TUF fighters the future of the sport?

**zimmy** · 05-01-2008, 11:32 AM

So I know I said i wouldn't post in here any more because of the couch fans...but I had to say... i watched TUF last night and Jesus...do these people even train? I mean this is why I don't like MMA schools usually. There is so much to learn with bjj ground work and stand up fighting that they just throw together some sort of rough mush ground game where they don't learn the little things that make ground game affective. I mean how can some one be 10-2 and have no ground work at all and sh*tty stand up? If this is the future of MMA, then I will not be happy at all.

**sprawlbrawl** · 05-01-2008, 12:22 PM

i agree you have to train each thing seperate or you donot learn the best technique

**godkilla** · 05-01-2008, 09:47 PM

not impressed with the most recent episode? neither was i. dante almost put me to sleep with the clinching and lnp. it just looks like stalling to me, or maybe confusion, i dont know, lol.

**Geordi LaForge** · 05-02-2008, 01:56 AM

MMA=/=BJJ...it was a painful realization for me as well.

As for TUF, I hate TUF. The future of the sport is guys who work their way up from smaller orgs. Not leapfrog into the UFC via reality TV.

**D-Bo Dre** · 05-02-2008, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by zimmy

So I know I said i wouldn't post in here any more because of the couch fans...but I had to say... i watched TUF last night and Jesus...do these people even train? I mean this is why I don't like MMA schools usually. There is so much to learn with bjj ground work and stand up fighting that they just throw together some sort of rough mush ground game where they don't learn the little things that make ground game affective. I mean how can some one be 10-2 and have no ground work at all and sh*tty stand up? If this is the future of MMA, then I will not be happy at all.

I wouldnt worry, dont think ur usual negative comments have been missed

**Bastard Samurai** · 05-03-2008, 01:25 PM

IMO I think it's just another chance to make it to the "big leagues", more power to them. MOST of the winners of TUF have gone on to have pretty good careers, Mac Danzig looked pretty good last PPV and Nate Diaz is slowly earning my respect, even though as a person, he seems like a douche.

**Bastard Samurai** · 05-03-2008, 01:27 PM

Oh and don't forget it was TUF fighters Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonner that pretty much catapulted MMA into mainstream culture and earned the sport more respect than it was getting at the time.

**Panzerfaust** · 05-04-2008, 10:07 AM

I don't post much either but Zimmy is 100% correct. Everytime I see a TUF fight, I hear Dana in my head saying "The UFC is the elite MMA orginzation in the world"..and I chuckle.

Honest to god, 90% of these TUF fighters are clueless and most of them have maybe 1-2 fights.

IMO it makes the sport look bad, you have to remember that your average joe shmoe fan doesnt have a clue anyway, so it makes it even worse when these guys don't either.

The fight from last week was probably the most pathetic ever, it was 15 minutes of walking towards each other, throwing some extremely horrible punch and clinch and push to the cage. At least Rampage's guy tried to finish.

TUF is nothing more than a money maker now and the whole idea is washed up and is attracting nothing but wannabes.

Don't get me wrong there has been some quality talent from the show such as Forrest, Rashad, Bisping, Kos, Diego, Danzig (was already established though), Nate Diaz to name a few.

**D-Bo Dre** · 05-04-2008, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by muriloninja

I don't post much either but Zimmy is 100% correct. Everytime I see a TUF fight, I hear Dana in my head saying "The UFC is the elite MMA orginzation in the world"..and I chuckle.

Honest to god, 90% of these TUF fighters are clueless and most of them have maybe 1-2 fights.

IMO it makes the sport look bad, you have to remember that your average joe shmoe fan doesnt have a clue anyway, so it makes it even worse when these guys don't either.

The fight from last week was probably the most pathetic ever, it was 15 minutes of walking towards each other, throwing some extremely horrible punch and clinch and push to the cage. At least Rampage's guy tried to finish.

TUF is nothing more than a money maker now and the whole idea is washed up and is attracting nothing but wannabes.

Don't get me wrong there has been some quality talent from the show such as Forrest, Rashad, Bisping, Kos, Diego, Danzig (was already established though), Nate Diaz to name a few.

Do you realize that with your last sentence you completely contradicted your above non-sense?? It's quite funny how almost every TUF finalist turns out to be top contenders in the UFC and yet you and your bf zimmy still manage to find a way to hate...

**zimmy** · 05-05-2008, 06:24 AM

not just the finalist...I'm talking the entire casts of each season of TUF...They fight like straight amatures...i mean hell, most of them are. I don't know if you train Dre, but when you do...the little things make all the difference. When you have people who don't know how to put your feet properly when you have some one's back so they don't toss you off...that is just fuc*ing rediculous. And seriously... this isn't sherdog...keep the shitting talking to yourself

**godkilla** · 05-05-2008, 08:34 AM

i gotta agree with murilo and zimmy here. i took kickboxing and boxing for a couple yrs and i gotta say, when i watch some of these tuf and even ufc fighter strike i wanna reach through the screen and choke them. its painful to watch that some of these "pro" fighters dont even know basic things like footwork and proper stance. so instead of trying to strike they hold a leg, clinch, lnp, stall, w/e you wanna call it.

**Bastard Samurai** · 05-05-2008, 11:17 AM

Yeah most of the competitors are a joke but the overall winners they produce are pretty impressive and I think more than makes up for it. Besides it's just funny to watch how retarded some of these guys are. But I agree that they should train each aspect separately to get the best foundation and then they can get creative in the application of their fundamentals.

**WarMachine311** · 05-05-2008, 11:27 AM

its easy to sit back and criticize when yall are sitting behind a computer. when your in the heat of a fight sometimes u dont think about the little things, thats why the tuf guys are there, to learn and get better. so dont expect the best fight you have ever seen cuz most of those guys are still learning. at least they got the balls to get in there and put it all on the line.

**zimmy** · 05-05-2008, 11:45 AM

That's just it... the show shouldn't be a "learning experience". These are supposed to be fighters that are competting for a contract. There are hundreds of fighters out there qualified and working there way up the slow way. Every school has atleast 1 serious contender. These guys on the show are all amatures (except the second chance show). When I question fundamentals...i'm not talking little mistakes... like nervously giving up a position...i'm talking about not knowing BASICS. And you say it's easy to judge behind a computer... i fought... i know I don't have the reflexes / talent to make a career out of it. But that doesn't mean that I don't see what is wrong. It sounds like i'm nit picking but comon people... the difference between a solid triangle and a lousy crank is just a few inches difference.

**Panzerfaust** · 05-05-2008, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by D-Bo Dre

Do you realize that with your last sentence you completely contradicted your above non-sense?? It's quite funny how almost every TUF finalist turns out to be top contenders in the UFC and yet you and your bf zimmy still manage to find a way to hate...

Nope, because I said 90% suck...so that means maybe 10% of them are keepers. Nice try though asshat!

**Geordi LaForge** · 05-05-2008, 03:18 PM

TUF finalists become "top contenders" because they are groomed to be top contenders. A few probably would've been anyway, but in many cases, even the best of the TUF crop are mediocre.

The TUF-noobs on this thread cannot possibly know what they're talking about. If you don't remember what the UFC was like before TUF, and more importantly if you haven't trained seriously for an extended period of time, you simply are not qualified for this debate.

**D-Bo Dre** · 05-05-2008, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by zimmy

not just the finalist...I'm talking the entire casts of each season of TUF...They fight like straight amatures...i mean hell, most of them are. I don't know if you train Dre, but when you do...the little things make all the difference. When you have people who don't know how to put your feet properly when you have some one's back so they don't toss you off...that is just fuc*ing rediculous. And seriously... this isn't sherdog...keep the shitting talking to yourself

Soo, Is your argument simply that u believe every single competitor on TUF should be of "professional" status?!?

It’s a COMPETITION based show, meaning the best get weeded out and the worst fall back.. Sure it would be ideal if EVERY competitor were not an amateur, "knew how to put their feet properly" etc.. BUT once again it’s not a paper-view event we are tuning in on every week here, stop ur bitchin

.. Good fights will be seen (Forest vs. Bonner) and bad fights will be seen (the fight ur referring to )...

I honestly don’t know why I bother debating w/ you and your bf Murillo.. Either you guys are bitchin, hating, making smartass remarks about members knowledge (or lack thereof) on MMA, fighting, training experience, etc.. Sorry to break it to ya,, but you using the expression "Couch Fan" in a degrading manner does not make you sound tougher or more knowledgeable.. Id becarefull on how loosely you use that term b/c I would put my money that their might just be a few "couch fans" out there who would shut that stereo-type down AND turn around and maybe even kick your A** in the mean time

Anyways,, I said my share you can go back to ur miserable lives

**rockinred** · 05-05-2008, 07:37 PM

I am a "couch fan" and I say those dudes on that show are a joke... lil kids. I remember when the ufc use to have nothing but hardcore dudes.... I was watching that and had to change it cause it looked like a couple of teens fighting on you tube.

anyways, I am not siding with anyone on the thread arguing cause I think both d-bo has some points and zimmy...

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about the kids on tv...

**D-Bo Dre** · 05-05-2008, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by rockinred

I am a "couch fan" and I say those dudes on that show are a joke... lil kids. I remember when the ufc use to have nothing but hardcore dudes.... I was watching that and had to change it cause it looked like a couple of teens fighting on you tube.

anyways, I am not siding with anyone on the thread arguing cause I think both d-bo has some points and zimmy...

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about the kids on tv...

Bro, if you really think about it aren’t most of us "couch fans"?? I mean, unless if your physically in that fight at that very moment, orrrrr your a bum and dont HAVE a couch to so sit on while you watch fights on tv.. Then i guess maybe we'd be referred to as "floor fans"

lol

Don’t get me wrong Im all for a bad-ass fight!! And I also think last week fight was pathetic.. Buttt, when your a regular on this forum and are constantly reading bashing threads like these it kinda gets to u.. Especially when they’re coming from the same ppl who believe no one else's opinion deserves a respectable response...

**heavyhitter08** · 05-05-2008, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by D-Bo Dre

Soo, Is your argument simply that u believe every single competitor on TUF should be of "professional" status?!?

It’s a COMPETITION based show, meaning the best get weeded out and the worst fall back.. Sure it would be ideal if EVERY competitor were not an amateur, "knew how to put their feet properly" etc.. BUT once again it’s not a paper-view event we are tuning in on every week here, stop ur bitchin

.. Good fights will be seen (Forest vs. Bonner) and bad fights will be seen (the fight ur referring to )...

I honestly don’t know why I bother debating w/ you and your bf Murillo.. Either you guys are bitchin, hating, making smartass remarks about members knowledge (or lack thereof) on MMA, fighting, training experience, etc.. Sorry to break it to ya,, but you using the expression "Couch Fan" in a degrading manner does not make you sound tougher or more knowledgeable.. Id becarefull on how loosely you use that term b/c I would put my money that their might just be a few "couch fans" out there who would shut that stereo-type down AND turn around and maybe even kick your A** in the mean time

Anyways,, I said my share you can go back to ur miserable lives

**Geordi LaForge** · 05-06-2008, 09:42 AM

Either you guys are bitchin, hating, making smartass remarks about members knowledge (or lack thereof) on MMA, fighting, training experience, etc.. Sorry to break it to ya,, but you using the expression "Couch Fan" in a degrading manner does not make you sound tougher or more knowledgeable.. Id becarefull on how loosely you use that term b/c I would put my money that their might just be a few "couch fans" out there who would shut that stereo-type down AND turn around and maybe even kick your A** in the mean time

Bro, if you really think about it aren’t most of us "couch fans"??

me=Grappling Instructor/Amatuer Fighter

yoo=couch fan

**rockinred** · 05-06-2008, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Geordi LaForge

me=Grappling Instructor/Amatuer Fighter

yoo=couch fan

So what? Are we suppose to be impressed? an opinion is an opinion.

I don't like the idea that you are trying to puff your chest out to those who watch the sport because "you claim you are in it". The other day I was shopping for a 150lb heavy bag and this little snot nosed, punk, highschool kid told me I didn't need one that heavy??? I was like wtf? I said "oh really?" and he said no body at my MMA gym uses those and my instructor told me. I just said do you have any or not? he said "no" and I walked out, thinking that if I would have hit him once I would have literally crushed his skull. I didn't even go into how many heavy bags i have worked or tore up or anything about the subject. I just let him think he was the "man" and I was the "couch fan". dude literally weighed about a buck o'five and must have been a junior in high school.

I don't know much about you, but I do know there is a big misconception about spectators and those who claim they are in it. I make good money doing what I do.. no need to try and make a living doing that. Doesn't mean I don't have a credible opinion about fights and what is good and what isn't.

**Jojoe** · 05-07-2008, 08:06 PM

I agree on learnign everything but it doesnt have to be sepreate schools. I also agree that you should work your way up the UFC. A truly good MMA school will teach all things seprate and than have a class to blend them all and show how to mix them well. Take FLO MMA (flomma.com plug LOL) We have Comprido (7X World champ) & Christian Ufflacker teach BJJ Classes, Fres Oquendo (#10 heavyweight boxer) help us in boxing and a couple Thai instructers. We have MMA classes but also have to take each individual classes to focus on thier skill sets.

**Panzerfaust** · 05-07-2008, 08:33 PM

Sounds like there are lots of Jermey May fans on this thread!

**zartan** · 05-12-2008, 04:43 PM

I just like how Dana White tries to be all hard at the start saying 'we're gonna find out who the pvssies are" and yet what has ever done, fvcking Tae Bo instructer?

When UFC starts ranking people and following more of a boxing format their fights/belts will be so much more meaningful.

Its funny I think I actually recognize that Ashir guy or whatever his name is with the gay pseudo mohawk from an mma place called Prodigy in Richmond, Va. He was trying to get some boxing sparring in before an amateur mma bout and my friend broke his nose :P

**Geordi LaForge** · 05-12-2008, 10:38 PM

So what? Are we suppose to be impressed? an opinion is an opinion.

The difference being that an informed opinion is actually worth considering...

I don't know much about you, but I do know there is a big misconception about spectators and those who claim they are in it. I make good money doing what I do.. no need to try and make a living doing that. Doesn't mean I don't have a credible opinion about fights and what is good and what isn't.

I know guys that don't train at all who can kick my ass, but that doesn't make them better judges of the relative skill of TUF fighters. Furthermore, I dunno why you're trying to argue with me seeing as you posted this:

"I am a "couch fan" and I say those dudes on that show are a joke... lil kids. I remember when the ufc use to have nothing but hardcore dudes.... I was watching that and had to change it cause it looked like a couple of teens fighting on you tube."

Which was the point I was trying to make.

I just like how Dana White tries to be all hard at the start saying 'we're gonna find out who the pvssies are" and yet what has ever done, fvcking Tae Bo instructer?

I hate Dana White with a passion.

**rockinred** · 05-13-2008, 01:49 PM

Geordi,

I just got a lil offended because I stated I was a couch fan aka spectator.. and then you puffed up on D-BO saying about yourself... we both agree the tuf fighters are not so tough...

It just seems that constantly, everywhere I go, I run into "MMA" tough guys and when you said that about couch fan and your profession I kind got bent a little....

To go back to your credibility statement, it really doesn't matter if you are in the cage or not... you can talk to many accomplished cage fighters, boxers, and they all have a different opinion of someone...

that means an opinion is an opinion... I use to box when I was young and wrestled in HS.. I have been in plenty of street fights too... when I see some dudes squaring off in the cage and they look like scrubs... in my head, my opinion counts because I have seen plenty of tough dudes. If the dudes are weaklings I say my opinon... any guy who says I am a cage fighter and your not, so don't speak about the matter....I just say so what? that's it... not trying to disrespect you.

**Geordi LaForge** · 05-14-2008, 05:27 AM

Anyone who says "I'm a cage fighter" deserves a punch in the face. My point was that I do this all the time, I analyze fighters and fights constantly and assess people's skill level on a regular basis, so I don't feel like I'm going out on a limb when I say that while you may be a tough guy and have some idea what you're talking about, I figure I almost certainly know a little more. I'm not talking about simple opinion, because I have opinions that are as full of shit as the next guy, but when I break things down in detail and analyze a fighter (assuming I have adequate data to work with) that's more than just an opinion. It's expert analysis.

I'm not trying to be a douche, and I think you have a better idea what you're talking about than a lot of people I encounter, but I think analyzing fighters is a skill, and like any skill, the more you use it, the better you get, and I use it more.

**rockinred** · 05-14-2008, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Geordi LaForge

Anyone who says "I'm a cage fighter" deserves a punch in the face. My point was that I do this all the time, I analyze fighters and fights constantly and assess people's skill level on a regular basis, so I don't feel like I'm going out on a limb when I say that while you may be a tough guy and have some idea what you're talking about, I figure I almost certainly know a little more. I'm not talking about simple opinion, because I have opinions that are as full of shit as the next guy, but when I break things down in detail and analyze a fighter (assuming I have adequate data to work with) that's more than just an opinion. It's expert analysis.

I'm not trying to be a douche, and I think you have a better idea what you're talking about than a lot of people I encounter, but I think analyzing fighters is a skill, and like any skill, the more you use it, the better you get, and I use it more.

**QuieTSToRM33** · 05-14-2008, 01:53 PM

There's an awful lot of bullshit going on in this thread as well as this forum as of late.

Everyone thinks they're a "tough guy or an expert."

Whether you train/fight or you're just the average "couch fan" ... everyone has an opinion and everyone believes that their own opinion is right.

What's the point of going back and forth arguing like a bunch of little kids ?

Are you going to achieve anything by trying to prove your opinion as opposed to disproving the other guy's ?

Give it up already ... everyone.

**zartan** · 05-14-2008, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by QuieTSToRM33

There's an awful lot of bullshit going on in this thread as well as this forum as of late.

Everyone thinks they're a "tough guy or an expert."

Whether you train/fight or you're just the average "couch fan" ... everyone has an opinion and everyone believes that their own opinion is right.

What's the point of going back and forth arguing like a bunch of little kids ?

Are you going to achieve anything by trying to prove your opinion as opposed to disproving the other guy's ?

Give it up already ... everyone.

Everything he said is true, and HES RIGHT!

**rockinred** · 05-14-2008, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by QuieTSToRM33

There's an awful lot of bullshit going on in this thread as well as this forum as of late.

Everyone thinks they're a "tough guy or an expert."

Whether you train/fight or you're just the average "couch fan" ... everyone has an opinion and everyone believes that their own opinion is right.

What's the point of going back and forth arguing like a bunch of little kids ?

Are you going to achieve anything by trying to prove your opinion as opposed to disproving the other guy's ?

Give it up already ... everyone.

You should elaborate on who you are talking to because basically anyone who posted on this thread can get offended...

**zartan** · 05-14-2008, 04:14 PM

Everyone does tend to think they're tough.. even if yer a 15 year old 130lb kid with 4ft long t-shirt and gold chain w/ matching 'bling' amulet, you inevitably think you're tough. I'm not sure what that is aside from good ole human nature. Everyone doesn't think they're experts though. I mean some people are experts, but regardless everyone is entitled to an opinion. A lot of times arguing is a good way to learn, helps to expose the weak points of your argument. On a side note, its amusing how many of the fight commentator 'experts' are complete retards. I've been following the sport since day 1 of UFC religiously, as many of us have. The fight commentators have certainly improved since those days, but man a lot of them still have no clue, some have a clue but are complete fvckheads, take Joe Rogan for example. I liken him to Dana White, struttin' around, shameless promotion and bullshit talking with really not much in the way of backup. I wish that Wesley Snipes/Joe Rogan fight had happened. I don't care who wins it just woulda been nice to see some famous ****s get beat up. Better yet Dana White vs Tito Ortiz...

**SBB** · 05-14-2008, 08:09 PM

just a little note from.. lets just say im just a guy...

heres an equation for you to think about

the marketing of the characters in mma (eg TUF) = more knowlegde about the sport = more interest in the (now economically endangered) sport = more demand = more pressure to produce fighters = better support for gyms/teams from sponsors = better pay for fighters = better financial life for fighters = more interest to be a fighter = creates more skilled fighters due to competition being raised = better viewing for you all!

i know there are some nutjobs in the sport.. but a fighter is ranked on who he takes. not how many...

so forget about that and consider the equation.. its aaaaall about the equation ok.. so good on Dana for creating TUF!

**D-Bo Dre** · 05-14-2008, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by SBB

just a little note from.. lets just say im just a guy...

heres an equation for you to think about

the marketing of the characters in mma (eg TUF) = more knowlegde about the sport = more interest in the (now economically endangered) sport = more demand = more pressure to produce fighters = better support for gyms/teams from sponsors = better pay for fighters = better financial life for fighters = more interest to be a fighter = creates more skilled fighters due to competition being raised = better viewing for you all!

i know there are some nutjobs in the sport.. but a fighter is ranked on who he takes. not how many...

so forget about that and consider the equation.. its aaaaall about the equation ok.. so good on Dana for creating TUF!

Thank you!! Damn, at least someone is looking at the overall picture and putting their wack-ass dislikes toward TUF, Dana White, and UFC org aside for the common good of the sport!

Here’s one thing you have to understand about the self proclaimed MMA "experts" on this board my friend... When anyone even mentions the above, they automatically feel it’s an OBLIGATION to defend what they believe should righteously be the way MMA should be perceived (Let’s call it the Pre-UFC; PRIDE Era)... It was then when the once considered underground sport had a few selected group of followers (well compared to what it is now).. Sooo, in turn, this made them feel all fuzzy inside to think that their sport was a secret, and only being watched by them with everyone else in the dark.. BUT,, what you have now, are some of these "Pre-UFC; Pride Era ppl" upset b/c TUF went mainstream and now the "couch fans" are digging their sport!! And guess what?!? They even have their own opinions! They like different fighters, styles of fighting, etc etc..

Listen, Like RockinRed mentioned... Someone may label me as a "couch fan" bc Im yet to join an MMA school (I currently don’t have the time, nor want to dish out the big monthly memberships yet).. BUT, that doesnt mean I cant have an opinion on shit.. I also used to box a few yrs back, currently have many friends who train MMA, have been watching the sport for many many yrs (pre-UFC: Pride era) and have had my fair share of street fights also... OPINIONS ARE LIKE A$$HOLES,, EVERYONES GOT ONE! EVEN IF THEY DO STINK! So let's stop this lil tough guy, know it all attitudes, and get off your high horses..

**QuieTSToRM33** · 05-15-2008, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by rockinred

You should elaborate on who you are talking to because basically anyone who posted on this thread can get offended...

I could care less if someone gets offended ... it's the truth.

**rockinred** · 05-15-2008, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by QuieTSToRM33

There's an awful lot of bullshit going on in this thread as well as this forum as of late.

And you just contributed to the exact same BS with this post... basically stated your opinion and try to put closure on the statement as if it is factual or no other opinion matters. You also just added to all the negativity of this thread....lol .

Everyone thinks they're a "tough guy or an expert."

You sound similar by posting this to set everyone straight

Whether you train/fight or you're just the average "couch fan" ... everyone has an opinion and everyone believes that their own opinion is right.

I agree

What's the point of going back and forth arguing like a bunch of little kids ?

what's the point of having a discussion board if you don't talk back and forth on what you agree, disagree, like, or dislike etc..?? Heck you just did the exact same thing everyone else on this thread in your own way

Are you going to achieve anything by trying to prove your opinion as opposed to disproving the other guy's ?

probably not, but I give a perspective and opinion, not trying to convince anyone... it is the internet... heck, me and bros sit back and argue over same stuff all the time... then laugh at eachother... no biggie to me really.

Give it up already ... everyone.

I will when you do... but then we won't post anymore

...lol

Have a good day!!! I am being genuine and serious with that statement, not sarcastic. this is just for fun and to share opinions. If someone gets out of line they start flaming and get banned... other than that, let the opinions fly...imo

**QuieTSToRM33** · 05-15-2008, 11:23 AM

With regards to your bold ....

I haven't contributed any bullshit to this thread ... I'm not calling anyone any names or talking down to anyone or saying that their opinion is worthless, etc... I simply saw everything from outside the box and made an observation. Being that you were "inside the box", you clearly didn't see the point I was trying to make.

Apparently you were offended since you only decided to break down my post when I said "I didn't give a damn if someone got offended," and to be honest I really don't.

With that said ... you guys can keep on going back and forth with your mindless bickering, which some consider intelligent discussion.

**rockinred** · 05-15-2008, 11:41 AM

who said this was intelligent stuff???

ok, I give up... I won't post on this thread anymore... you win.

**QuieTSToRM33** · 05-15-2008, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by rockinred

who said this was intelligent stuff???

ok, I give up... I won't post on this thread anymore... you win.

You can post all you want man ... my original post wasn't directed at you in particular ... it was for everyone who was involved.

And it's not about "winning" ... it's about bringing this forum back to what it was a couple years ago.