Is it wrong to expect fighters...

[Knockout_Power]

Im probably going to take a lot of slack for this, but after the last PPV I was wondering if it is right to expect the fighters to put aside their ego's, win/loss records etc to put on a show for the fans.

Normally, I have always believed that fighting is an art and each fighter does what they plan out to do. BUT... since this is now a billion dollar industry, and the fighters make some decent paychecks as a result, I ask the question...

Is it right to expect these fighters to entertain us rather than only focus on not losing, not getting knocked out etc?

Thoughts?

[NathanSummers]

they need to start handing out yellow card like they did in pride and deduct from the fighters purse, otherwise theres no real threat besides being booed and dana white making an angry face at you

[QuieTSToRM33]

You're in there to win ... plain and simple.

Everything else is secondary.

[NathanSummers]

You're in there to win ... plain and simple.

Everything else is secondary.

Ya but if they're paying you alot of money to be interesting, they should be able to take some away if it was a completely boring fight, aka silve ufc 97.

I used to order all the ufc events, now i only order the ones where the cards look really good, now im not sure if thats going to work. And im sure im not the only one that feels that way, so the ufc is now losing more money because of one of their top paid fighters, does that sound right???

[MIKE_XXL]

I think the differance is "Fighting to win" or "Fighting NOT to loose" Silva deffinitly faught not to loose, and it showed in his last two fights...i hope Hendo gets another crack at him as i think he will take Anderson down this time...

[WARMachine]

Ya but if they're paying you alot of money to be interesting, they should be able to take some away if it was a completely boring fight, aka silve ufc 97.

I used to order all the ufc events, now i only order the ones where the cards look really good, now im not sure if thats going to work. And im sure im not the only one that feels that way, so the ufc is now losing more money because of one of their top paid fighters, does that sound right???

Yeah im sure the almost billion dollar company is hurting over not getting your 45 bucks.

I think the differance is "Fighting to win" or "Fighting NOT to loose" Silva deffinitly faught not to loose, and it showed in his last two fights...i hope Hendo gets another crack at him as i think he will take Anderson down this time...

I cant believe how quick some people are to jump on and off the bandwagons.

What do you want the guy to do. Thales only threw 20 punches the entire fight, and everytime AS hit him, he went to his back!

Anderson fought a smart good fight. Sure it wasnt the most excited fight ive ever seen, but he beat him fairly easily.

[collar]

well maybe they can set up a system like they did in pride.
where there is yellow card and deduction, that may help.
for example like times where thales was just looked like running, can get some type of warning or yellow card.
to just spice it up a little.

[WARMachine]

^ Wishful thinking im afraid.

But i did enjoy the yellow card system. To think of it, i dont recall any real boring fights in PRIDE.

[QuieTSToRM33]

But i did enjoy the yellow card system. To think of it, i dont recall any real boring fights in PRIDE.

That's cause kicks/knees to a downed opponent were allowed ... not cause of yellow cards.

[NathanSummers]

Yeah im sure the almost billion dollar company is hurting over not getting your 45 bucks.

.

I'm saying that if i think that, more people think that, and then more people, than that billion dollar company isn't a billion dollar company anymore

[NathanSummers]

They're were boring fights in pride just the fighters lost a bunch of money because they could keep carding them and deducting from the purses.

You'd be surprised how big of a motivation money is.

[WARMachine]

That's cause kicks/knees to a downed opponent were allowed ... not cause of yellow cards.

lol...

Ive seen wars when no one threw kicks to the head of a downed fighter.

Buscape vs. Avy? Ring some bells?

lol. Best display of BJJ in any fight ive ever seen.

[QuieTSToRM33]

lol...

Ive seen wars when no one threw kicks to the head of a downed fighter.

Buscape vs. Avy? Ring some bells?

lol. Best display of BJJ in any fight ive ever seen.

This is true ... I just miss Shogun's flying stomps to the head and his soccer kicks.

If Anderson would've been able to do that on Saturday night ... we might not be having this conversation.

[collar]

They're were boring fights in pride just the fighters lost a bunch of money because they could keep carding them and deducting from the purses.

You'd be surprised how big of a motivation money is.

HAHA i like how you use purses lol

[WARMachine]

This is true ... I just miss Shogun's flying stomps to the head and his soccer kicks.

If Anderson would've been able to do that on Saturday night ... we might not be having this conversation.

^^^ I know right?!

[NathanSummers]

HAHA i like how you use purses lol

Ya that is funny thats what they call the money the fighters take home in some of the most hardcore sports. I wonder how that started?

[Brown Ninja]

I blame the business model more than the fighters. Some feel it's nothing more than entertainment, a la WWE, and others feel it's the clash of numerous art forms and is the ultimate form of competition. I think the truth probably lies somewhere in between.

The problem remains that the UFC demands exciting fights at the cost of winning. Look at Matt Lindland possibly the best 185 lb fighter on the planet for several years but he got cut because he was boring. Now look at people like Baroni and Houston Alexander. Shit fighters with a persona and a tendency to stand and bang. Dana and the UFC protect that bullshit but let Bustamante, Lindland, and Wedum walk?

[Hunter]

I blame the business model more than the fighters. Some feel it's nothing more than entertainment, a la WWE, and others feel it's the clash of numerous art forms and is the ultimate form of competition. I think the truth probably lies somewhere in between.

The problem remains that the UFC demands exciting fights at the cost of winning. Look at Matt Lindland possibly the best 185 lb fighter on the planet for several years but he got cut because he was boring. Now look at people like Baroni and Houston Alexander. Shit fighters with a persona and a tendency to stand and bang. Dana and the UFC protect that bullshit but let Bustamante, Lindland, and Wedum walk?

Huge Lindland fan. He finished fights and whether people want to admit it or not he beat the hell out of alot of guys. Sure he is ugly, most likely smells and not a striking god but for me he was a pleasure to watch. When they wanted him to play up to camera he became a heel and his fan base dropped he even more. That is why I dislike uncle fester.

[Knockout_Power]

Hmmm, I think I was misunderstood a bit. I wasen't directing this question towards the last Silva fight, just the recent tendency of fights. I place the blame more on thales than silva anyways. If you're given a title shot, you take it. Not just participate "IF" it goes your way ei. you get the takedown and submission. So many fighters are going with the attitude "well, what I wanted to do isnt working, so F it, Im running down the clock."

I do agree that a naturally gifted fighter should be allowed to fight his fight no matter how boring ei. (lindland as stated)... but if thats not what the paying fan wants to see, where does it leave the sport? No one pays so see OR bring in the fights/fighters people will pay to see. Business, dictates the former.

[BgMc31]

I blame the business model more than the fighters. Some feel it's nothing more than entertainment, a la WWE, and others feel it's the clash of numerous art forms and is the ultimate form of competition. I think the truth probably lies somewhere in between.

The problem remains that the UFC demands exciting fights at the cost of winning. Look at Matt Lindland possibly the best 185 lb fighter on the planet for several years but he got cut because he was boring. Now look at people like Baroni and Houston Alexander. Shit fighters with a persona and a tendency to stand and bang. Dana and the UFC protect that bullshit but let Bustamante, Lindland, and Wedum walk?

I think you're on to something here Ninja. Dana was a huge boxing fan, so he his outlook on building MMA was the exact opposite of what he believed fueled boxing. He noticed in boxing the most exciting boxers (Gatti, Tyson, Ward), we some of the biggest draws, while the best fighters who weren't mixing it up, but winning convincingly weren't doing the numbers. So he's built his MMA empire off of what he thinks the casual fan wants to see...ACTION!!!

Now, I'm as much against this as anyone, but lets face it, there isn't enough hardcore MMA fans who appreciate the nuiances of MMA to understand what constitutes a technical fight as opposed to a brawl, to support the sport. The casual fans fuel the sport and make him BIG money. You can't blame the man for being a smart business man.

[zimmy]

Want some one to make the fight "interesting" go watch wrestling...they'll act some stuff out for you. I'd rather see a technical fight. I have seen some fights where I over hear couch fans (usually at hooters) screaming stuff like "stop hugging" , and "get up and fight" even though the fighters are putting on a GREAT show going from position to position.

[WARMachine]

Dana and the UFC protect that bullshit but let Bustamante, Lindland, and Wedum walk?

Murilo left because the UFC was paying him peanuts. At that time, Dana White called him the best P4P fighter in the world. And it was true...

Lindland left for two reasons.
1) He got KO'd in under 30secs.
2) Money talks.

And Werdum leaving...

Well, he did get stopped pretty badly against Santos. Though i dont think that warrants him getting cut.

Either way, all three guys didnt deserve to be treated this way. Of course, there're countless others who have had the same thing happen by Zuffa.

[Brown Ninja]

Everyone makes great points and I agree for the most part. Truth is that it's a business and it is ran like one, like it or not. I personally don't. I feel like the "casual" fan ruins the sport I love. How many times have you seen a ground war where people complain and call the athletes faggots or boring? It's a joke the best fighters in the world make their living and name on the mat whether it's wrestling or BJJ.

But at the end of the day most retards want to see a musclar fighter with a limited skill set slug it out. Don't get me wrong, technical striking is a thing of beauty as well. Strikers like CroCop, A. Silva, and Sam Stout are a joy to watch but guys like James Irvin and Houston Alexander are best left on small show mid cards. Let's raise the level of intelligence and appreciate a great fight for a great fight.

[Brown Ninja]

Your right in your examples War but let me ask you these questions....
1. Why was Busta paid peanuts? He was the most talented fighter on the planet at the time. He destroyed Lindland when he was unstoppable. The answer is because he was a mid sized fighter who speaks poor English and would be hard to market. It's a shame more people didn't get to see him when he was in his prime. Instead we got force fed fighters like Mike Kyle and Wes Simms.
2. Lindland did get knockedout fast by Terrel but he got caught. Happens to everyone. Terrel made his name off that fluke fight. Look what Tanner did to him after that. Tanner was a beast in his day but he couldn't have beat Matt on his best day. Lindland was tough to market due to body type and fighting style but he was the man. His only other loss was a fluke to Vitale as well. The man should not have been cut. Look what he did against Page and Fedor. Hell I thought he won the Page fight.
3. Wereum did like bad against Santos but he is top of the food chain no doubt. He has wins against GonzagaX2, and gave Nog all he could handle when Nog was virtually unbeatable. But because he lacks the persona of some like Kongo we don't get to see the best in the world fight but rather some muscle bound 1/2 ass striker who will never touch a top tier heavyweight. Justin McCully and Hardonk have jobs in the UFC but not Wereum???

The UFC is becoming a victim of it's own hype. Brings a tear to my eye.....

[stangmatt06]

just watch the WWF or WWE if you want a "show"

=)

[Brown Ninja]

exactly^^^. I'll take a Tyson Griffen or Florian fight anyday over a couple of slobs throwing sloppy hooks.

[WARMachine]

Your right in your examples War but let me ask you these questions....
1. Why was Busta paid peanuts? He was the most talented fighter on the planet at the time. He destroyed Lindland when he was unstoppable. The answer is because he was a mid sized fighter who speaks poor English and would be hard to market. It's a shame more people didn't get to see him when he was in his prime. Instead we got force fed fighters like Mike Kyle and Wes Simms. (Thats how it was in those days. And thats why Busta left for PRIDE. Henceforth, he was stripped of the title and thats when they had a #1 contenders match with Terrel.)
2. Lindland did get knockedout fast by Terrel but he got caught. Happens to everyone. Terrel made his name off that fluke fight. Look what Tanner did to him after that. Tanner was a beast in his day but he couldn't have beat Matt on his best day. Lindland was tough to market due to body type and fighting style but he was the man. His only other loss was a fluke to Vitale as well. The man should not have been cut. Look what he did against Page and Fedor. Hell I thought he won the Page fight. (Must remember, Dave Terrell was prized as the next big thing during that time. Ceaser Gracies prodigy. He was big shit that turned out to be a injury prone B level guy.)


3. Wereum did like bad against Santos but he is top of the food chain no doubt. He has wins against GonzagaX2, and gave Nog all he could handle when Nog was virtually unbeatable. But because he lacks the persona of some like Kongo we don't get to see the best in the world fight but rather some muscle bound 1/2 ass striker who will never touch a top tier heavyweight. Justin McCully and Hardonk have jobs in the UFC but not Wereum???

(Ageed there. I think Werdum is one of the best in the world at HW. I cant for the life of me understand why they would cut him.)

The UFC is becoming a victim of it's own hype. Brings a tear to my eye.....

^ 100% agree with that.

And i also agree that the 'casual' fan is ruining the sport. I mean its great to see more people into it, but honestly, i could go without 75% of the new fans these days.

Just last week, i got a guy in my place. 5'11, 215lbs 20%bf. Tells me he played college football, just got out recently. Now he wants to fight MMA. Has about a year of boxing, no grappling, and no other standup.

These people are kidding themselves. I tell him to keep training here, and ill tell you when youre ready to fight. You know, youre not gonna represent me and the team and go out there and get submitted in 30sec. So now i hear hes training at a gym somewhere else and plans on fighting within the next 4 months.

Idk what to say to stupid people like this. I should just beat the shit outta him and ask him if he still wants to fight...

[Knockout_Power]

This is why half the "fighters" at local events have 6-0 records. They faught against other amateurs with "sick MMA" skillz cause they wear tapout shirts and hit a punching bag 3 times a week. When they go pro, their record goes to 6-10.

We need more fighters like Huerta, only seen one boring fight from him.

[WARMachine]

^ Huerta is a shitty fighter.

Im glad he is done fighting. I believe he has one left on his contract, and then says he will pursue acting.

[Brown Ninja]

agreed with Huerta. Kid has heart and is pretty tough but gets way to much credit. I will give him credit for taking Kenny the distance but I still believe he is overrated.

[Brown Ninja]

Hey War, I got my buddy in a sleeper hold once, am I ready to fight? I know all to well what you mean. It used to be fun to support local shows and watch the sport grow but now days I would rather not. It's a bunch of posturing hacks fighting just so they can tell everyone that they do. Prideless twats.

I think it's disrespectful to the sport to think you can walk in the cage/ring and be succesful without years of training. I never thought I'd say it but I wish the sport would stop growing

[Brown Ninja]

Hey War, I got my buddy in a sleeper hold once, am I ready to fight? I know all to well what you mean. It used to be fun to support local shows and watch the sport grow but now days I would rather not. It's a bunch of posturing hacks fighting just so they can tell everyone that they do. Prideless twats.

I think it's disrespectful to the sport to think you can walk in the cage/ring and be succesful without years of training. I never thought I'd say it but I wish the sport would stop growing

[BgMc31]

^^while I understand your frustration Brown and War, these guys make the sport grow. Because for every 1000 idiots that think he can fight, there is that one diamond in the rough. You see, unlike boxing, there is no amatuer level (unlike golden gloves or olympics) to showcase amatuer fighters. Sure there are D1 wrestlers and great BJJ guys (I don't know if there is a amatuer league for those guys but I think I've heard of a couple), and there are Muay thai guys too, but nothing for MMA. So until something for MMA is developed (properly) you'll continue to get the tapout shirt wearing guys.

Just remember, there has been some great boxers who didn't have much more than street fighting experience that rose through the ranks slowly only to become great (Bernard Hopkins comes to mind).

As far as Huerta is concerned, I think Dana was grooming him to be an Oscar De La Hoya type for MMA. He is good looking, Mexican, and exciting to watch. Too bad he didn't have DLH skillz!!!

[WARMachine]

I know what you mean. As for Brown Ninja, no, i dont think you are ready to fight. lol

I think it's disrespectful to the sport to think you can walk in the cage/ring and be succesful without years of training. I never thought I'd say it but I wish the sport would stop growing

But for this comment here, i disagree. If someone is talented enough to step in there and win fights and are skillful, i have no issues.

My problem is like what KO Power discribed. Guys who start beer leauge fight organizations. Then guys have 15-1 records and fight like shit against real professionals.

Thats what i dont like about the ''Growth'' of the sport.

[Brown Ninja]

the sport must be stopped! Watch golf

[thabeastmaster]

hmmmmm beeeeeer league.....
beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer....... .
i got a guy in a coors light crusher one time, he tapped in a flash....
he was wearing a Tapout shirt....hehehe...i should have put the Genuwine Draft lock on him, but i felt sorry for the guy

[Brown Ninja]

how homoerotic

[amcon]

Im probably going to take a lot of slack for this, but after the last PPV I was wondering if it is right to expect the fighters to put aside their ego's, win/loss records etc to put on a show for the fans.

Normally, I have always believed that fighting is an art and each fighter does what they plan out to do. BUT... since this is now a billion dollar industry, and the fighters make some decent paychecks as a result, I ask the question...

Is it right to expect these fighters to entertain us rather than only focus on not losing, not getting knocked out etc?

Thoughts?

na they just need to do what got them there... fight - best man win