when to take glutamine and creatine, !!??

[n8or]

im on a lean muscle diet, somthing in between a bulk and a cut. so im wondering should i use creatine and glutamine, and should i use them together, like make a cocktail of it?? anyone?
i heard somthing bout it so im just askin?

tnx

[n8or]

anyone

[niXon)(]

wrong forum

but 5g's b4 WO creatine, 5 after, same with the glutamine.

glutamine has been proven insuficient to helping build muscle. what kind of creatine is it? mono will bloat you

[zx2onice]

Where did you here of glutamine being crap for building muscle? I've only heard great things for it.

[Pump_30]

NEVER EVER mix Creatine with Glut.....they compete for the same receptors....

I love Glut......take it on an empty stomach.....

[co2boi]

Glutamine isn't meant to "build muscle" it's to help against catabolism, which indirectly helps build muscle, or at least maintain it. Like Pump said, don't take them together and take glut on an empty stomach 1-3 times a day.

[niXon)(]

Glutamine - Frequently Asked Questions

What Is Glutamine?
Glutamine is a neutral, genetically coded Amino Acid and is the most common naturally occurring amino acid found in muscle tissue. Over 61% of skeletal muscle tissue is Glutamine. Glutamine is not an essential amino acid as it is a derivative of Glutamic acid which can be synthesized from the amino acids arginine, ornithine and proline.

What does Glutamine do?
Glutamine's has a unique structure consisting of 19% nitrogen which makes it the primary transporter of nitrogen into the muscle cell. It is responsible for 35% of the nitrogen that reaches the muscle cells where it is synthesized for growth. Glutamine is widely used to maintain good brain functioning, it improves mental alertness, clarity of thinking and mood.

What are the Benefits of L-Glutamine Supplementation?
Many research studies have shown that supplementation with L-Glutamine can achieve the following:

Increased Protein Synthesis: (Muscle Building) - Glutamine has been clearly linked to increased protein synthesis. It spares the muscle tissue being catabolized (see below) in order to provide glutamine for other cells in the body, therefore allowing the muscle tissue to use glutamine to synthesize new protein tissue.
Decreased Catabolism (The Breakdown Of Muscle Tissue) Catabolism occurs when Glutamine leaves the muscle causing the cells discharge water and become dehydrated. L-Glutamine supplementation ensures that high levels of Glutamine are maintained within the cells meaning no discharge of water or Catabolism.
Prevent Glutamine depletion in muscles after workouts. Under periods of stress, including hard and intensive workouts, your body may not be able to make all of the Glutamine that it requires. Studies have shown that supplementing with L-glutamine is effective in the replacement of these declining levels.
Elevate Growth Hormone levels. It has been proven that L-Glutamine supplementation can have a positive effect on growth hormone levels. A recent study has showed that a small 2 gram oral dose of L-Glutamine caused an increase in growth hormone levels by over 430%.
May support our immune system. Some studies have also shown that L-Glutamine may serve to boost our immune system.
Why Should I Consider L-Glutamine Supplementation?
Researchers are suggesting that Glutamine is the most important amino acid to the bodybuilder. It provides a component in muscle metabolism and cellular support not shared by any other single amino acid, making the benefits of L-Glutamine supplementation a realistic venture.
Note: L-Glutamine has been proven to promote weight gain and body cell mass in people with AIDS and other muscle wasting diseases.

How Much L-Glutamine Should I Supplement With?
The suggested amount for L-Glutamine supplementation is between 8-20 grams per day depending on your dietary intake and intensity of exercise. Many experts recommend that this be split into doses of between 4 and 6 grams for the most effective use. Before buying an L-Glutamine supplement, be sure to check out the L-Glutamine levels in your current Protein Supplement as some companies have begun adding effective amounts of L-Gutamine per serving. Most Protein Supplements already contain around 2 grams of L-Glutamine. Are There Any Side Effects To L-Glutamine Supplementation? No. There are no known side effects to supplementing with L-Glutamine.
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06-05-2005, 01:58 PM #2
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The REMAINING is from BROOKLYNJUICE:
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06-05-2005, 01:58 PM #3
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I tend to go with works in terms of results. So, if you notice a difference between using and not using, then for you, Im all for it. IMO boatloading protein in far more cost effective then glutamine supplementation.

BTW, Im noticed increased *fuller* muscles while high dosing Taurine. Taurine is one of the most underrated free aminos out there for BBing. It can be had by the kilo (no, not crapposports) for under 20 bucks.

I've gotten my dosing up to 20 grams a day and with nothing but postive effect. 8-12 grams is a good starter (as per Animal).
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06-05-2005, 01:58 PM #4
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Ripped from Animals board:

"Since taurine also affects the hypothalamus to help regulate body temperature, a higher dose can decrease your temperature & give chilliness, so be aware of that.

Taurine also plays a role in memory & increases the level of a memory neurotransmitter, acetylcholine, in the brain (in animal studies).


And here for your High Bp and fatness!

CARDIOVASCULAR: Taurine is the most abundant amino acid in the heart, a particularly electrically excitable tissue, as are the brain & eye. Since taurine participates in electrical stabilization of the cell membranes & the normal regulation of nerve-muscle interaction, it is useful in heart irregularities & mitral valve prolapse, acting similarly to a calcium channel blocker (a class of drugs used in CV Disease) Taurine also helps control high blood pressure & is useful in congestive heart failure.

DIABETES: Taurine affects carbohydrate metabolism. It potentiates the effect of insulin , enhances glucose utilization & glycogen (stored glucose) synthesis.

FAT METABOLISM: Taurine reduces cholesterol by forming bile acids which are the end products of cholesterol breakdown & are the only route for eliminating cholesterol from the body. This action requires a functioning gall bladder. Taurine has an inhibitory effect on the formation of cholesterol gall stones. It is required for efficient fat absorption & solubilization. It is helpful in states of fat malabsorption such as with cystic fibrosis & other pancreatic deficiency syndromes"
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06-05-2005, 01:59 PM #5
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Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.

Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.





The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance

Antonio J, Sanders MS, Kalman D, Woodgate D, Street C.

Sports Science Laboratory, University of Delaware, Newark, Delaware 19716, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine if high-dose glutamine ingestion affected weightlifting performance. In a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study, 6 resistance-trained men (mean +/- SE: age, 21.5 +/- 0.3 years; weight, 76.5 +/- 2.8 kg(-1)) performed weightlifting exercises after the ingestion of glutamine or glycine (0.3 g x kg(-1)) mixed with calorie-free fruit juice or placebo (calorie-free fruit juice only). Each subject underwent each of the 3 treatments in a randomized order. One hour after ingestion, subjects performed 4 total sets of exercise to momentary muscular failure (2 sets of leg presses at 200% of body weight, 2 sets of bench presses at 100% of body weight). There were no differences in the average number of maximal repetitions performed in the leg press or bench press exercises among the 3 groups. These data indicate that the short-term ingestion of glutamine does not enhance weightlifting performance in resistance-trained men.






The effect of free glutamine and peptide ingestion on the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis in man.

van Hall G, Saris WH, van de Schoor PA, Wagenmakers AJ.

Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, The Netherlands. [email protected]

The present study investigated previous claims that ingestion of glutamine and of protein-carbohydrate mixtures may increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis following intense exercise. Eight trained subjects were studied during 3 h of recovery while consuming one of four drinks in random order. Drinks were ingested in three 500 ml boluses, immediately after exercise and then after 1 and 2 h of recovery. Each bolus of the control drink contained 0.8 g x kg(-1) body weight of glucose. The other drinks contained the same amount of glucose and 0.3 g x kg(-1) body weight of 1) glutamine, 2) a wheat hydrolysate (26% glutamine) and 3) a whey hydrolysate (6.6% glutamine). Plasma glutamine, decreased by approximately 20% during recovery with ingestion of the control drink, no changes with ingestion of the protein hydrolysates drinks, and a 2-fold increase with ingestion of the free glutamine drinks. The rate of glycogen resynthesis was not significantly different in the four tests: 28 +/- 5, 26 +/- 6, 33 +/- 4, and 34 +/- 3 mmol glucosyl units x kg(-1) dry weight muscle x h(-1) for the control, glutamine, wheat- and whey hydrolysate ingestion, respectively. It is concluded that ingestion of a glutamine/carbohydrate mixture does not increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis in muscle. Glycogen resynthesis rates were higher, although not statistically significant, after ingestion of the drink containing the wheat (21 +/- 8%) and whey protein hydrolysate (20 +/- 6%) compared to ingestion of the control and free glutamine drinks, implying that further research is needed on the potential protein effect.






Exercise-induced immunodepression- plasma glutamine is not the link.

Hiscock N, Pedersen BK.

Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre and Department of Infectious Diseases, Rigshospitalet, University of Copenhagen, DK-2100 Copenhagen, Denmark.

The amino acid glutamine is known to be important for the function of some immune cells in vitro. It has been proposed that the decrease in plasma glutamine concentration in relation to catabolic conditions, including prolonged, exhaustive exercise, results in a lack of glutamine for these cells and may be responsible for the transient immunodepression commonly observed after acute, exhaustive exercise. It has been unclear, however, whether the magnitude of the observed decrease in plasma glutamine concentration would be great enough to compromise the function of immune cells. In fact, intracellular glutamine concentration may not be compromised when plasma levels are decreased postexercise. In addition, a number of recent intervention studies with glutamine feeding demonstrate that, although the plasma concentration of glutamine is kept constant during and after acute, strenuous exercise, glutamine supplementation does not abolish the postexercise decrease in in vitro cellular immunity, including low lymphocyte number, impaired lymphocyte proliferation, impaired natural killer and lymphokine-activated killer cell activity, as well as low production rate and concentration of salivary IgA. It is concluded that, although the glutamine hypothesis may explain immunodepression related to other stressful conditions such as trauma and burn, plasma glutamine concentration is not likely to play a mechanistic role in exercise-induced immunodepression
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Posted by Future

[niXon)(]

By Dr. John M Berardi, Ph.D.

Should I Spend my Hard-Earned Money on Glutamine or Hookers?

Q: In a recent T-mag article, glutamine was described as pretty much worthless if you're already taking care of protein and post-workout protein/carb/amino needs. What's your opinion? Is glutamine overrated?

A: Well, for starters, glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid…
Aww hell; I'm not going start my response off with the standard opening line that just about everyone uses to indirectly affix grandiose importance to this amino acid! Sure, it's conditionally essential (meaning that although it's not absolutely necessary in the diet, our requirements for glutamine can exceed our production of it in certain conditions).

Yes, it makes up 2/3 of the muscle's free amino acid pool (which is a pretty damn small part of the muscle's total amino acid content anyway) and sure, glutamine has been shown to have some pretty amazing benefits in wasting conditions, postoperative patients, and in TPN (total parenteral nutrition).

But as bodybuilding/fitness writers, it's about time we put aside this useless trivia and discuss the utility of glutamine supplementation for athletes, weight lifters, etc. A few years ago there were no data and therefore we could speculate all we wanted about the theoretical potential of glutamine supplementation. But nowadays, we've got the data and the data demonstrate that our theories may have been wrong.

To this end, I applaud my good friend David Barr on his excellent articles (Glutamine — Destroying the Dogma Part I and Part II) that revealed that despite all the conjecture about how glutamine supplementation may help increase muscle mass, muscle strength, and prevent overtraining, each and every research investigation examining the effects of glutamine supplementation on exercise performance, body composition, and protein degradation has shown that it offers no benefit. Because of the great job that Dave did in his literature review, I certainly don't have to provide a reference list — they're all right there at the end of his article.

To reiterate a few of the key points that Dave brought up in his article and that I brought up at the SWIS seminar:

• A high protein diet provides a big whack of glutamine as it is. In fact, if you follow standard bodybuilding protein recommendations, about 10% of your total dietary protein intake is composed of glutamine (milk proteins are composed of somewhere between 3 — 10% glutamine while meat is composed of about 15% glutamine). This means that a high protein diet (400g/day) already provides me with about 40g of glutamine.

• While the theorists still cling to the idea that since glutamine helps clinical stress, it might help with exercise stress, it’s important to note that exercise stress has got nothin’ on surgery, cancer, sepsis, burns, etc. For example, when compared with downhill running or weight lifting, urinary nitrogen loss is 15x (1400%) greater in minor surgery, 25x (2400%) greater in major surgery, and 33x (3200%) greater in sepsis. When it comes to the immune response, it’s about 9x (800%) greater with surgery. When it comes to metabolic increase, it’s 7x (600%) greater with burn injury, and when it comes to creatine kinase release; it’s about 2x (100%) greater with surgery. As I said, exercise has got nothin’ on real, clinical stress. It’s like trying to compare the damage inflicted by a peashooter and that inflicted by a rocket launcher.

• The major studies examining glutamine supplementation in otherwise healthy weightlifters have shown no effect. In the study by Candow et al (2001), 0.9g of supplemental glutamine/kg/day had no impact on muscle performance, body composition, and protein degradation. Folks, that's 90g per day for some lifters.

• The majority of the studies using glutamine supplementation in endurance athletes have shown little to no measurable benefit on performance or immune function.

• And with respect to glycogen replenishment in endurance athletes, it's interesting to note that the first study that looked at glycogen resynthesis using glutamine missed a couple of things. Basically, the study showed that after a few glycogen depleting hours of cycling at a high percentage of VO2 max interspersed with very intense cycle sprints that were supramaximal, a drink containing 8g of glutamine replenished glycogen to the same extent as a drink containing 61g of carbohydrate.

The problem was that during the recovery period, a constant IV infusion of labeled glucose was given (i.e., a little bit of glucose was given to both groups by IV infusion). While this isn't too big of a deal on its own since the infusion only provided a couple of grams of glucose, the other problem is that during glycogen depleting exercise, a lot of alanine, lactate, and other gluconeogenic precursors are released from the muscle.

What this means is that there's a good amount of glucose that will be formed after such exercise, glucose that will be made in the liver from the gluconeogenic precursors and that will travel to the muscle to replenish glycogen. Therefore, without a placebo group that receives no calories, carbohydrates, or glutamine, we have no idea of knowing whether or not the placebo would have generated the same amount of glycogen replenishment as the glutamine group or the glutamine plus carbohydrate group. To say it another way, perhaps there's a normal glycogen replenishment curve that was unaffected by any of the treatments.

• And finally, with respect to the claims that glutamine might increase cell swelling/volume (something I once believed was a reality), we decided to test this theory out in our lab using multifrequency bioelectric impedance analysis as well as magnetic resonance spectroscopy. The pilot data that's kicking around has demonstrated that glutamine supplementation has no effect on total body water, intracellular fluid volumes, or extracellular fluid volumes (as measured by mBIA) and has no effect on muscle volume (as measured by nMRS).


Therefore, at the present time, I think it's safe to conclude that glutamine supplementation probably offers little to no benefit with respect to athletic performance or body composition when given to well-fed, healthy athletes. But I don't want to totally burst anyone's little glutamine bubble. After all, I'm not saying that glutamine supplementation is totally worthless. As Dave Barr pointed out in his article, there may be some circumstances in which glutamine supplementation is of benefit. Here are some of them:

• Steroid users who are improperly coming off a cycle might need some. When coming off a steroid cycle, blood Testosterone concentrations are dismally low while cortisol levels become quite elevated. If said steroid user continues training (which he/she must to try to preserve their muscle mass), the catabolic stimulation might be significant. It still doesn't approach clinical catabolism but it may just become bad enough that some extra glutamine might help. This is just a guess, however.

• When trying to get really lean, many bodybuilders restrict energy intake and increase exercise volume and might need some glutamine. This type of energy deficit may signal the body to begin using protein as an energy source, cutting into valuable muscle resources. In addition this catabolic stimulus will be compounded by the exercise stress and may lead to excess catabolism. Perhaps glutamine may help out in these scenarios. Again, a guess.

• In elite endurance athletes training intensely 2 or 3 times in a given day, I might prescribe some. Although I rarely recommend glutamine to my clients, my elite cross country skiers are encouraged to take it mostly during their trips to altitude camp and for glacier training. These athletes train 2-3 times per day for a week or two at a time while living in tents on a glacier at altitude. Add on the fact that nutrition on such excursions is bare bones, so that's some stress that glutamine might help with.

• When injured and trying to prevent wasting or facilitate wound/soft tissue injury, take some. Williams et al (2002) demonstrated that daily supplementation with 3g of HMB, 14g of glutamine, and 14g of arginine can lead to increased wound healing.


So when all is said and done, I pretty much agree with Dave's appraisal of the value of glutamine supplementation for well-fed weightlifters and bodybuilders. Considering how much protein most bodybuilders consume, additional glutamine supplementation are probably worthless. However, like any other question, there isn't a black and white answer. There do remain a few situations, as discussed above, that glutamine might be a supplement to consider. Personally, I only prescribe it to my skiers during altitude and glacier training, to steroid users coming "off," to bodybuilders during the last few weeks of competition dieting, and to people who are injured and trying hard to recover. And, of course, to those with legitimate wasting conditions. If you don't fall into any of these categories, spend your money on more groceries.
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[niXon)(]

Glutamine isn't meant to "build muscle" it's to help against catabolism, which indirectly helps build muscle, or at least maintain it. Like Pump said, don't take them together and take glut on an empty stomach 1-3 times a day.

It is meant to help build muscle by maintaining it, that's the theory behind it.

[Gaucho77]

Don't take glut/or creat immiediately pwo because you should be taking in a dex/whey shake then, and those compete for bonding also.
Unless you have some diet that works without a pwo shake