Short Cycles (2-3 weeks)

**Deez Nuggets** · 12-23-2003, 10:12 PM

I'm 23, 181 lbs, unsure of body fat, but as of August I was 11%.. I've also been lifting since 18.

Recently I read about 2-3 week long cycles using only fast acting esters (prop/fina to be specific) where day one consisted of a higher 'frontload' dosage and then the remaining days holding steady at a lower 'normal' dosage : 300prop/150fina day one then 100prop/75fina for the duration (14-20 days total). Now before this conversationg goes any further, if anyone has a link to where I can read more on this topic please post it. I tried many search strings
but I could not find anything.. I know how annoying a repeatedly beaten to death topic can be.

I've done 3 cycles over the past two years so i'm fairly familiar with training, dieting, steroids , and haven't touched anything since April of this year. My diet is pretty much on point and eventhough i've been off since april I have pretty much stayed inline with it.

I am also about to begin Accutane for light to moderate acne so understand my interest in a short cycle and it's 'lighter' effect on the liver.

A few points of interest in a short cycle :

1) liver damage (or less there of)
2) not interested in gaining 25+ lbs, rather 10-15lbs is general target (diet, diet, training, training, & gear will get me there).
3) Physical sides primarily acne, which already will be rough with the accutane
4) Don't want natural test to be completely shut down (from the research i've done so far, I won't be fully inhibited until after roughly wk 3) I plan on doing clomid anyway.

I'm pretty intent on starting something early january and be done by begining to mid March, when I am going away. I also plan on starting Winstrol / Primo at the end of the 2-3 weeks.

Everything I have written is open to support and/or objection.

FYI : My past three cycles have consisted of
6 wks Sust/Dbol
8 wks Sust/DBOL/Deca
8 wks Sust/EQ/fina/primo*

Thank you very much.... any information is very appreciated...

***asymmetrical1*** · 12-23-2003, 10:19 PM

i consider 8 weeks a very short cycle.....even with short esters 2-3 weeks would'nt yield anything but hormonal flux......imo wait till you have finished accutane, if your really that worried, and do the cycle right

**TheMudMan** · 12-23-2003, 10:21 PM

How long would you wait between cycles to start the next one............ I would think this type of cycle would make sides more prominent because of the unstable blood levels.

**Deez Nuggets** · 12-23-2003, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by TheMudMan

How long would you wait between cycles to start the next one............ I would think this type of cycle would make sides more prominent because of the unstable blood levels.

Thanks for the response guys,

As far as the liver is concerned, I would also be taking Milk Thistle/liver Rite & Cranberry Extract. How effective are those OTC liver Aids really?

Based on what I've read, 2 wks on (14days) and 1 month off (with or without clomid) is ideal, however 3wks on 1 month of with clomid is also ok. However, keeping within that line of thinking, the winny/primo stack is also not part of the short cycle theory. Rather I added that in for a defined/cut look before my vacation. I am naturally cut and can definitely achieve a desireable look by diet and training alone before vacation.

Any scientific support and/or objection is also definitely appreciated...

**Rickson** · 12-23-2003, 10:52 PM

Fango Wango cycles have been tried and have been unsuccessful for almost everyone. It is a rollercoaster of hormones with minimal amount of time for growth or maintenance and all the disadvantages of hpta shutdown. Believe me on this one we have tried it every way possible and it just doesn't work well long term.

**Deez Nuggets** · 12-23-2003, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Rickson

Fango Wango cycles have been tried and have been unsuccessful for almost everyone. It is a rollercoaster of hormones with minimal amount of time for growth or maintenance and all the disadvantages of hpta shutdown. Believe me on this one we have tried it every way possible and it just doesn't work well long term.

Anyone care to share personal experiences gear, duration, dosage,etc...? Details?

**Shortyrock13** · 12-23-2003, 11:33 PM

I want to know the same thing, I don't understand why a prop/winny/fina short cycle 2-4wks wouldn't yield anything as some say. This seems plainly bizzare to me. Also, alot of people who advocate against the super short cycle for a quick 5-10lb gain really don't say why they wont provide any results. This spring I plan on running a short (1month) cycle of either fina or winny w/ t3 and eca (thats right no test). Gonna keep some cialis and hcg on hand.

Also I would think that test suspension, although it'd be a bitch to inject 2x a day would yield fast results, even more quickly than prop, can't say from personal experience though.

I recieved great advice on how to cycle from the bro's on this board and it was suggested that the dosages of my test e/dbol cycle were too low and I wouldn't gain. Im up a good 20lbs and very little of it seems to be fat, had a six pack before cycle, and its still solid. Almost more than I wanted as its ****ed up my wardrobe

**Deez Nuggets** · 12-24-2003, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Shortyrock13

I want to know the same thing, I don't understand why a prop/winny/fina short cycle 2-4wks wouldn't yield anything as some say. This seems plainly bizzare to me. Also, alot of people who advocate against the super short cycle for a quick 5-10lb gain really don't say why they wont provide any results. This spring I plan on running a short (1month) cycle of either fina or winny w/ t3 and eca (thats right no test). Gonna keep some cialis and hcg on hand.

Also I would think that test suspension, although it'd be a bitch to inject 2x a day would yield fast results, even more quickly than prop, can't say from personal experience though.

I recieved great advice on how to cycle from the bro's on this board and it was suggested that the dosages of my test e/dbol cycle were too low and I wouldn't gain. Im up a good 20lbs and very little of it seems to be fat, had a six pack before cycle, and its still solid. Almost more than I wanted as its ****ed up my wardrobe

Exactly! I do not understand how it wouldn't yield anything at all? With such short acting esters and the amounts being used I would think that a 3 week long cycle would infact yield the gains I was looking for minus the sides that are accompanied with conventional 6wk + long cycles. I've read on NUMEROUS occasions that week 3-6 for people is usually the beginning of the 'advanced' growth of a cycle. I guess 'gains' is a relative term and really depends on the individual. So to restate my personal interest in this, I am only looking for a 10 - 15* lbs gain.

Can anyone provide scientific evidence to support or to object why a 3 week cycle using the esters I've mentioned in the way in which i've mentioned, would not work in yielding 10+ lbs? Front load on day one with 2-3x the dosage, then a fixed lower dosage everyday for the duration of the cycle??Afterall, after week 3, the gear is still active in the body and gains are still possible shortly after. No?

***asymmetrical1*** · 12-24-2003, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by Deez Nuggets

Exactly! I do not understand how it wouldn't yield anything at all? With such short acting esters and the amounts being used I would think that a 3 week long cycle would infact yield the gains I was looking for minus the sides that are accompanied with conventional 6wk + long cycles. I've read on NUMEROUS occasions that week 3-6 for people is usually the beginning of the 'advanced' growth of a cycle. I guess 'gains' is a relative term and really depends on the individual. So to restate my personal interest in this, I am only looking for a 10 - 15* lbs gain.

Can anyone provide scientific evidence to support or to object why a 3 week cycle using the esters I've mentioned in the way in which i've mentioned, would not work in yielding 10+ lbs? Front load on day one with 2-3x the dosage, then a fixed lower dosage everyday for the duration of the cycle??Afterall, after week 3, the gear is still active in the body and gains are still possible shortly after. No?

rickson summed it all up....go ahead run it and post your results....i want pics

**TheMudMan** · 12-24-2003, 07:16 AM

I think all 3 of us gave good reasons.............. If blood levels aren't stable then your going to kill your gains.

All I know is that longer cycles yeild better results and more keepable also.... as long as PCT is done corectly.

**Ankhefenmut** · 12-24-2003, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Deez Nuggets

Exactly! I do not understand how it wouldn't yield anything at all? With such short acting esters and the amounts being used I would think that a 3 week long cycle would infact yield the gains I was looking for minus the sides that are accompanied with conventional 6wk + long cycles. I've read on NUMEROUS occasions that week 3-6 for people is usually the beginning of the 'advanced' growth of a cycle. I guess 'gains' is a relative term and really depends on the individual. So to restate my personal interest in this, I am only looking for a 10 - 15* lbs gain.

Can anyone provide scientific evidence to support or to object why a 3 week cycle using the esters I've mentioned in the way in which i've mentioned, would not work in yielding 10+ lbs? Front load on day one with 2-3x the dosage, then a fixed lower dosage everyday for the duration of the cycle??Afterall, after week 3, the gear is still active in the body and gains are still possible shortly after. No?

Listen to Mudman and Asymmetrical bro.
This board is plastered with info on the required length of cycles and most indications state that test and others take about 2-5 weeks to kick in. So basically just when your body is getting use to the rush and is ready to grow you seem to cut it cold Turkey. And Im inclined to agree with Mudman in thinking that front loading could screw with blood levels and induce worse sides than a sustained 8-10 weeks cycle would do.

But hey, we all gotta be pioneers at one stage and thus if you go ahead you should post info/pics for the bros that follows you.

Good luck

**Shortyrock13** · 12-24-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ankhefenmut

Listen to Mudman and Asymmetrical bro.
This board is plastered with info on the required length of cycles and most indications state that test and others take about 2-5 weeks to kick in. So basically just when your body is getting use to the rush and is ready to grow you seem to cut it cold Turkey. And Im inclined to agree with Mudman in thinking that front loading could screw with blood levels and induce worse sides than a sustained 8-10 weeks cycle would do.

But hey, we all gotta be pioneers at one stage and thus if you go ahead you should post info/pics for the bros that follows you.

Good luck

so prop and suspension take 2weeks to kick in? then why do people jumpstart with prop? I thought it was a 3-4day ester? Also I think that either way you're quitting 'cold turkey' since alot of bro's advocate against tapering now.

I think my next cycle in the spring will be a 2-3weeker. I'll keep everyone updated, and sorry for the semi hijack...

Oh yah, Deez, post up that link you send about the shorteracting cycles, very informative.

**Taejoon** · 12-24-2003, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Ankhefenmut

But hey, we all gotta be pioneers at one stage and thus if you go ahead you should post info/pics for the bros that follows you.

Good luck

The only thing is, they wouldn't be pioneers, this type of thing has been tried in the past many times over and it just doesn't work. I've never run Prop or Suspension, but I do have experience with Fina, and even an ester that is that short won't yield anything until you've been on it for a couple of weeks. That's just how the body works, when it comes to hormonal changes, nothing happens fast or overnight. Even with frontloading, the body isn't ready to grow two days after you start putting these compounds into it, no matter how fast the ester is, it takes time.... But hey, don't let us stop you, if you want to do it, go right ahead. And please stop asking for "scientific evidence", the evidence is in the fact that steroids have been around forever, and have been used for just as long and during this time cycles have never worked in this manner. Also remeber, "Too much theory makes me weary", just because it sounds good on paper doesn't mean it will work in practice. Sure, we can't say exactly why running Test Suspension for 3 weeks won't give you 15 lbs of lean muscle mass, we just know that it doesn't. The reason that we don't know is because our knowledge of the human body is limited, and we can't say exactly what is going on in there every step of the way. Our knowledge is much better than it was 5-10 years ago, but it's still far from being complete. Stick with what works, not what sounds good, or is theoretically possible...

Peace

-Taejoon

***asymmetrical1*** · 12-24-2003, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Taejoon

The only thing is, they wouldn't be pioneers, this type of thing has been tried in the past many times over and it just doesn't work. I've never run Prop or Suspension, but I do have experience with Fina, and even an ester that is that short won't yield anything until you've been on it for a couple of weeks. That's just how the body works, when it comes to hormonal changes, nothing happens fast or overnight. Even with frontloading, the body isn't ready to grow two days after you start putting these compounds into it, no matter how fast the ester is, it takes time.... But hey, don't let us stop you, if you want to do it, go right ahead. And please stop asking for "scientific evidence", the evidence is in the fact that steroids have been around forever, and have been used for just as long and during this time cycles have never worked in this manner. Also remeber, "Too much theory makes me weary", just because it sounds good on paper doesn't mean it will work in practice. Sure, we can't say exactly why running Test Suspension for 3 weeks won't give you 15 lbs of lean muscle mass, we just know that it doesn't. The reason that we don't know is because our knowledge of the human body is limited, and we can't say exactly what is going on in their every step of the way. Our knowledge is much better than it was 5-10 years ago, but it's still far from being complete. Stick with what works, not what sounds good, or is theoretically possible...

Peace

-Taejoon

very good post.....shorty, you are right prop kicks in fast, a couple of days....however you won't see much change in mass or strength for at least a couple weeks...Taejoon is 100% correct, the body does not like flux or change, it likes constant levels of hormones/aas running through it...and, this has been done in the past...because everyone is always looking for an easier solution, or the easy way out....you'll see that on theese boards in many ways, like "i want to run a anavar or dbol cycle only because i don't want stick myself with needles". many think aas in itself is an easy way out, does'nt work that way

**ItalianMuscle** · 12-24-2003, 02:05 PM

Bro a short cycle won't do you any good..

**dizzle** · 12-24-2003, 03:39 PM

The only thing I've heard of that was successful was 2 weeks of M1T. I've never done it myself though, but have read many positive results of gaining a solid 5-10lbs in 2 weeks and keeping it. You might want to look into it. Other than that, I wouldn't run prop, fina or winny less than 6 weeks.

**Rickson** · 12-24-2003, 04:15 PM

Your certainly welcome to try anything but this was a hot topic about seven years ago and was tried in many different forms and with many different substances. It is really where the modern dbol bridge came from. The hope was to find a cycle which yielded some results with minimal HPTA disruption. The problem is it takes about six weeks to make and maintain a physiological change in the body so while you may gain some usually it is lost over time since the body has not had a chance to become adjusted to a new set point. Couple this with the fact that recovery was usually as long or almost as long as an 8-10 week cycle and it just never panned out the way it was hoped. Don't ask yourself whether it worked because you put on some weight but rather did you make significant muscle gains over a six month period of time.

**Shortyrock13** · 12-24-2003, 06:08 PM

Rickson, you're point about having trouble maintaining the gains of a short cycle makes sense. It seems that the majority of growth on your average long acting ester cycle is done within 6-7 weeks at the most, and after that the growth tends to be much slower or stopped. So it appears as though the next 4or so weeks of cycle are allowing the body to maintain and become acclimated to this newfound size.

Not to beat a dead horse, but what about cutting? If one is looking to cut up or diet down, I would think significant progress(fat loss) could be realized in shorter periods of time. Would there be a rebound effect of fat gain or whathave you after say a 3-5weeker of prop, winny, t-3 and eca?

**Deez Nuggets** · 12-24-2003, 07:35 PM

Further reading material i've found, one of which from this very board.

http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=34527

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum...hreadid=182799

both contain additional links, where the topic is dicussed in length w/ scientific facts (which I do believe are very important)..

However, after researching the short cycle approach, I do think I am going the conventional route of 6, maybe 8 wk cycle of tren /prop as well a post cycle therapy . Anyone care to offer some advice on a way a 6wk cycle using tren/prop? PCT?

I definitely appreciate all the advice that was given on this as well as any further advice. Thanks alot fellas....

**Taejoon** · 12-25-2003, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Shortyrock13

Not to beat a dead horse, but what about cutting? If one is looking to cut up or diet down, I would think significant progress(fat loss) could be realized in shorter periods of time. Would there be a rebound effect of fat gain or whathave you after say a 3-5weeker of prop, winny, t-3 and eca?

You don't need juice to cut. If you really wanna cut, yes, you can do that in 3-4 weeks, but you don't need Prop and Winny to do it. T-3 and ECA/Clen is the way to go, coupled with high protein and low cals. If you run Prop and winny to cut, all the arguments we just heard still apply, hormones are hormones, whether your cutting or bulking, doesn't change a thing...

Peace

-Taejoon

**TheMudMan** · 12-25-2003, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Taejoon

You don't need juice to cut. If you really wanna cut, yes, you can do that in 3-4 weeks, but you don't need Prop and Winny to do it. T-3 and ECA/Clen is the way to go, coupled with high protein and low cals. If you run Prop and winny to cut, all the arguments we just heard still apply, hormones are hormones, whether your cutting or bulking, doesn't change a thing...

Peace

-Taejoon

AS will help you spare muscle while dieting............. Also with T3 you want to run at minimum a low dose of AS like maybe vay to help with the T3 eatting away at muscle.

**humpymuscle** · 01-05-2004, 02:24 PM

I'm not pretending to be an expert, but here's a couple of tips 4 u: I think if you read the links that were provided you'll see that short cycling requires you do to do things very differently than long cycles. I think most people go on short cycles as if it were a long cycle. Can't do that.

Also, the substances u use are much more important. On long cycles, you can mix two things and eventually get some results, no prob. On short, you need a strong androgen that balances with an anabolic that has a short half life.

Why do I say this? I gained 11 pounds on my first 2 weeker in Feb, kept 8 pounds. Cycle was:
Test prop 100mg/day (Romanian good stuff, not the mexican painful stuff)
Fina 100mg/day (made it myself, good stuff)
Dbol 50mg/day (russian)
Anavar 30mg/day (spanish)

Then followed by 4 wks clomid, creatine, etc. (See the link on short cycles for details)

It is hard to find short cycle information, so if you do a search use quotes. Put this in search box: "short cycles". It will work better, so it looks for the whole term, not just short and cycles separately.

Good Luck!

**Deez Nuggets** · 01-05-2004, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by humpymuscle

I'm not pretending to be an expert, but here's a couple of tips 4 u: I think if you read the links that were provided you'll see that short cycling requires you do to do things very differently than long cycles. I think most people go on short cycles as if it were a long cycle. Can't do that.

Also, the substances u use are much more important. On long cycles, you can mix two things and eventually get some results, no prob. On short, you need a strong androgen that balances with an anabolic that has a short half life.

Why do I say this? I gained 11 pounds on my first 2 weeker in Feb, kept 8 pounds. Cycle was:
Test prop 100mg/day (Romanian good stuff, not the mexican painful stuff)
Fina 100mg/day (made it myself, good stuff)
Dbol 50mg/day (russian)
Anavar 30mg/day (spanish)

Then followed by 4 wks clomid, creatine, etc. (See the link on short cycles for details)

It is hard to find short cycle information, so if you do a search use quotes.
Search for "short cycles" will work better, so it looks for the whole term, not just short and cycles.

Good Luck!

Great post bro. Thanks alot. Question to you is, exactly how many days did you run each substance? No front load was necessary?

**humpymuscle** · 01-05-2004, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Deez Nuggets

Great post bro. Thanks alot. Question to you is, exactly how many days did you run each substance? No front load was necessary?

You run each depending on how long half-life is. I frontloaded but my heart rate went crazy, so I wouldn't recommend it (maybe because my fina was superconcentrated, I dunno).

More details here:
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum...hreadid=182799

**Deez Nuggets** · 01-05-2004, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by humpymuscle

You run each depending on how long half-life is. I frontloaded but my heart rate went crazy, so I wouldn't recommend it (maybe because my fina was superconcentrated, I dunno).

More details here:
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum...hreadid=182799

That's where I first read about these short cycles... I will be trying them in the spring.