Peak vs stable AA levels

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-26-2006, 01:37 PM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

Regulation of muscle protein by amino acids.

Wolfe RR.

University of Texas Medical Branch and Shriners Burns Hospital, Department of Surgery, Galveston 77550, USA. [email protected]

Amino acid availability is a potent regulator of muscle protein synthesis (MPS). We have performed a series of studies using stable isotope methodology and the arteriovenous balance approach to quantify many aspects of the response of MPS, breakdown, and the balance between synthesis and breakdown to changes in the availability of amino acids. A constant intake of amino acids stimulates MPS in a dose-dependent manner until concentrations are approximately doubled, after which further increases in concentration are ineffective. MPS rises more rapidly after bolus ingestion to a peak rate of MPS higher than during constant intake, but the response is transient. A reduction in amino acid availability below basal levels inhibits MPS. Ingestion of nonessential amino acids is not needed to stimulate MPS. When carbohydrate alone is ingested there is minimal effect on MPS, but there is an interactive effect with amino acid ingestion, meaning the response to amino acids plus glucose is more than the sum of their individual effects. Finally, acute anabolic responses in net MPS correspond quantitatively to differences in 24-h net muscle balances

The bolded part seems to indicate that peaking amino acid levels fairly frequently would be better for protein synthesis than having constant levels of amino acids. Thoughs?? The entire study is free to read at this adress

Regulation of Muscle Protein by Amino Acids
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/10/3219S

Bolus versus constant infusion
The response of MPS to a bolus of amino acids is quite different from the response to a constant infusion. There is a rapid increase in MPS in conjunction with the rise in EAA concentration, and an equally rapid fall as the EAA concentrations begin to decrease (Fig. 3 ). However, the rate of MPS returned to the basal value well before the concentration fell to the basal level. In fact, in the example shown in Figure 3 , after ingestion of 15 g of EAA, net balance (as well as the rate of MPS) had returned to the basal rate when the plasma concentration was still more than double the basal value. In contrast, when plasma concentrations were increased to a steady-state concentration for 3 h at a value twice above the basal value, the maximal stimulation of MPS was achieved (17 ). Furthermore, whereas the response to a bolus is transient, the peak response may be 6- to 10-fold the basal value. Nonetheless, because of the transient nature of the response, the total synthetic response (area under curve of synthesis vs. time) was less than when similar doses of amino acids were taken in the constant intake mode as opposed to the bolus ingestion (Fig. 4 ). Thus, different mechanisms appear to be operative in response to the mode of ingestion. Clarification of these mechanisms could lead to amplifying the response to a given amount of intake.

The bolded and red shows though that a peak is not enough to sustain muscle synthesis for a longer period. But maby a peak followed by sustained levels are superior to only sustained levels?

That would mean that drinking a whey shake before a solid meal for instance would be more anabolic than just eating the meal.
Thoughs?

**novastepp** · 06-26-2006, 03:44 PM

hmm so is what ur saying that due to the rapid digestion of the whey and its aminos, that it would trigger a peak in aminos in the blood and then have a solid meal and it would be a slower digestion and dispersement of aminos, then a steady amount supplemented after that would prove to be more anabolic /beneficial...

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-26-2006, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by novastepp

hmm so is what ur saying that due to the rapid digestion of the whey and its aminos, that it would trigger a peak in aminos in the blood and then have a solid meal and it would be a slower digestion and dispersement of aminos, then a steady amount supplemented after that would prove to be more anabolic/beneficial...

Yupp. Not sure if that idea has any basis yet but it seems like a good idea from reading that particular study

The peak in aminoacid levels from the whey would give that peak in protein synthesis and the following load of slow digesting proteins would give the extended elevation of protein synthesis.

But there is always the chanse that the effect is to small to be noticable in real life....

Whats interesting though is that I always do that while cutting to keep my protein intake high without eating to much meat(meat=to expensive for me) and I usualy se my best strenght gains while cutting...

**novastepp** · 06-26-2006, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by johan

Yupp. Not sure if that idea has any basis yet but it seems like a good idea from reading that particular study

The peak in aminoacid levels from the whey would give that peak in protein synthesis and the following load of slow digesting proteins would give the extended elevation of protein synthesis.

But there is always the chanse that the effect is to small to be noticable in real life....

Whats interesting though is that I always do that while cutting to keep my protein intake high without eating to much meat(meat=to expensive for me) and I usualy se my best strenght gains while cutting...

that is interesting. myself on my current cut that i am finishing have kept all my strength and gained in some areas and slightly lost in others but maintained size and strength as a whole and with big compound movements. and i always use aminos now (didn't in the past) and i think that might be playing a major role in my success. this is my first legit cutter and it was a very good one. now i know i can all out bulk and go until i meet a threshhold where my body may need to stop bulking for a while... and i now know i can cut the fat off quickly and (most importantly) effectively.

in any case, it would maybe seem that in my case even in a large caloric dificiency (at first anyway) that i kept my strength gains when i maybe should have lost some strength. i did lose some size, just a little in certain places, in others not...but with maintaining strength i suppose that might mean i gained some? anyway, thanks man and good read i'll finish it after i get some groceries

**timtim** · 06-26-2006, 07:24 PM

i do this once daily with turkey 4 ounces turkey burger, 1 scoop whey, and 2 teaspoon olive oil. this is my pre-cardio meal. seems to be working well, cant really tell.

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-27-2006, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by novastepp

that is interesting. myself on my current cut that i am finishing have kept all my strength and gained in some areas and slightly lost in others but maintained size and strength as a whole and with big compound movements. and i always use aminos now (didn't in the past) and i think that might be playing a major role in my success. this is my first legit cutter and it was a very good one. now i know i can all out bulk and go until i meet a threshhold where my body may need to stop bulking for a while... and i now know i can cut the fat off quickly and (most importantly) effectively.

in any case, it would maybe seem that in my case even in a large caloric dificiency (at first anyway) that i kept my strength gains when i maybe should have lost some strength. i did lose some size, just a little in certain places, in others not...but with maintaining strength i suppose that might mean i gained some? anyway, thanks man and good read i'll finish it after i get some groceries

If you have maintained strenght but dropped weight you probably have gained some LBM

Especialy if you have maintained it in the squat, bench and dead since bodyweight is fairly important in those lifts.

Gonna have to sit down and read your cutting journal

**DNoMac** · 06-26-2006, 09:38 PM

How long before the solid meal do you think you'd have to ingest the EAA's to peak plasma concentration levels?

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-27-2006, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by DNoMac

How long before the solid meal do you think you'd have to ingest the EAA's to peak plasma concentration levels?

To be honest Im not sure. 20-30 minutes should be a good time I think.

**wolfstriked** · 06-27-2006, 02:47 PM

Super interesting!!If this really makes a difference then all meals should start with a whey shake.Flood the sytem.

So next question is what is the perfect ratio of whey to the slow digesting protein per meal.

1/1ratio or 2/1 etc...

Say you eat 40 gms protein per meal.Then mix 20 gms whey with 20gms casein or solid protein.