Is Dextrose/Maltodextrin OK for those looking to cut?

**sobenick** · 06-27-2006, 02:08 AM

I read Rambo's sticky on Cutting and found it very insightful. I do have a question... It seems that there are a ton of calories in adding Dextrose or Maltodextrin into my PWO shake. Does this make sense for someone like me who is looking to cut down from 15% BF to 8%? Idf so, what is the right amount to take?

I am currently consuming about 1900 - 2300 calories a day doing 45 min of cardio 4-5 days a week and lifting 3 days.

Your help is appreciated.

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-27-2006, 06:21 AM

You can succesfully cut with dextrose and malto in the pwo yeah

You need to tweak the diet during the rest of the day to make room for those kcal from the dex offcourse.

**ascendant** · 06-27-2006, 02:23 PM

i believe rambo already stated this, but breakfast and PWO is when you should take in the majority of your carbs for the day. as far as adding "a ton" of calories for your PWO, why does it have to be that much? what are the macros of your PWO? you might be using too much.

as far as how much you'd need, between 40-60g of carbs should suffice when cutting for PWO. again, other than your breakfast, this should be the highest carb-intake meals of your day.

as far as 1900-2300, that seems a little low for someone your size. IMO, you shouldn't be going below 2200-2400 to prevent excessive muscle catabolism from your calories being too low. also, you may want to consider carb loading every 4th day to keep your metabolism up. do a thread search and you can find out more about carb loading/depletion.

also might want to get yourself a set of bodyfat calipers. by checking your bf% each week while cutting up, you can make sure that what you're losing is fat and not muscle. if you start losing noticeable amounts of muscle along with the fat, you gotta bring up the calories a bit.

**novastepp** · 06-27-2006, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by ascendant

i believe rambo already stated this, but breakfast and PWO is when you should take in the majority of your carbs for the day. as far as adding "a ton" of calories for your PWO, why does it have to be that much? what are the macros of your PWO? you might be using too much.

as far as how much you'd need, between 40-60g of carbs should suffice when cutting for PWO. again, other than your breakfast, this should be the highest carb-intake meals of your day.

as far as 1900-2300, that seems a little low for someone your size. IMO, you shouldn't be going below 2200-2400 to prevent excessive muscle catabolism from your calories being too low. also, you may want to consider carb loading every 4th day to keep your metabolism up. do a thread search and you can find out more about carb loading/depletion.

also might want to get yourself a set of bodyfat calipers. by checking your bf% each week while cutting up, you can make sure that what you're losing is fat and not muscle. if you start losing noticeable amounts of muscle along with the fat, you gotta bring up the calories a bit.

so why do you recommend using carbs in a morning meal and PWO only?

**IBdmfkr** · 06-27-2006, 05:46 PM

I'm cutting now and on my low days (200carbs) I keep my carbs as follows w/1cup veg with every meal as well:
am: 50
Meal2: 25
Preworkout: 25
PWO: 75
PPWO: 25

Seems to be working well.

**novastepp** · 06-27-2006, 05:51 PM

yeah i use carbs all day long, works wonders for both bulking and cutting IMO.

**ascendant** · 06-27-2006, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by novastepp

so why do you recommend using carbs in a morning meal and PWO only?

well, of course those won't be the only meals where you'll take in carbs, but they should be the bulk of the carbs you take in during the day when cutting.

in the morning, you need those carbs to reduce cortisol levels from having not eaten throughout the night. additionally, at that point blood sugars and muscle glycogen will be fairly low as well, so most of the carbs you take in at that point in the morning will just be soaked up by the muscles to replenish those depleted stores.

as far as PWO, i think that's pretty self-explanatory. once again, blood sugars and muscle glycogen stores are depleted from the workout, hence the carbs will be sucked up by the muscles, greatly reducing the chances of any being stored as bodyfat.

you want to take advantage of the points where the carbs will primarily be used to replenish. the main intention is to keep cortisol to a minimum, thereby reducing muscle breakdown for energy while at the same time minimizing risk of carbs being stored, which during those times, seems to be the best choice.

**ascendant** · 06-27-2006, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by IBdmfkr

I'm cutting now and on my low days (200carbs) I keep my carbs as follows w/1cup veg with every meal as well:
am: 50
Meal2: 25
Preworkout: 25
PWO: 75
PPWO: 25

Seems to be working well.

see, this right here is what i'm talking about. his breakfast and PWO carbs are higher. i personally split my meals into 7 and make the carb spread between the breakfast and PWO in comparison to my other meals a little larger, but whatever works for you works for you.

**novastepp** · 06-27-2006, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by ascendant

well, of course those won't be the only meals where you'll take in carbs, but they should be the bulk of the carbs you take in during the day when cutting.

in the morning, you need those carbs to reduce cortisol levels from having not eaten throughout the night. additionally, at that point blood sugars and muscle glycogen will be fairly low as well, so most of the carbs you take in at that point in the morning will just be soaked up by the muscles to replenish those depleted stores.

as far as PWO, i think that's pretty self-explanatory. once again, blood sugars and muscle glycogen stores are depleted from the workout, hence the carbs will be sucked up by the muscles, greatly reducing the chances of any being stored as bodyfat.

you want to take advantage of the points where the carbs will primarily be used to replenish. the main intention is to keep cortisol to a minimum, thereby reducing muscle breakdown for energy while at the same time minimizing risk of carbs being stored, which during those times, seems to be the best choice.

i see what ur sayin bro. if you are going to use carbs in your diet...DEFINATELY use them here. and i guess i just assumed u were saying to only use them there. sorry to assume man.

**ascendant** · 06-27-2006, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by novastepp

i see what ur sayin bro. if you are going to use carbs in your diet...DEFINATELY use them here. and i guess i just assumed u were saying to only use them there. sorry to assume man.

yea, you got it. don't worry about assuming bro. you're just looking out for the board members and making sure the info is correct. it's all good.

**sobenick** · 06-29-2006, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by ascendant

as far as how much you'd need, between 40-60g of carbs should suffice when cutting for PWO. again, other than your breakfast, this should be the highest carb-intake meals of your day.

Is there a significant advantage to using Dextrose or Maltodextrin as opposed to say fruit juice?

**ascendant** · 06-30-2006, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by sobenick

Is there a significant advantage to using Dextrose or Maltodextrin as opposed to say fruit juice?

well, the best bet is to use a combination of both dextrose and maltodextrin. here's a brief excerpt of an explanation behind why this is a better choice as opposed to just using one:

"...The next question is, why not just use maltodextrin, and eliminate dextrose since it is so proficient? Ah, once again it is not that simple. Shi. X et al. in an outstanding study, tested the digestive effects of two substrates (any substance acted upon by an enzyme) as opposed to only one substrate in the small intestine. What they found was quite fascinating. The solution containing two substrates stimulated the activation of more transport mechanisms in the intestinal lumen, than did its singular counterpart. Therefore, more carbohydrates were transported out of the small intestine (absorbed into the blood), which additionally aided a greater absorption rate of water into the blood stream (by osmosis). Thus, the higher activation rate of transport mechanisms, even with higher osmolarity facilitated faster energy uptake and hydration..."

as far as using fruit juice, it just doesn't get absorbed as fast, efficiently, or in as high amounts as the dextrose/maltodextrin combo. in case you don't already know, you want your PWO carbs to be absorbed as quickly as possible to replenish lost glucose/glycogen stores in your body as well as deterring catabolism.

fruit juice is mostly fructose, which our bodies must break down into glucose first. it's still digested fairly quickly, but the dextrose/maltodextrin combo is the best bet from most studies i've read.

**novastepp** · 06-30-2006, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by ascendant

well, the best bet is to use a combination of both dextrose and maltodextrin. here's a brief excerpt of an explanation behind why this is a better choice as opposed to just using one:

"...The next question is, why not just use maltodextrin, and eliminate dextrose since it is so proficient? Ah, once again it is not that simple. Shi. X et al. in an outstanding study, tested the digestive effects of two substrates (any substance acted upon by an enzyme) as opposed to only one substrate in the small intestine. What they found was quite fascinating. The solution containing two substrates stimulated the activation of more transport mechanisms in the intestinal lumen, than did its singular counterpart. Therefore, more carbohydrates were transported out of the small intestine (absorbed into the blood), which additionally aided a greater absorption rate of water into the blood stream (by osmosis). Thus, the higher activation rate of transport mechanisms, even with higher osmolarity facilitated faster energy uptake and hydration..."

as far as using fruit juice, it just doesn't get absorbed as fast, efficiently, or in as high amounts as the dextrose/maltodextrin combo. in case you don't already know, you want your PWO carbs to be absorbed as quickly as possible to replenish lost glucose/glycogen stores in your body as well as deterring catabolism.

fruit juice is mostly fructose, which our bodies must break down into glucose first. it's still digested fairly quickly, but the dextrose/maltodextrin combo is the best bet from most studies i've read.

i know that glycogen replenishment took days to accomplish completely. and that PWO simple carbs would only be useful in blunting cortisol and allwoing protein synthesis to occur easier. anyone know if this is the case?

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-30-2006, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by novastepp

i know that glycogen replenishment took days to accomplish completely. and that PWO simple carbs would only be useful in blunting cortisol and allwoing protein synthesis to occur easier. anyone know if this is the case?

you dont need high gi carbs to blunt cortisol. Low gi carbs works just as good. You only need a tiny bit of insulin to do the trick and the low gi carbs release enough insulin.

High GI carbs has no extra benificial effect on protein synthesis pwo.

**novastepp** · 06-30-2006, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by johan

you dont need high gi carbs to blunt cortisol. Low gi carbs works just as good. You only need a tiny bit of insulin to do the trick and the low gi carbs release enough insulin.

High GI carbs has no extra benificial effect on protein synthesis pwo.

booyaah, i appreciate it Johan

how about a little ownage for yaass...

**IBdmfkr** · 06-30-2006, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by johan

you dont need high gi carbs to blunt cortisol. Low gi carbs works just as good. You only need a tiny bit of insulin to do the trick and the low gi carbs release enough insulin.

High GI carbs has no extra benificial effect on protein synthesis pwo.

Agreed, I've switched to Oats PWO and don't feel nearly as exhausted 1hr later like when using Dextrose.

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-30-2006, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by novastepp

booyaah, i appreciate it Johan

how about a little ownage for yaass...

depends on who owns who

**Giants11** · 06-30-2006, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by IBdmfkr

Agreed, I've switched to Oats PWO and don't feel nearly as exhausted 1hr later like when using Dextrose.

Another one takes the plunge

**IBdmfkr** · 06-30-2006, 02:57 PM

No doubt, been trying a lot of new things lately and going back to the basics as Pinn mentioned along with Yourself giantz.. Both of you have always given great info and I've been pleased when I chose to switch things up a bit.

**TADOLFI** · 06-30-2006, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by IBdmfkr

Agreed, I've switched to Oats PWO and don't feel nearly as exhausted 1hr later like when using Dextrose.

Now I know why I feel like I'm "crashing" afterward.
I'll have to implement this to see if it helps me.

Thanks for the pointer Johan!

**IBdmfkr** · 06-30-2006, 04:54 PM

Give us some feedback in a week or two on this thread if you don't mind..
Like to hear other ppl experiences.

**sobenick** · 06-30-2006, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by ascendant

as far as how much you'd need, between 40-60g of carbs should suffice when cutting for PWO. again, other than your breakfast, this should be the highest carb-intake meals of your day.

I am also taking R-ALA with my carbs. Should I also take it with the PWO?

**sobenick** · 06-30-2006, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by ascendant

what are the macros of your PWO? you might be using too much.

as far as how much you'd need, between 40-60g of carbs should suffice when cutting for PWO. again, other than your breakfast, this should be the highest carb-intake meals of your day.

I am in a cutting phase and my PWO is just a protein shake. I was adding a fruit to it, but with the Dextrose and Maltodextrin, I will have to cut that out.
How much Dextrose and how much Maltodextrin should I add to my IsoPure ZERO CARB protein mix?

Thanks again!

**CoreyTampa09** · 06-30-2006, 07:56 PM

I use a whole banana half a protein scoop of dex and 1/2 cup of oats to total my 80g carbs PWO.

**novastepp** · 06-30-2006, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Giants11

Another one takes the plunge

haha i haven't used dex since we discussed it sometime last year. and i haven't had the need for an almost immediate nap after my PWO anymore, if anyone wants a personal experience.

**Kärnfysikern** · 07-01-2006, 02:42 AM

I havent noticed any difference at all since dropping dex like uhh almost a year ago.

It sure hasnt hurt my gains because a few weeks ago I hit a new personal record in the bench(something I havent done for 2 years because of lack of focus).

**Daddy Fatsacks** · 07-01-2006, 08:24 AM

the only chance i get to work out during the week is about 6:30pm. By time i get home its around 8:30 - 9:00. I have to get up for work at 4 am, so sleeping time is obviously very precious. So would a malto-dextro combo be good for my pwo, since i'm hitting the sack immediately thereafter??

**IBdmfkr** · 07-01-2006, 08:45 AM

Why not get a complex carb so you'll stay anabolic throughout the night instead of having your Bloodsugars crash an hour into sleep depriving you of necessary nutrients.

**Daddy Fatsacks** · 07-01-2006, 05:38 PM

so dex is basically not worth buying?

**novastepp** · 07-01-2006, 06:41 PM

not for you IMO.

**kman** · 07-03-2006, 11:33 PM

I love my dex/malto mix, tried it both ways and saw no difference. Never crashed, and it is much easier IMO to pound down a shake. Try both and see what works..

**Alpha-Male** · 07-04-2006, 03:07 PM

wow, you know, you stay away from this place a little too long and things change so drastically...it's funny, cuz i always doubted the realworld benefit/actualized gains from using the dex/malto combo with PWO shakes...i read all the same articles and studies as everyone else, and yes, in the lab and at the cellular level it all made sense, but i always felt it was splitting hairs...i just never had the energy to go toe-to-toe with all the "vets" on here preaching the dex/malto fad...heh

when i'm cutting, for me the goal is to maintain gains, and minimize catabolism (obviously), and my PWO meal isn't always a shake depending on what time of day i get to the gym...and my fat intake is much lower than most meal plans ive seen here, but i follow the same routine every day, 6 and half days a week, and have dropped from 15 to 7% within 6 months or so, drug-free, no problem...moderate, low GI carbs, high protein and minimal fat in every meal (balanced)...works for me juuuuuust fine...

alpha

**IBdmfkr** · 07-04-2006, 05:13 PM

I've switched to that as well and stand by it.

I think the problem is many ppl have not tried both so they are very one-sided on the issue. Again you have to remember a different approach is needed for each individual. So I'd suggest trying both for a given amount of time to conclude which is better for You.