Very interesting note on PWO nutrition

**eatrainrest** · 05-12-2009, 11:53 AM

ok so i along with alot of others wonder when the best time to consume your initial PWO nutrition..within 20-30 minutes

**Iron_Pig** · 05-12-2009, 01:42 PM

I have been told carbs before your workout to help with training Then do you protein after to help with tear down and recovery time fram 30min befor and 30min after.

**MuscleScience** · 05-12-2009, 02:28 PM

The most recent scientific literature states that there is about a 2 hour window post exercise before protein synthesis is negatively effected. To apply that to real world applications my opinion on this is that it depends on your goals at that time. If your bulking up then as soon as your done exercising then its probably a good idea to eat soon after. If your cutting then why not postpone the negative fat burning effect that insulin has after eating and take advantage of the physiologically after-burn post exercise to process a few more fatty acid kcals.

Here is one paper that specifically talks about the 2hr window, it is in elderly weight trained males but deeper in the literature appears to be valid in all age groups. I worked with older adults so most of my papers on file are of course in that age range...LOL

http://jp.physoc.org/content/535/1/3...urcetype=HWCIT

Here are a few more of the papers that talk specifically about PWO nutrition.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...urcetype=HWCIT

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abst...urcetype=HWCIT

**eatrainrest** · 05-12-2009, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

The most recent scientific literature states that there is about a 2 hour window post exercise before protein synthesis is negatively effected. To apply that to real world applications my opinion on this is that it depends on your goals at that time. If your bulking up then as soon as your done exercising then its probably a good idea to eat soon after. If your cutting then why not postpone the negative fat burning effect that insulin has after eating and take advantage of the physiologically after-burn post exercise to process a few more fatty acid kcals.

Here is one paper that specifically talks about the 2hr window, it is in elderly weight trained males but deeper in the literature appears to be valid in all age groups. I worked with older adults so most of my papers on file are of course in that age range...LOL

http://jp.physoc.org/content/535/1/3...urcetype=HWCIT

Here are a few more of the papers that talk specifically about PWO nutrition.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...urcetype=HWCIT

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abst...urcetype=HWCIT

tahts exactly what i was thinking that it is much goal oriented.. very well said and i was going to apply the same concepts

bulking-immediately consume PWO then do low intensity fat burning to get the most out of restoring muscle glycogen
cutting-wait till after my low intensity cardio and then some more, to consume PWO nutrition
.. also thanks for the link your knowledge is always appreciated

**spks99** · 05-15-2009, 08:36 PM

I don't have any specific scientific research to lead you to. But, I was recently visiting the Olympic Training Facility for wrestling and they had the athletes eating IMMEDIATELY after walking off the mat from a session. Ingesting both carbs and protien. I asked about this and without getting a real detailed explanation was told that research shows the faster the better, period. Apparently many of the Olympic training systems have adopted the approach. I figure if our Olympians are doing it, well then that's good enough for me.

**eatrainrest** · 05-15-2009, 08:43 PM

well simple carbs with too HIhg of a GI will restore liver glycogen, not muscle

**C_Bino** · 05-15-2009, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by eatrainrest

well simple carbs with too HIhg of a GI will restore liver glycogen, not muscle

Not true. Your muscle have a MUCH larger capacity for glycogen storage. Even if the type of carb you consume is delivered to the liver first for glycogenolysis the remainder and higher percentage of overall glucose will be taken to muscle for storage.

My view overall is to consume foods IMMEDIATELY after training no matter what. If you are cutting and decide to perform cardio after weights than wait till after the cardio session sure, but then as soon as cardio is over get that food (or shake) in you.

Yes glycogen synthetase remains higher in the blood after exercise for a while but the cortisol-blunting effect from food post exercise should be enough reason for anyone to consume foods as soon as possible after training/cardio is completed.

**mho** · 05-15-2009, 09:27 PM

The goal of taking simple sugars pwo is to increase creatine absorbtion and raise insulin levels quickly, right?

**Phate** · 05-15-2009, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by C_Bino

Not true. Your muscle have a MUCH larger capacity for glycogen storage. Even if the type of carb you consume is delivered to the liver first for glycogenolysis the remainder and higher percentage of overall glucose will be taken to muscle for storage.

My view overall is to consume foods IMMEDIATELY after training no matter what. If you are cutting and decide to perform cardio after weights than wait till after the cardio session sure, but then as soon as cardio is over get that food (or shake) in you.

Yes glycogen synthetase remains higher in the blood after exercise for a while but the cortisol-blunting effect from food post exercise should be enough reason for anyone to consume foods as soon as possible after training/cardio is completed.

i agree with most of this^^^

not all simple sugars(or complex sugars for that matter) are the same though, fructose has a higher affinity for liver glycogen replace than dose glucose, for example, though their muscle glycogen replace is around the same

this is shown by this study

Glycogen Formation in Liver and Muscle from Glucose and Fructose after Extreme Muscular Exhaustion*
Three Figures
Pauline E. Nutter1 and J. R. Murlin

Department of Vital Economics, University of Rochester, New York

Rats, fasted and fatigued by swimming were fed glucose or fructose solutions by stomach tube. After 1-, 2- and 3-hour absorption periods the animals were anaesthetized with amytal, liver and muscle samples obtained, and the unabsorbed residues in the gastrointestinal tract were collected. The amount of sugar absorbed, and the increases in liver and muscle glycogen above the pre-formed control level were determined. Fructose was found to be absorbed at a some-what slower rate than glucose by the fatigued rat, but both sugars showed a falling off in absorption rate as the time was prolonged. To allow for the inequalities in rate of absorption, the new glycogen formation in liver and muscle from glucose and fructose was compared on the basis of the "index of glycogen formation," which takes into account both absorption rates and glycogenesis rates, as well as on the basis of percentage of the total amount of sugar absorbed that is deposited in the total liver and muscle glycogen stores. Glucose was found to be superior to fructose in rebuilding the liver glycogen stores during the early stages, i.e., the first hour, of recovery after exhausting fatigue, the difference being statistically significant. Fructose approaches glucose in activity in the liver in the second hour, and in the third hour is much more effective than glucose. In muscle the average results for new glycogen formation indicate a greater effectiveness for glucose, especially in the first 2 hours, but the difference between the two sugars is not statistically significant at any time.

**C_Bino** · 05-15-2009, 11:22 PM

Ya fructose does refill liver glycogen, thats why I said "even if they type of carb you consume goes to liver first."

But everyone's PWO nutrition will vary. I strongly believe (and practice) whole foods immediately PWO with medium to low GI carbs. I am giving this advice strictly for the bodybuilder who trains once daily.

Studies show glycogen takes 24-48 hours to actually replenish. So I dont see the need to take in high GI carbs in hopes of refilling glycogen...if you arent working our for another 24-48 hours anyway why do you need to refill all of your glycogen as soon as possible (even if it was possible)? Food alone will stop catabolism, sure you can argue about nutrient delivery with insulin . But I have still yet to read a study providing any information to lead me to believe that if I were to have dextrose or maltodextrin etc after workout or a sweet potato of the same carbohydrate quantity, I would gain more muscle using the dextrose.

I would rather not have the hypoglycemia associated with high GI foods, not to mention the supression in immune function from sugars and the general flux in blood sugar which yo-yo's enery levels and hormone secretion.

**Phate** · 05-15-2009, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by C_Bino

Ya fructose does refill liver glycogen, thats why I said "even if they type of carb you consume goes to liver first."

But everyone's PWO nutrition will vary. I strongly believe (and practice) whole foods immediately PWO with medium to low GI carbs. I am giving this advice strictly for the bodybuilder who trains once daily.

Studies show glycogen takes 24-48 hours to actually replenish. So I dont see the need to take in high GI carbs in hopes of refilling glycogen...if you arent working our for another 24-48 hours anyway why do you need to refill all of your glycogen as soon as possible (even if it was possible)? Food alone will stop catabolism, sure you can argue about nutrient delivery with insulin . But I have still yet to read a study providing any information to lead me to believe that if I were to have dextrose or maltodextrin etc after workout or a sweet potato of the same carbohydrate quantity, I would gain more muscle using the dextrose.

I would rather not have the hypoglycemia associated with high GI foods, not to mention the supression in immune function from sugars and the general flux in blood sugar which yo-yo's enery levels and hormone secretion.

this i agree with 100%, i don't mean to sound like i'm saying my opinion is the end all if it's coming across that way

btw, great to have you back in the diet section bino, i missed having my old mentors around

**C_Bino** · 05-16-2009, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Phate

this i agree with 100%, i don't mean to sound like i'm saying my opinion is the end all if it's coming across that way

btw, great to have you back in the diet section bino, i missed having my old mentors around

No not at all, thas why I always say we all got our own way of doing things. Its the best way to learn from eachother rather than jus reading and doing. Gotta have people with experience or who have tried different ways to be able to give real life valuable data.

And Im glad to post back on here again. I will try to come on more often. I actually wasnt able to get on the site for months, wasnt able to even open the site at all

**Phate** · 05-16-2009, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by C_Bino

No not at all, thas why I always say we all got our own way of doing things. Its the best way to learn from eachother rather than jus reading and doing. Gotta have people with experience or who have tried different ways to be able to give real life valuable data.

And Im glad to post back on here again. I will try to come on more often. I actually wasnt able to get on the site for months, wasnt able to even open the site at all

i wonder why? that's just odd, i've had problems around midnight when they reboot the servers but aside from that...

anyway, great to have you back

**Cheylayna1978** · 05-16-2009, 09:52 AM

I don't know who initially stated high gi carbs get stored as liver glycogen, but that is voodoo nutrition at best and is far from the truth/reality. It's FRUIT SUGAR that gets stored in the liver, hence fruit not being an ideal choice of carbs for bb'ers to use pwo as a means of replinishing glycogen stores to begin the recovery process. High GI carbs are what I use in the first LIQUID offering pwo, followed by a solid meal (solid meal can be high gi or low, no difference in recovery) at the same macros/ratios of carbs to protein. Fat is kept at as close
to null as possible.

Those looking for trusted advice, I'd recommend doing this:

Listen to the vets, they are vets for a reason. I almost wrote in a thread yesterday about watching what advice you take as being "gospel", as I see quite a few people shelling out advice that is not only wrong, but would have a person working in the opposite direction of what is desired. There are a lot of mis-informed "experts" on this board, most of whom I have on ignore to weed out the garbage.

Bino and Phate are "in the know". Good job guys.

'Layna

**eatrainrest** · 05-16-2009, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Cheylayna1978

I don't know who initially stated high gi carbs get stored as liver glycogen, but that is voodoo nutrition at best and is far from the truth/reality. It's FRUIT SUGAR that gets stored in the liver, hence fruit not being an ideal choice of carbs for bb'ers to use pwo as a means of replinishing glycogen stores to begin the recovery process. High GI carbs are what I use in the first LIQUID offering pwo, followed by a solid meal (solid meal can be high gi or low, no difference in recovery) at the same macros/ratios of carbs to protein. Fat is kept at as close
to null as possible.

Those looking for trusted advice, I'd recommend doing this:

Listen to the vets, they are vets for a reason. I almost wrote in a thread yesterday about watching what advice you take as being "gospel", as I see quite a few people shelling out advice that is not only wrong, but would have a person working in the opposite direction of what is desired. There are a lot of mis-informed "experts" on this board, most of whom I have on ignore to weed out the garbage.

Bino and Phate are "in the know". Good job guys.

'Layna

mahy i ask what do you think too high GI carb is? i would think of one being TOO high to be a fruit... kidna contradicted yourself here if you were referring to my post about TOO high GI carbs

**Phate** · 05-16-2009, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Cheylayna1978

I don't know who initially stated high gi carbs get stored as liver glycogen, but that is voodoo nutrition at best and is far from the truth/reality. It's FRUIT SUGAR that gets stored in the liver, hence fruit not being an ideal choice of carbs for bb'ers to use pwo as a means of replinishing glycogen stores to begin the recovery process. High GI carbs are what I use in the first LIQUID offering pwo, followed by a solid meal (solid meal can be high gi or low, no difference in recovery) at the same macros/ratios of carbs to protein. Fat is kept at as close
to null as possible.

Those looking for trusted advice, I'd recommend doing this:

Listen to the vets, they are vets for a reason. I almost wrote in a thread yesterday about watching what advice you take as being "gospel", as I see quite a few people shelling out advice that is not only wrong, but would have a person working in the opposite direction of what is desired. There are a lot of mis-informed "experts" on this board, most of whom I have on ignore to weed out the garbage.

Bino and Phate are "in the know". Good job guys.

'Layna

what do you use for PWO nutrition, just wondering as i don't advocate high GI carbs, i get better results from things like oatmeal and WMS

**eatrainrest** · 05-16-2009, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by C_Bino

Not true. Your muscle have a MUCH larger capacity for glycogen storage. Even if the type of carb you consume is delivered to the liver first for glycogenolysis the remainder and higher percentage of overall glucose will be taken to muscle for storage.

My view overall is to consume foods IMMEDIATELY after training no matter what. If you are cutting and decide to perform cardio after weights than wait till after the cardio session sure, but then as soon as cardio is over get that food (or shake) in you.

Yes glycogen synthetase remains higher in the blood after exercise for a while but the cortisol-blunting effect from food post exercise should be enough reason for anyone to consume foods as soon as possible after training/cardio is completed.

i agree with this statement, i say it in generally because there are better carb sources to be taken post workout than say an orange for an example

**mho** · 05-16-2009, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by C_Bino

Ya fructose does refill liver glycogen, thats why I said "even if they type of carb you consume goes to liver first."

But everyone's PWO nutrition will vary. I strongly believe (and practice) whole foods immediately PWO with medium to low GI carbs. I am giving this advice strictly for the bodybuilder who trains once daily.

Studies show glycogen takes 24-48 hours to actually replenish. So I dont see the need to take in high GI carbs in hopes of refilling glycogen...if you arent working our for another 24-48 hours anyway why do you need to refill all of your glycogen as soon as possible (even if it was possible)? Food alone will stop catabolism, sure you can argue about nutrient delivery with insulin . But I have still yet to read a study providing any information to lead me to believe that if I were to have dextrose or maltodextrin etc after workout or a sweet potato of the same carbohydrate quantity, I would gain more muscle using the dextrose.

I would rather not have the hypoglycemia associated with high GI foods, not to mention the supression in immune function from sugars and the general flux in blood sugar which yo-yo's enery levels and hormone secretion.

How much is medium to low in grams?

PWO you're in need of glucose, so would 70-100g of dextrose even cause hypoglycemia?

Does anybody know the answer to my first question? (post 8)

**Phate** · 05-16-2009, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by mho

The goal of taking simple sugars pwo is to increase creatine absorbtion and raise insulin levels quickly, right?

raising insulin mostly as the simpler the sugar the more of an insulin spike it causes

Originally Posted by mho

How much is medium to low in grams?
he means on the GI scale, which isn't measured in grams but give a number
PWO you're in need of glucose, so would 70-100g of dextrose even cause hypoglycemia?
no need for that much at all, 50-60g is more than enough IMO, though i wouldn't use dextrose anyway
Does anybody know the answer to my first question? (post 8)

yep yep