 mgs a day instead. Much cheaper (although not nearly as muscle hardening) ot will help with libido and can add the mast effect at a lower level. At 17% BF, mast will not give you an aesthetic effect

OK, just so I understand correctly with regard to what I already have outlined for the Tren cycle:

Is this what you were recommending?

Tren 1-125 EOD
Test (at TRT dose w/low dose deca )
50 Proviron daily throughout cycle
10 Nolva (SERM) daily w/Adex on hand if Nolva doesn’t cut it?

Regarding the Proviron, all at once in the morning or break it into twice daily?


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[IronClydes]

Instead of tren e i would run ace and at lower dose of 75 mg eod add mast at 400 mg ew . Nolva can be added to help with cholesterol . And at last 4 weeks just do a little cut with adjusting your macros adding some cardio and anavar at 30-50 mg /day

In contrast to my last response to you, I could incorporate Tren A and make it a mix with the Tren E I already have...


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[SampsonandDelilah]

Are you gyno prone?

That’s close to the recommendation, but I would switch the nolva with the AI. Take the AI on cycle and leave the nolva if the AI doesn’t cut it. I’ll let others weigh in on AI dosages as it’s been a long time for me with running an AI...I just don’t require them and my feelings around them have changed.

For proviron dosing, I would break it up. 25 AM and 25 PM

OK, just so I understand correctly with regard to what I already have outlined for the Tren cycle:

Is this what you were recommending?

Tren 1-125 EOD
Test (at TRT dose w/low dose deca )
50 Proviron daily throughout cycle
10 Nolva (SERM) daily w/Adex on hand if Nolva doesn’t cut it?

Regarding the Proviron, all at once in the morning or break it into twice daily?


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[IronClydes]

I’m not gyno prone at all. However, I have historically incorporated Adex and that may be due to my using it. However, For my first cycle back in 2011, I ran 500 test weekly without an AI for about eight weeks before needing to use it.


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[SampsonandDelilah]

I’m not gyno prone at all. However, I have historically incorporated Adex and that may be due to my using it. However, For my first cycle back in 2011, I ran 500 test weekly without an AI for about eight weeks before needing to use it.


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Well the proviron held mitigate estrogen sides by allowing for more uptake of testosterone and leaving less to be converted into estrogen. You’ll have that on your side as well. I’m hesitant to say yes or no to an AI as it’s so individual dependent and definitely a debated topic on this forum. You’ll hear anecdotes supporting using it and refraining from it from many guys here.

What I will recommend is that if you choose to use an anti estrogen on cycle then an AI is preferred over a SERM while blasting. Save the SERM for PCT and for additional help if the AI doesn’t cut it

[IronClydes]

Well the proviron held mitigate estrogen sides by allowing for more uptake of testosterone and leaving less to be converted into estrogen. You’ll have that on your side as well. I’m hesitant to say yes or no to an AI as it’s so individual dependent and definitely a debated topic on this forum. You’ll hear anecdotes supporting using it and refraining from it from many guys here.

What I will recommend is that if you choose to use an anti estrogen on cycle then an AI is preferred over a SERM while blasting. Save the SERM for PCT and for additional help if the AI doesn’t cut it

Understood; I updated the first cycle option in my post per your feedback. Thank you.


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[tarmyg]

What will the cut diet look like?

[IronClydes]

What will the cut diet look like?

For the recomp (Tren or EQ cycle), I’m thinking it will be about 2500-2700 calories at 270pro/115fat/150carbs; 100-300 calories shy of my maintenance, ideal for a recomp in past Tren cycles.

For lean bulk (Deca or EQ cycle), if I’m close to my cut target by cycle start, I’m thinking 3000 calories, a 200-300 calorie surplus, at 270pro/120 fat/200carb.

Carbs never get too high as I’m an endomorph and pack on fat quickly with surpluses, ESPECIALLY in carbs.

I always eat clean, low carb, high protein, high veggies, moderate fats.


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[IronClydes]

Please scroll to my first post in this thread to review updates from your feedback, as well as added diet plan, and photos from today for reference as to my current condition in comparison to stated goals.

Thanks again brothers


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[Cuz]

You thinking about competing?

[IronClydes]

You thinking about competing?

Absolutely not. I had never had an interest in that. It’s more of a hobby that I take seriously and am passionate about. In fact, my training is in my basement gym, or solo on the mountain bike, so I actually don’t get very much exposure for external validation LOL in that sense, I’m about as far away from the stage as one could be. My wife, kids, and close family are really the ones that ever see me.

My goals are more based around attaining a Steve Reeves/Grecian/Adonis/Golden Ratio ideal, or similar to that…

Goal Stats:
Chest: 46.25"+
Delts: 53"+
Arms (relaxed): 16.5"+
Calves: 16.5"+
Neck: 16.5"+
Thigh (widest): 25-27"+
Waist: 33"
Weight: 200 pounds
Bodyfat: 4-5% w/ Jackson/Pollock 3; 8-10% w/Navy tape
Pelvis: 38.5"

Current Stats:
Chest: 48"
Delts: 54.5"
Arms (relaxed): 15"
Calves: 16"
Neck: 16.5"
Thigh (widest): 25"
Waist: 36.5"
Weight: 217
Bodyfat: Jackson/Pollock 3: 6.8%; Navy Tape: 18.5%
Pelvis: 40.5"


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[SampsonandDelilah]

You’re not far off from your goals, you look great (no homo). Surprised your waist is 36.5”, maybe a little bit of lower fat on your back/love handle side but you look really lean. Not sure that navy tape BF% is accurate either?

Who took your measurements? Regardless you’re really close to where you wanna be and have a great base to work with. You don’t look like a classic endomorph at all, more meso at a glance. Wheels look solid too.

I’m with you, no dreams of competing but as long as I’m happy in the mirror, my kids think I’m superman and my wife likes what she sees...then that’s good enough for me.

I saw my HS and college buddies over break and I was embarrassed for them. Dad bods, mustard stains on their shirts and wearing crocs. Put it all in a minivan and you’ve basically given up in my book.

For your goals, your recomp plan looks solid. Again, you’re at the front door of where you want to go. Obviously have a solid plan and an understanding of nutrition, I think you’ll be there in no time.

My .2

Edit - forgot to ask how old you are?

[IronClydes]

You’re not far off from your goals, you look great (no homo). Surprised your waist is 36.5”, maybe a little bit of lower fat on your back/love handle side but you look really lean. Not sure that navy tape BF% is accurate either?

Who took your measurements? Regardless you’re really close to where you wanna be and have a great base to work with. You don’t look like a classic endomorph at all, more meso at a glance. Wheels look solid too.

I’m with you, no dreams of competing but as long as I’m happy in the mirror, my kids think I’m superman and my wife likes what she sees...then that’s good enough for me.

I saw my HS and college buddies over break and I was embarrassed for them. Dad bods, mustard stains on their shirts and wearing crocs. Put it all in a minivan and you’ve basically given up in my book.

For your goals, your recomp plan looks solid. Again, you’re at the front door of where you want to go. Obviously have a solid plan and an understanding of nutrition, I think you’ll be there in no time.

My .2

Edit - forgot to ask how old you are?

Thanks!

40 years old in a couple months, but I feel a lot older lol

I do my own body fat, which is why I can only do the Jackson/Pollock 3 with a fat caliper as I can’t reach the other spots required for more accurate skinfold testing. As that number always comes up way too low for the truth, I also use the Navy Tape method as the extreme that’s likely too high. I then just watch these numbers change for relative progress, rather than a true measure.

Agreed, the love handle hold most of it. I am an Endo, I just fight hard to look like a meso.... lol if I’m not strict and disciplined, and don’t cycle, I can err much more towards the endo look again.

I usually measure the waist at the belly button, fully sucked in, and pushed out, and take the median number as waist.

Wheels are tough to grow as I do A LOT of endurance mountain biking for hobby and competition, occasionally.

I share your experience with the high school buddies I’ve interacted with online since I left the state 22 years ago and never returned. I feel ya on the kids and wife, their reactions are what gives me outside validation. Most of the rest of my family is out of shape and doesn’t understand, not have the discipline to make it happen.


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[IronClydes]

My current off-cycle cut is painfully slow and, the more I’ve read, the more I’ve come to understand that one should save their cuts & bulks for on-cycle, and stay clean at maintenance (or near to it) when off-cycle.

To save from any hard-earned muscle loss, I’m going to slow down this off-cycle cut to maintenance calories with increased cardio and the use of Austinites Fat Loss Protocol.

As result, I’m planning to make the real cut into an on-cycle recomp starting in early March.

Goal:

To cut weight from 217 to 200 (I"m 6 foot); waist from 37 to 33; BF from about 15 to 10 (or less); and to retain muscle, if not sculpting some minor aspects out a tad. This is to be my new standard to maintain - no more bulks, aside from only the leanest ones. If I get close to cut goal by cycle start in March, this recomp will become a lean bulk.

Diet:

1) For the recomp (Tren or EQ cycle), I’m thinking it will be about 2500-2700 calories at 270pro/115fat/150carbs; 100-300 calories shy of my maintenance, ideal for a recomp in past Tren cycles.

2) For lean bulk (Deca or EQ cycle), if I’m close to my cut target by cycle start, I’m thinking 3000 calories, a 200-300 calorie surplus, at 270pro/120 fat/200carb.

***Carbs never get too high as I’m an endomorph and pack on fat quickly with surpluses, ESPECIALLY in carbs. I always eat clean, low carb, high protein, high veggies, moderate fats.

Training:

Marcus’s HIT for maximum muscle growth stimulation (for reference, check out his thread at the HIT Dungeon): I’ve been doing this for years on cycle for growth; off-cycle (now until March), I stick with a modern traditional power bodybuilding with more frequency, less intensity, and moderate volume.

Cycle options:

After reviewing some specific threads, some books, and the accumulated private guidance received so far from members, I’m leaning towards one of these three for the recomp, with the other two to follow in successive cycle follows the proper off-cycle time between each.

*UPDATED AS FEEDBACK IS RECEIVED*

Cycle Option 1: 12 week cycle: 19Nor Base

100-125 Tren E EOD (more if sides are controlled)
60 Test C EOD (TRT dose)
30 Deca EOD (ongoing w/TRT)
50 Proviron ED (25 am; 25 pm)
10 Cialis daily (blood pressure & heart health)
10 Nolva daily (lipid support)
.25 Adex EOD (AI)

*Prami/Caber will be on hand as needed; in my previous Tren cycles I didn’t use Nolvadex (I’ve heard I may want to consider to minimize need for an AI), but I was at .25 Adex EOD & .5 Prami ED (or .25 Caber twice weekly).

If not the above cycle, the alternative recomp would be a more side-friendly dual phase one (lean bulk, then cut):

Cycle Option 2: 12-16 week cycle: Testosterone Base

W1-6: 200 EQ & 500 Test C
W7-12: 200 EQ & 160 Test C & 300 Primo

100 Deca (continues from TRT)
10 Cialis daily (blood pressure & heart health)
10 Nolva daily (lipid support)
*is there a place for Nolva in this one even though it’s not a 19Nor Base?

*No AI until mid-bloods, unless symptoms appear, then: .25 Adex EOD. However, an AI should not be needed for the last 6 weeks.

Cycle Option 3: 12-16 week cycle: 19Nor Base

600 Deca: 200 EOD (600-800/wk)
300 Test C: 100 EOD (300-400/wk)
300 Mast E: 100 EOD (300-400/wk)
OR 50 Proviron ED (25 am; 25 pm)?
10 Cialis daily (blood pressure & heart health)
10 Nolva daily (lipid support)

*No AI until mid-bloods, unless symptoms appear, then: .25 Adex EOD (AI)

*Prami/Caber will be on hand as needed; in my previous cycles I didn’t use Nolvadex (I’ve heard I may want to consider to minimize need for an AI), but I was at .25 Adex EOD & .5 Prami ED (or .25 Caber twice weekly). For Prami, titrate from .175 to .25 .35 .425 .5.

What are your thoughts? Does, AI/DA, and the overall stack seem reasonable? I've done just about most stacks now and, so far, Tren has always done the best recomp for me with sleeping issues being the only drawback.

Pictures below from 1/4/2021

Alright, so one of our AR Platinum Elite Hall of Famer members pm’d me advising that the Proviron was probably unnecessary since I’ll be including low dose Deca with the Tren. In his words, he saw no reason for it.

Before I remove it from the plan, I wanted to throw that out to y’all to gain agreement or valid arguments for keeping it.

Thanks


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[SampsonandDelilah]

Alright, so one of our AR Platinum Elite Hall of Famer members pm’d me advising that the Proviron was probably unnecessary since I’ll be including low dose Deca with the Tren . In his words, he saw no reason for it.

Before I remove it from the plan, I wanted to throw that out to y’all to gain agreement or valid arguments for keeping it.

Thanks


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I’m not sure what deca has to do with proviron...they’re not even in the same ballpark. Most of what I can tell you is anecdotal but there is data (I posted the YouTube link I was referring to and there’s a bunch of other articles around provirons ability to have anti-estrogenic properties as well as better utilization of free testosterone and limiting its conversion to estrogen. The video by a TRT doc calls Proviron the best wingman on the market and essentially helps the jobs of the other products on board. Proviron is an estrogen antagonist which prevents the aromatization of steroids . It also helps with free testosterone and increases androgen levels. It also has been shown to help with libido and again is an anabolic steroid enhancer (hence the wingman). It has a very strong affinity to bind with SHBG.
This means that even if you pair it with a TRT dose of testosterone, it will increase the amount of bioavailable, muscle-building testosterone in your blood. Imagine the kind of results that you can achieve if you run it with multiple compounds, like Test, Deca and Tren. If I’m running tren or deca, I keep my test at TRT dosages and find that I best mitigate sides that way...proviron helps maximize the low dose test that you take and makes it more efficient thus limiting the amount of test you need to take. Proviron is a DHT derivative, with a very strong binding affinity to androgen receptors. It has all the classic ‘positive’ traits of a DHT-derived compound.

I have ZERO vested interest and I’m sure this member is absolutely looking out for you which is great...the more knowledge the more power and ultimately it’s your body. I respond really well to proviron and like Masterone, I won’t run a 19 Nor without it.

Best of luck and I’m sure you’ll make the best choice for yourself. You certainly aren’t going to die or fail if you don’t take it, however I will argue that it has a high probability of aiding in your goals and complimenting the compounds you have laid out.

Best

[SampsonandDelilah]

One last note and then I’ll shut up.

If I’m truly looking to recomp, I’d cut out the deca and keep the AI and Nolva on hand. You have no history of gyno, correct? I would take the proviron as my anti E and as I dropped BF% and got into 10-12% range, I’d add in masteron .

Something like week test c at 250, tren e at 300, proviron at 50 and mast at 400 (starting around week 4-6).

[IronClydes]

Thanks for your quick feedback!

I was leaning the same way; in fact, I’m anxious to give this a try as it seems like I’ve wasted this opportunity for improvement over that past 8 years cycling without it.


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[IronClydes]

One last note and then I’ll shut up.

If I’m truly looking to recomp, I’d cut out the deca and keep the AI and Nolva on hand. You have no history of gyno, correct? I would take the proviron as my anti E and as I dropped BF% and got into 10-12% range, I’d add in masteron .

Something like week test c at 250, tren e at 300, proviron at 50 and mast at 400 (starting around week 4-6).

Agreed on the AI, not a fan of them, without a real established issue present. I have no gyno historical issues.

However, regarding the Nolva, I understand this to be a great supplement to help lipids? And 10 only isn’t a lot.

Low dose Deca is necessary for a multitude of chronic joint/ligament injuries; would keeping this in change your take on eliminating the AI and working in Mast?

I like your proposed cycle, and I have the mast e on hand to do this as well.


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[SampsonandDelilah]

I don’t know enough about nolva and it’s positive impact on lipids. Very interested though, so I’ll just be quiet on that one. You know your shit and your body. You’re in a great spot no matter what road you take, your hard work is evident bro

[IronClydes]

I don’t know enough about nolva and it’s positive impact on lipids. Very interested though, so I’ll just be quiet on that one. You know your shit and your body. You’re in a great spot no matter what road you take, your hard work is evident bro

Just added this question for you: Low dose Deca is necessary for a multitude of chronic joint/ligament injuries; would keeping this in change your take on eliminating the AI and working in Mast?


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[SampsonandDelilah]

No. That low of a dose is therapeutic and don’t really see it as necessitating any protocol to deal with potential sides. The mast and proviron are peas and carrots with 19 nors in my book and are enough to handle any estrogen related issues in my opinion, they also provide additional values as well above and beyond taking an AI or a SERM (lipid profile aside because I don’t know enough about that data).

Make sense?

I mean I’m one dude, but have certainly run my fair share of 19 nors and (knock on wood) have avoided the dreaded prolactin and estrogen issues that so many folks deal with. I’m also not insane with my dosages but certainly attribute a lot of that success to proviron and masteron . I’m surprised more guys haven’t jumped in and at least shared their anecdotal experiences with that combination.

Research outside of this forum and you’ll find that I’m far from alone in my thinking. The one caveat is that we are all wired so differently and it can be tough to paint with such a broad brush. That combination I’m pretty adamant about however

[IronClydes]

No. That low of a dose is therapeutic and don’t really see it as necessitating any protocol to deal with potential sides. The mast and proviron are peas and carrots with 19 nors in my book and are enough to handle any estrogen related issues in my opinion, they also provide additional values as well above and beyond taking an AI or a SERM (lipid profile aside because I don’t know enough about that data).

Make sense?

I mean I’m one dude, but have certainly run my fair share of 19 nors and (knock on wood) have avoided the dreaded prolactin and estrogen issues that so many folks deal with. I’m also not insane with my dosages but certainly attribute a lot of that success to proviron and masteron . I’m surprised more guys haven’t jumped in and at least shared their anecdotal experiences with that combination.

Research outside of this forum and you’ll find that I’m far from alone in my thinking. The one caveat is that we are all wired so differently and it can be tough to paint with such a broad brush. That combination I’m pretty adamant about however

Makes perfect sense. Thanks brother


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[Lethal Hamburger]

I don’t know enough about nolva and it’s positive impact on lipids. Very interested though, so I’ll just be quiet on that one. You know your shit and your body. You’re in a great spot no matter what road you take, your hard work is evident bro

Here is a link to a brief run down of ai and nolvas effects on lipids.
It is one of many studies you can find.
Nolva works on lipid enzymes in the liver called lipases . I am not a big fan of cancer related studies as with cancer, crazy stuff happens to cellular regulation, signaling and many other mechanisms that quite simply, keep us above ground.
I have recently discovered the recent findings for exemestane prove it to be the best opition out of the ai devils. Check it out:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19531217/

[IronClydes]

How would you revise the above accumulated advice if I switch to Tren A instead of Tren E for the proposed cycle?

I’m thinking bump the Mast E to start sooner, if so.

What else?


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[IronClydes]

Adding this for reference:

I’ve run 2 cycles of Tren A and 2 cycle of Tren E previously. Tren A always did me better.

This will be my first cycle ever, however, running the Proviron , or Nolvadex (lipid help).

I’ve only ever used Masteron with Primo and, while my free T was solid from it, the results and feeling was abysmal. So this will be my second time with Masteron, first time also using with Tren.

As such, this Tren cycle is shaping up very diffidently from my past ones...

Previous Tren cycles used the same low dose Test and Deca , with 25 Adex EOD and .25 to .5 Caber twice weekly, if not Prami at .5 nightly.

With the Proviron, Mast E, and Nolvadex.... I’m almost clueless how to dose the AI and DA...if at all, as I’m typically not gyro sensitive and dosed them more as a precaution than need, which I’m learning may have been unnecessary, if not damaging....


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[Lethal Hamburger]

At which doses of each compound have you decided?
That would determine ancillary indication/dosing/frequency etc.

I have seen evidence that would suggest certain compounds compete for the aromatase enzyme with Testosterone . The compounds produce a less bioactive or nonbioactive metabolite from aromatisation process and when these metabolites bind to estrogen receptors in place of estrogen, the outcome is less by way of typical estrogenic side effects.

Resultant indication for an ai is then in decline.

[IronClydes]

At which doses of each compound have you decided?
That would determine ancillary indication/dosing/frequency etc.

I have seen evidence that would suggest certain compounds compete for the aromatase enzyme with Testosterone . The compounds produce a less bioactive or nonbioactive metabolite from aromatisation process and when these metabolites bind to estrogen receptors in place of estrogen, the outcome is less by way of typical estrogenic side effects.

Resultant indication for an ai is then in decline.

Interesting and makes sense.

Planned cycle is
100 EOD Tren
50 EOD Test
30 EOD Deca
100 EOD Mast (unsure here)
50 ED Proviron (split am/pm)
10 ED Nolva

I’ll adjust as needed based on sides, feelings, and mid-cycle bloods.


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[Lethal Hamburger]

Interesting and makes sense.

Planned cycle is
100 EOD Tren
50 EOD Test
30 EOD Deca
100 EOD Mast (unsure here)
50 ED Proviron (split am/pm)
10 ED Nolva

I’ll adjust as needed based on sides, feelings, and mid-cycle bloods.


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That looks like a pretty solid cycle to me.
I love deca and then tren in a cycle!

[IronClydes]

Interesting and makes sense.

Planned cycle is
100 EOD Tren
50 EOD Test
30 EOD Deca
100 EOD Mast (unsure here)
50 ED Proviron (split am/pm)
10 ED Nolva

I’ll adjust as needed based on sides, feelings, and mid-cycle bloods.


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Alright, last request on this cycle; it starts in 4-days!

It’ll be as follows:

60 EOD Tren E
22.5 EOD Tren A
50 EOD Test C
30 EOD Deca
100 EOD Mast E
50 ED Proviron (25am/25pm)
10 ED Nolva
10 ED Cialis

I’ll adjust as needed based on sides, feelings, and mid-cycle bloods. Caber & Adex is on-hand.


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[IronClydes]

Okay, so I’m halfway through the cycle and my BP is getting a tad too high, and my family not enjoying the mood changes. I’m thinking about pulling the Tren plug and crossing over to a different AAS to replace it, keeping the rest the same if appropriate.

So, in hopes of pursing better BP, and moods, with the goal to cut, what would you recommend?

I have the following on hand:

EQ
Deca
Test C
Mast E
Primo

Thanks in advance, brothers!

-Iron


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[Cuz]

Primo

[IronClydes]

Primo

Thanks Cuz,

How would you make the changeover from my current cycle? And what, if any changes, would you make to substances and doses to support the changeover?


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[Cuz]

Looks like your doin alot of pinning. You could try running primo 400-600? I don’t see any need to change anything unless you we’re running caber you probably wont need it with primo. Primo is a more friendly version of tren imo but ive never ran over 300mg a week of it people say you need alot but i dont like using alot. Try whatever you feel you “need” only

[IronClydes]

Looks like your doin alot of pinning. You could try running primo 400-600? I don’t see any need to change anything unless you we’re running caber you probably wont need it with primo. Primo is a more friendly version of tren imo but ive never ran over 300mg a week of it people say you need alot but i dont like using alot. Try whatever you feel you “need” only

Thanks Cuz.

Not using an AI or DA and no issues halfway into the cycle. If it wasn’t for the blood pressure (I race mountain bikes and that concerns me at 153/65), I could handle the moodiness and finish out the cycle with Tren .


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