my DIRTY bulk

[BozzBanks]

I'm 23 years old and 5"11 tall. I started at 162 lbs two months ago and on recently weighed in at 172. My goal is to get to 190 lbs by this up-coming May, and this calculates to roughly 1 lb a week. I have always had a hard time gaining weight (being an ectomoprh with long thin bones), so I figured the best way for me to put on some significant muscle is to kind of gorge myself and not worry too much about my body fat%. I eat whatever I can get my hands on. I'm not really keeping track at all. At work I eat a lot of chicken sandwiches and hamburgers while at home I'll eat whatever my family happens to make for dinner (relatively healthy home-made food) until I can't eat anymore; all the while I drink about a quarter-to-a-half gallon of whole milk a day. Yes I have been gaining some fat (I can post pictures if you like), but my strength has been going up in all my lifts. I pretty much only utilize compound lifts in my workouts. I would say that i am at about 19% bf right now, and I know it will only get worse if I am to reach 190 lbs.. so my plan is to get there and then do a cut to about 180. Do you guys think think this is a good approach? I feel like trying to do a "clean bulk" (if there is such a thing) is so inefficient, especially for such a hard-gainer like myself. Let me know what you guys think!

[Reiid13]

Dirty bulk is just the lazy way of , well just just getting fat , and for your health , well you wont be healthy , you might eventually look better ( cutting 10lbs of fat , and leaving the rest of the fat ) , but that doesnt change that your arterys are getting clogged up with fat .

Speak to the pro dietitians mate , you want to get bulky , not flabby !

[hawk14dl]

Take it from me, dirty bulk is not the way to go. at 19%you're already past where most stop their bulks. Im 6'1 and did the same thing you're doing. Made it to 187 but way high bf%. Now I have to cut the fat down soi can get back toa healthy weight. My lifts went up as well, but my general health is terrible. I was at 23%.

Stop now while you're not too far gone. Read the bulking threads here. Theyre full of all the info you may need.

[hawk14dl]

And trust me when I say, clean bulking 10 lbs is easier then cutting 20 lb of fat

[gbrice75]

I have always had a hard time gaining weight

I would say that i am at about 19% bf right now

especially for such a hard-gainer like myself.

True ectomorphs who have a hard time gaining weight rarely reach nearly 20% bodyfat. Personally, I don't think you're an ectomorph based on that. You may have the skeletal structure of one, but you clearly have the propensity to store bodyfat well beyond the average ecto.

At 19% bodyfat, why are you even considering continuing in this vein?

[BozzBanks]

True ectomorphs who have a hard time gaining weight rarely reach nearly 20% bodyfat. Personally, I don't think you're an ectomorph based on that. You may have the skeletal structure of one, but you clearly have the propensity to store bodyfat well beyond the average ecto.

At 19% bodyfat, why are you even considering continuing in this vein?

Ok so here are my before and after pictures so far for this bulk. I estimated 19% but I could be off. You guys are kind of throwing me for a loop, this isn't the kind of feed-back I would have expected. I thought the point of bulking/cutting was to gain the muscle in bulk (alongside with fat) and then to shred it off? I thought this WAS the easier route and more efficient route, but now you're telling me I should just try to simultaneously gain muscle and lose/maintain body fat %?

The reason I am going this route is because nothing else has ever worked for me. I have always been skinny my whole life, and even though I work out and gain some muscle I still stay small.

[Reiid13]

You could be chiseled , doesnt mean your healthy , you cant expect people to endorse a unhealthy lifestyle.

Eating 5 big mac meals a day migh make you able to lift more , but your fat .
Dirty Bulking say 40lbs , then having to cut say 20 lbs of that ( because its fat ) is like a million times more harder ! And alot more unhealthy .

[gbrice75]

Ok so here are my before and after pictures so far for this bulk. I estimated 19% but I could be off. You guys are kind of throwing me for a loop, this isn't the kind of feed-back I would have expected. I thought the point of bulking/cutting was to gain the muscle in bulk (alongside with fat) and then to shred it off? I thought this WAS the easier route and more efficient route, but now you're telling me I should just try to simultaneously gain muscle and lose/maintain body fat %?

Who suggested that?!

IMHO - the perpetual 'bulking/cutting' cycle is NOT efficient, at least not for those of us who easily store bodyfat. Let's say you bulk and gain 20lbs in 3 months. Unless you're a complete newb to weight training, you'll be VERY LUCKY if 3-4lbs of that weight is muscle. Now you have to cut to get rid of the 16-17lbs of bodyfat you've added. If you start out relatively fat to begin with (which, in this sport, 19% most certainly is), you'll STILL have that to deal with. i.e. bulking will only compound an existing problem.

Generally, our bodies tend to be more efficient at partitioning nutrients in favor of muscle at lower bodyfat (~ 12%). You'd gain more muscle and less fat if you start off lean. Yes - the lean stay leaner, and the fat get fatter. Unfair, but it is what it is. Therefore, I always recommend people get nice and lean before trying to add serious mass. Yes, you're going to look small. So what? It's temporary. At least you'll be lean... and when you do start adding real muscle, you'll actually be able to SEE your results, which is huge with regard to staying motivated.

Here's the good news though: based on your pics, you're not 19%. No way. You have the illusion of higher bodyfat due to lack of muscular development (no offense). You're probably 15%, tops. This is good news. This means that if you take my advice, you could be good and lean in 12-16 weeks, then start a proper 'bulk' (I hate using that word as traditionally it implies getting fat).

[Reiid13]

^^^^^^ This dude knows what the fudge he's talking about , check out his cutting log:

http://forums.steroid.com/nutrition-...-v2-0-***.html

This is also what im doing , im not fat , but im getting rid of all the fat then bulking , and for me its mentally alot easier too.
Honestly Bozzbanks , when you see your muscle definition and you start to clean bulk , you'll thank us !

[mockery]

ive done both very efficiently

and for me, i rather bulk and cut back. lean body recomp is a waste of time. unless you are at the end of you goal weight and dont need to get bigger.

[gbrice75]

lean body recomp is a waste of time.

What a dumb, blanket comment. Just because it didn't go well for you (or perhaps you weren't diligent enough) doesn't make it a "waste of time" for everybody. Go bring your stance to Nark or Fireguy, both of whom are competitive bodybuilders (who have won titles) and the former also a prep coach.

[ironbeck]

Your pictures are rather discouraging imo. Are you training all muscle groups? No your not, are you training as hard as you can? No your not.
You could of got better results with no gear and the right plan, dedication and intensity.

[mockery]

i nailed my body recomp. but i even went further bulking. put the two side by side. i say bulking comes out on top unless you have reached your goal weight, then things shift to body recomp.

But i disagree with the stance that body recomp is just that good, maybe for yoru average skinny kid on this forum. not for serious lifters. i wont go into detail to much on the off topic, but i see way to much binging in diets on peoples logs here. this is the problem, even lyle said no matter what you do aside from taking drugs if you continue to binge eat doesn't matter how hard you diet or train it will stall any and all progress.

[mockery]

Your pictures are rather discouraging imo. Are you training all muscle groups? No your not, are you training as hard as you can? No your not.
You could of got better results with no gear and the right plan, dedication and intensity.

instead of drugs, spend 200 a week on food, and 1, 90 minute session with a good PT, generally someone who has stepped on stage and has won the worlds or nationals. this will take you farther then any drugs can for a period of time

[BozzBanks]

Your pictures are rather discouraging imo. Are you training all muscle groups? No your not, are you training as hard as you can? No your not.
You could of got better results with no gear and the right plan, dedication and intensity.

I resent all of your assumptions, and who said anything about gear? I have been very diligent in following Mark Rippetoe's 3x5 workout regiment, and have been eating like it's my ****ing job. I increase the weight in all of my lifts every single workout while maintaining very good form. I'm just starting out dude how much do you expect in a month's worth of work? lol

[BozzBanks]

^^^^^^ This dude knows what the fudge he's talking about , check out his cutting log:

http://forums.steroid.com/nutrition-...-v2-0-***.html

This is also what im doing , im not fat , but im getting rid of all the fat then bulking , and for me its mentally alot easier too.
Honestly Bozzbanks , when you see your muscle definition and you start to clean bulk , you'll thank us !

Hmm thanks for the input fellas. I'm definitely going to look into it.. I guess i'll do some research on this "clean bulk" you speak of and see how it suits me. I just have to say.. as a kid who has ALWAYS been skinny, there's nothing more discouraging for me than stepping on the scale after a week's worth of lifting and seeing either no increase or even a decrease in my weight :/

[BozzBanks]

Who suggested that?!

IMHO - the perpetual 'bulking/cutting' cycle is NOT efficient, at least not for those of us who easily store bodyfat. Let's say you bulk and gain 20lbs in 3 months. Unless you're a complete newb to weight training, you'll be VERY LUCKY if 3-4lbs of that weight is muscle. Now you have to cut to get rid of the 16-17lbs of bodyfat you've added. If you start out relatively fat to begin with (which, in this sport, 19% most certainly is), you'll STILL have that to deal with. i.e. bulking will only compound an existing problem.

Generally, our bodies tend to be more efficient at partitioning nutrients in favor of muscle at lower bodyfat (~ 12%). You'd gain more muscle and less fat if you start off lean. Yes - the lean stay leaner, and the fat get fatter. Unfair, but it is what it is. Therefore, I always recommend people get nice and lean before trying to add serious mass. Yes, you're going to look small. So what? It's temporary. At least you'll be lean... and when you do start adding real muscle, you'll actually be able to SEE your results, which is huge with regard to staying motivated.

Here's the good news though: based on your pics, you're not 19%. No way. You have the illusion of higher bodyfat due to lack of muscular development (no offense). You're probably 15%, tops. This is good news. This means that if you take my advice, you could be good and lean in 12-16 weeks, then start a proper 'bulk' (I hate using that word as traditionally it implies getting fat).

Again, thanks for all the input. But am I hearing this correctly? You're suggesting I get more lean and THEN start a "clean bulk". Sorry this is just going against everything anyone has ever told me or that I have read o.o

[mockery]

u cant clean bulk and do rips starting strength.

[Reiid13]

Again, thanks for all the input. But am I hearing this correctly? You're suggesting I get more lean and THEN start a "clean bulk". Sorry this is just going against everything anyone has ever told me or that I have read o.o

Dude , you want to build muscle right and add weight ? , you want to look in the mirror a year from now and see a noticeable gain in size thats MUSCLE .

You either do it the unhealthy and alot harder option of eating your big macs 5 times a day .
Or....
You do it clean and eat whole foods that will add muscle , make you have better skin , and the list goes on ....

You dont want to look in the mirror a year from now , looking pregnant , have a big pair of b1tch tits then you'll come back and ask how to cut from 30% BF ( and the rest) to looking a jacked 10% or so .

You can add muscle and stay healthy !!

[GirlyGymRat]

Hi Bozz! I didn't realize how controversial a dirty bulk thread lOl.

May i offer my observations after reading alot of members threads. Those who do dirty bulk tend to gain more fat then muscle. Not saying it isn't effective but they normally start another log and then clean bulk.

So you got some good news about your bf% from GB. .

I recommend you focus on training and diet. Eat clean and train hard.

[mockery]

I think the biggest issue on this forum is people dont know the difference from bulking and everything else between.

alot associate bulking with "dirty" or fat gain. Or clean eating cant be associated with bulking.

Yoyo diets and binge eating during diets and after a diet is what sets everyone back. No brainer here. If you wanna grow, you have to train HARD , take advantage of your youth and eat a healthy diet. All the small concepts that get brought up daily here alot will only help a person .25% in recomp... for a stage athelete these are huge when the sum of the total is added. For a weekend warrior skinny fat part time gym goer, it really doesn't amount to anything, especially when people are going out drinking regularly, cheat meals are blowing out of context (free meal) and they change their fitness plans too often to be of any use.

Eat whole foods, eat alot of said whole foods, stay away from shakes and to much processed food. Add salads , with dressing if you want who cares. Keep a record of what you eat so you have an idea of whats up. There are alot of old time lifters who have nerver weighed a meal or dieted , drink coke all day and eat whatever their wifes cooks for them. The secret here is they eat sleep and train and worry less about the newest diet fad and more about eat big and train hard.

Simple, if you find that your bulk is adding too much fat, increase cardio, re evaluate after a period of time. Regular dexa scans and dont look at scales, water weight is to much of a mind ****. go by how you look in the mirror.

[tarmyg]

--->SNIPP go by how you look in the mirror.

Print this out and put ON your MIRROR!

Thanks
~T

---

"I stay mostly by myself, but it's OK, they know me here"
Follow my personal story here: Anabolic Steroids - Steroid.com Forums - An honest journey - Blogs

[Bonaparte]

I'm pretty sure you're putting on nothing but fat, since you have practically no lean mass.
Are you working out much?
You should be doing a lot of heavy compound lifts at this stage in your training.
And avoid the burgers.

[NaijaBoy]

I think the biggest issue on this forum is people dont know the difference from bulking and everything else between. alot associate bulking with "dirty" or fat gain. Or clean eating cant be associated with bulking. Yoyo diets and binge eating during diets and after a diet is what sets everyone back. No brainer here. If you wanna grow, you have to train HARD , take advantage of your youth and eat a healthy diet. All the small concepts that get brought up daily here alot will only help a person .25% in recomp... for a stage athelete these are huge when the sum of the total is added. For a weekend warrior skinny fat part time gym goer, it really doesn't amount to anything, especially when people are going out drinking regularly, cheat meals are blowing out of context (free meal) and they change their fitness plans too often to be of any use. Eat whole foods, eat alot of said whole foods, stay away from shakes and to much processed food. Add salads , with dressing if you want who cares. Keep a record of what you eat so you have an idea of whats up. There are alot of old time lifters who have nerver weighed a meal or dieted , drink coke all day and eat whatever their wifes cooks for them. The secret here is they eat sleep and train and worry less about the newest diet fad and more about eat big and train hard. Simple, if you find that your bulk is adding too much fat, increase cardio, re evaluate after a period of time. Regular dexa scans and dont look at scales, water weight is to much of a mind ****. go by how you look in the mirror.

+1.
That's how I do it. Eat big and clean. Train hard and sleep well. Adjust cardio as needed.

[gbrice75]

i nailed my body recomp. but i even went further bulking. put the two side by side. i say bulking comes out on top unless you have reached your goal weight, then things shift to body recomp.

Again, this isn't going to apply to everybody. What would you suggest to those of us (including myself) who have a MUCH higher propensity to storing bodyfat (as per poor genetics, previous lifestyle, whatever)? Bulking will never be an option, clean or dirty. Btw, the OP cleary has this same propensity, despite claims of eating tons of food and not seeing the scale move. The pics say it all (again, no offense OP).

But i disagree with the stance that body recomp is just that good, maybe for yoru average skinny kid on this forum.

Which describes the majority of people here, especially in this section.

not for serious lifters.

Again - I'd love to hear you argue this position with guys like Nark, Fireguy, or Reed. All serious, competitive bodybuilders who live the lifestyle 24/7.

i wont go into detail to much on the off topic, but i see way to much binging in diets on peoples logs here. this is the problem, even lyle said no matter what you do aside from taking drugs if you continue to binge eat doesn't matter how hard you diet or train it will stall any and all progress.

No disagreement on this point.

Again, thanks for all the input. But am I hearing this correctly? You're suggesting I get more lean and THEN start a "clean bulk". Sorry this is just going against everything anyone has ever told me or that I have read o.o

Yep, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. Don't worry about what "anyone" has told you, or what you've read. Most people are idiots. Not saying I have all the answer, or that I'm right and they're wrong - but you've obviously tried that approach, how's it working out for you? Now try this alternate approach. Psysiologically, it just makes sense.

Dude , you want to build muscle right and add weight ? , you want to look in the mirror a year from now and see a noticeable gain in size thats MUSCLE .

You either do it the unhealthy and alot harder option of eating your big macs 5 times a day .
Or....
You do it clean and eat whole foods that will add muscle , make you have better skin , and the list goes on ....

You dont want to look in the mirror a year from now , looking pregnant , have a big pair of b1tch tits then you'll come back and ask how to cut from 30% BF ( and the rest) to looking a jacked 10% or so .

You can add muscle and stay healthy !!

^^ true story!!! Happens all the time... newb XYZ bulks, gets big and fat, then starts a thread about needing a "good cutting diet". We see it over and over again...

I think the biggest issue on this forum is people dont know the difference from bulking and everything else between.

alot associate bulking with "dirty" or fat gain. Or clean eating cant be associated with bulking.

Agree with this. I don't even use the term "bulking" because of the negative connotations. I'm either in a mass adding phase, a cutting phase, or a maintaining phase. I'm either eating a hypercaloric diet, a hypocaloric diet, or at maintenance. Simple as that.

Yoyo diets and binge eating during diets and after a diet is what sets everyone back. No brainer here. If you wanna grow, you have to train HARD , take advantage of your youth and eat a healthy diet. All the small concepts that get brought up daily here alot will only help a person .25% in recomp... for a stage athelete these are huge when the sum of the total is added. For a weekend warrior skinny fat part time gym goer, it really doesn't amount to anything, especially when people are going out drinking regularly, cheat meals are blowing out of context (free meal) and they change their fitness plans too often to be of any use.

Eat whole foods, eat alot of said whole foods, stay away from shakes and to much processed food. Add salads , with dressing if you want who cares. Keep a record of what you eat so you have an idea of whats up. There are alot of old time lifters who have nerver weighed a meal or dieted , drink coke all day and eat whatever their wifes cooks for them. The secret here is they eat sleep and train and worry less about the newest diet fad and more about eat big and train hard.

Now you're making some sense.

[mockery]

1.)Well if you are prone to extreme fat gain, u have to be very diligent in controlling the macros you eat , even possible reverse dieting till u find where you were not gaining fat and when you started to put it on rapidly.

2.) The average skinny kid on these forums will grow from anything being eaten and regular resistance training. They really could make gains out of nothing as long as they keep eating and train 3x a week . Especially true for people in their late teens and early 20's.

3.) tell me, how many years has these 3 people been lifting for? tell me the drugs they have used in the past. Show me if they have a genetic advantage over the next guy and how hard have they worked, what did they give up in life to achieve these things? You think all or any of these guys have never bulked and all did body recomp all their years of training,? I dont buy into this.

This is a different generation, its the NOW generation. People dont see results they start using drugs, Google searching the best diet the best work out routine...

A even bigger problem is some people are not meant to be lean and in shape and have awesome cuts, they will look flat and nothing special. it is what it is, not everyone is a body builder. These people can work their ass off, take large amounts of aas and achieve something better, but at what cost, friends, health, your youth? Hardly seems worth it, seeing flex wheeler come off drugs for a few years and stop training how below average he become came, skinny fat with large arms. ONe of the best bodies on stage to some one you would never give a second look at. IS all that hard work worth it in the end if you wont be put dinner on teh table and proving for your family?

people cut and diet when they are small only to look smaller. This is a common question asked on youtube with all the in the media dietitians at the moment, they are share a common answer, you are simply cutting before its necessary. Eat big and when u start getting pudgy, start some light cardio and re evaluate every 14-16 days.

[gbrice75]

1.)Well if you are prone to extreme fat gain, u have to be very diligent in controlling the macros you eat , even possible reverse dieting till u find where you were not gaining fat and when you started to put it on rapidly.

Right. Or, you concede that the typical 'bulking' approach isn't for you, and never will be. Luckily, there are other approaches to adding lean mass that mitigate bodyfat gains. Again, there's no "one size fits all" approach to any aspect of this sport, I'd expect you'd know and agree with this.

2.) The average skinny kid on these forums will grow from anything being eaten and regular resistance training. They really could make gains out of nothing as long as they keep eating and train 3x a week . Especially true for people in their late teens and early 20's.

Agree. Not sure how this is relevant to the debate however, seeing as the OP is not your "average skinny kid on these forums" and you chose his thread to spark this argument.

3.) tell me, how many years has these 3 people been lifting for? tell me the drugs they have used in the past. Show me if they have a genetic advantage over the next guy and how hard have they worked, what did they give up in life to achieve these things? You think all or any of these guys have never bulked and all did body recomp all their years of training,? I dont buy into this.

I don't see how any of those factors matter - you've completely missed the point. The point was that I've cited 3 seasoned veterans, all of whom live the lifestyle and have learned over the years that recomp is, for the most part, a more efficient approach for themselves, individually. Note I never came on here telling anybody that recomp is the only way to go and bulking is terrible. There are plenty of people who benefit greatly from bulking (re: your average skinny kid on this forum). What I said was bulking isn't for everyone. You decided to write off recomp as if it were useless for the masses. That's not only factually wrong, it's also an irresponsible comment that may send some newb on the wrong path for years to come.

This is a different generation, its the NOW generation. People dont see results they start using drugs

Thank God we have a responsible board like this with members and staff who collectively work to dissuade (what we'd consider) non-AAS candidates away from drugs.

Google searching the best diet the best work out routine...

So what? An abundance of information is a bad thing? To me, it's a good thing. It allows people to try out a variety of approaches and, if they're being diligent, take note of what they like and don't like, what seems to work better and what doesn't, etc. I don't know about you, but personally I'd prefer that over 1 dude telling me what to do as if it's written in stone. I don't care WHO he is.

A even bigger problem is some people are not meant to be lean and in shape and have awesome cuts, they will look flat and nothing special. it is what it is, not everyone is a body builder. These people can work their ass off, take large amounts of aas and achieve something better, but at what cost, friends, health, your youth? Hardly seems worth it, seeing flex wheeler come off drugs for a few years and stop training how below average he become came, skinny fat with large arms. ONe of the best bodies on stage to some one you would never give a second look at. IS all that hard work worth it in the end if you wont be put dinner on teh table and proving for your family?

Digress much? We were talking about bulking vs. recomp, now we're somehow on the topic of the cost of the lifestyle.

people cut and diet when they are small only to look smaller. This is a common question asked on youtube with all the in the media dietitians at the moment, they are share a common answer, you are simply cutting before its necessary.

1 - I hardly consider Youtube dieticians and/or 'gurus' credible sources. So their common opinion (and that's all it is) doesn't hold much water for me.

2- Even if they were, just because they say something makes it so? I'll quote an increasingly popular, up-and-coming strength/prep coach here in the US - John Otis Hollywood: "First you must lose all your fat, then you can bulk". Nowhere in there is fine print that states "but if you're small and pudgy, you can bulk, because it's better to look big and pudgier".

Eat big and when u start getting pudgy, start some light cardio and re evaluate every 14-16 days.

Great advice in a thread started by someone who's already pudgy (no offense OP). Again, you make blanket absolute statements as if they apply to everyone. I like to look at the individual and make a recommendation based on his/her personal attributes.