Do carbs turn into fat?

[superflyanimal]

Hi,

I've heard different answers to this. There are 2 different types of carbs: simple and complex


Simple
Table sugar, Corn syrup, Fruit juice, Candy, Cake, Bread made with white flour, Pasta made with white flour, Soda pop, such as Coke, Pepsi, Mountain Dew etc, Most packaged cereals

Complex
Spinach, Whole Barley, Grapefruit, Plums, Strawberries, Cabbage, Oatmeal, potatoes, broccoli, carrots, brussels sprouts, bread


The simple carbs seem to be the sugary ones, so are these the type of carbs that turn into fat. I know complex carbs are harder to break down so these would turn into energy more and fat less, where as simple ones turn into fat easier?

[Docd187123]

Carbs do not turn into fats except for in extreme circumstances such as when your glycogen levels are full and you eat an insane amount of carbs for several days...think 600-700+ grams of carbs for 2+ days.

Edit* the issue of complex vs simple carbs is moot unless you're diabetic or eating carbs in isolation. Protein and fat will both slow down the digestion time of all carbs including the simple ones.

[superflyanimal]

Carbs do not turn into fats except for in extreme circumstances such as when your glycogen levels are full

Why then are "cutting phases" and fat loss always associated with that old cliche of "cuttin out the carbs" and reducing their intake. I am trying to cut down my body fat percentage while still gaining some muscle (clean bulk), so I have reduced my carb intake slightly. I am still getting carbs but reduced my daily intake.

[superflyanimal]

I also just watched a video on "why you got fat", where the medical/nutrition person explains that when we eat excess carbohydrates, you raise your blood sugar and since high blood sugar is toxic, the body produces insulin . But this insulin can only convert so much sugar at a time and therefore, the rest of the carbohydrates are stored as fat. And after bringing down the blood sugar, your body tells you to store fat.

[Khazima]

Your body stores excess calories as fat, not carbohydrates, if the glycogen stores are already full then excess is stored as fat.

[superflyanimal]

Your body stores excess calories as fat, not carbohydrates, if the glycogen stores are already full then excess is stored as fat.

So if people have a high body fat, then its because they are consuming too much calories? That seems a little too simplistic. People need to be eating extra calories in order to grow and bulk, but people can do this without gaining fat. So the fat must come from eating either excess fat or carbs, as protein doesnt get stored as fat.

[Khazima]

It is as simple as calories in vs calories out, stop overthinking things.

[superflyanimal]

It is as simple as calories in vs calories out, stop overthinking things.

How are you meant to bulk without gaining fat (staying ripped/low body fat)?

[Docd187123]

Why then are "cutting phases" and fat loss always associated with that old cliche of "cuttin out the carbs" and reducing their intake.

For two reasons:

1) when you go on a cut total calorie intake must be lower than total calorie expenditure. Protein and fats are essential nutrients and protein especially is required to repair damaged muscle tissue as well as preventing muscle loss. So unless you're taking in an extravgant amount of protein you don't have much room to cut down protein, especially if you're already close to your minimum requirements. Fats too are an essential nutrient so you can't cut them out completely for extended periods of time but you can certainly drop them. All that leaves is carbs to cut down since carbs are not an essential nutrient and this is where your calorie reduction will come from for most people. Plus by cutting carbs you can lose some water weight or reduce any bloating you may have which is more aesthetically pleasing for some.

2) people don't know any better and think carbs can be stored as fat without extreme circumstances.

I am trying to cut down my body fat percentage while still gaining some muscle (clean bulk), so I have reduced my carb intake slightly. I am still getting carbs but reduced my daily intake.

A clean bulk is when you gain muscle mass and limit the amount of fat you gain to a minimum. It doesn't mean you burn fat and build muscle at the same time. Unless you have a nutritionist or have experience with your body and dieting I'd suggest to pick one goal and stick with it. Either cut or bulk but not both. Good luck.

[Docd187123]

I also just watched a video on "why you got fat", where the medical/nutrition person explains that when we eat excess carbohydrates, you raise your blood sugar and since high blood sugar is toxic, the body produces insulin. But this insulin can only convert so much sugar at a time and therefore, the rest of the carbohydrates are stored as fat. And after bringing down the blood sugar, you're body tells you to store fat.

Unfortunately that's not how it works. Don't trust most videos you see on the web. Here's a link if you want a more detailed explanation.

How We Get Fat | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

[Docd187123]

So if people have a high body fat, then its because they are consuming too much calories? That seems a little too simplistic. People need to be eating extra calories in order to grow and bulk, but people can do this without gaining fat. So the fat must come from eating either excess fat or carbs, as protein doesnt get stored as fat.

How are you meant to bulk without gaining fat (staying ripped/low body fat)?

It is that simple, unless you get into the physiology of it all, it people want to make it more complicated than that. People cannot grow and bulk without gaining fat. The amount of protein (LBM) one gains for the amount of weight they gain is called the P-ratio. Basically it determines how much of the excess calories you eat will go to building muscle and how much to building fat. Nobody has a 0 P-ratio which would mean all the calories went to muscle and no accumulated fat gain.

Typically only dietary fat will be stored as fat except for extreme cases as I mentioned in post #2. Protein will never get stored as fat but it will contribute to a caloric excess over TDEE which then will inhibit some fatty acid oxidation and help contribute to a net fat gain (or at least reduction in amount of fat lost if cutting). Carbs are typically only used for energy purposes. When you eat too many carbs you burn them off so remaining energy demands are reduced which means less stored BF is oxidized. When you eat less carbs, less carbs are burned and you'll need to tap into BF stores more to get the required energy needs.

[kelkel]

It is that simple, unless you get into the physiology of it all, it people want to make it more complicated than that. People cannot grow and bulk without gaining fat. The amount of protein (LBM) one gains for the amount of weight they gain is called the P-ratio. Basically it determines how much of the excess calories you eat will go to building muscle and how much to building fat. Nobody has a 0 P-ratio which would mean all the calories went to muscle and no accumulated fat gain.

Typically only dietary fat will be stored as fat except for extreme cases as I mentioned in post #2. Protein will never get stored as fat but it will contribute to a caloric excess over TDEE which then will inhibit some fatty acid oxidation and help contribute to a net fat gain (or at least reduction in amount of fat lost if cutting). Carbs are typically only used for energy purposes. When you eat too many carbs you burn them off so remaining energy demands are reduced which means less stored BF is oxidized. When you eat less carbs, less carbs are burned and you'll need to tap into BF stores more to get the required energy needs.

Quiz to follow?

[Docd187123]

Quiz to follow?

Judging by the vascularity in your calves, you've already aced it

[superflyanimal]

Okay Docd187123 , I see why they call you a "Knowledgeable Member", that is very useful information, I think I'm getting there, but still a few more questions probably.

1) So also as Zhazima and yourself said, you are going to gain fat when you are consuming more calories than you are burning off in a day.

2) Most people when they cut still need healthy fats and protein, so in order to reduce the calories they "cut out the carbs" as this is the least essential food group compared to the others. This allows them to go into a slight calorie deficit while also stopping the water retention and bloating associated with eating lots of carbs.

3) So essentially, I still have a lot of bodyfat, about 12-13%, so I would still need to reduce my calorie intake to go into a slight calorie deficit if I want to lose that fat and become more ripped, correct? So I need to readjust my protein, carb and healthy fats ratio so I go into the deficit state. I still think reducing the carbs is a good option for me though, because as you mentioned, protein and healthy fats are more essential nutrients.


I'll have a read through that article now...

[Docd187123]

Okay Docd187123 , I see why they call you a "Knowledgeable Member", that is very useful information, I think I'm getting there, but still a few more questions probably.

1) So also as Zhazima and yourself said, you are going to gain fat when you are consuming more calories than you are burning off in a day.

2) Most people when they cut still need healthy fats and protein, so in order to reduce the calories they "cut out the carbs" as this is the least essential food group compared to the others. This allows them to go into a slight calorie deficit while also stopping the water retention and bloating associated with eating lots of carbs.

3) So essentially, I still have a lot of bodyfat, about 12-13%, so I would still need to reduce my calorie intake to go into a slight calorie deficit if I want to lose that fat and become more ripped, correct? So I need to readjust my protein, carb and healthy fats ratio so I go into the deficit state. I still think reducing the carbs is a good option for me though, because as you mentioned, protein and healthy fats are more essential nutrients.


I'll have a read through that article now...

Correct.

[Khazima]

Okay Docd187123 , I see why they call you a "Knowledgeable Member", that is very useful information, I think I'm getting there, but still a few more questions probably.

1) So also as Zhazima and yourself said, you are going to gain fat when you are consuming more calories than you are burning off in a day.

2) Most people when they cut still need healthy fats and protein, so in order to reduce the calories they "cut out the carbs" as this is the least essential food group compared to the others. This allows them to go into a slight calorie deficit while also stopping the water retention and bloating associated with eating lots of carbs.

3) So essentially, I still have a lot of bodyfat, about 12-13%, so I would still need to reduce my calorie intake to go into a slight calorie deficit if I want to lose that fat and become more ripped, correct? So I need to readjust my protein, carb and healthy fats ratio so I go into the deficit state. I still think reducing the carbs is a good option for me though, because as you mentioned, protein and healthy fats are more essential nutrients.


I'll have a read through that article now...

A real 12-13% is pretty low, you should be able to start seeing some abs and vascularity by then.

I mostly like to play with carbs and leave protein and fats static, unless I feel like i don't have enough energy, in which case I'll lower my fats slightly and up my carbs.

It's all about calories in vs calories out, and doing it in a way that is manageable and easier to adhere to.


Thanks for the great info doc, very informative

[superflyanimal]

Okay, so I have had a proper chance to read that article, which was extremely informative (I recommend giving it a read). I'd like to sum up some other points that I have learnt from this article in case any other newbies are new to this too.

The primary storage of fat in the body is in fat cells. Most of that is found in what is called subcutaneous fat, which is found under the skin. There is also fat stored around the gut area called visceral fat (this surrounds the organs). Fat can also be stored in ‘bad’ places like the liver and pancreas under certain conditions; this is called ectopic fat storage.

1) Carbs are rarely converted to fat and stored as such
2) When you eat more carbs you burn more carbs and less fat; eat less carbs and you burn less carbs and more fat
3) Protein is basically never going to be converted to fat and stored as such
4) When you eat more protein, you burn more protein (and by extension, less carbs and less fat); eat less protein and you burn less protein (and by extension, more carbs and more fat)
5) Ingested dietary fat is primarily stored, eating more of it doesn’t impact on fat oxidation to a significant degree

So basically what this boils down to, is that the body has a limited amount of burning (oxidation) that can be carried out per day. If you eat too much protein and carbs, your body will use this burning process on oxidising the excess protein and carbs, leaving little oxidation for burning off the fat, thus more fat will get stored rather than getting burnt off. So to reiterate, it is not so much excess protein and carbs that get "stored" as fat, but rather they use up the limited amount of the oxidation process that would otherwise burn off the fat that is consumed.

If you want to burn off fat and minimise gain loss, make sure you are in a slight calorie deficit, which most people do by "cutting down on carbs" so the body will burn off fat to use as energy, while keeping the protein and healthy fats to help with muscle growth. Also, keep the unhealthy fats to a minimum so that these do not get stored directly as fat.

[Khazima]

Okay, so I have had a proper chance to read that article, which was extremely informative (I recommend giving it a read). I'd like to sum up some other points that I have learnt from this article in case any other newbies are new to this too.

The primary storage of fat in the body is in fat cells. Most of that is found in what is called subcutaneous fat, which is found under the skin. There is also fat stored around the gut area called visceral fat (this surrounds the organs). Fat can also be stored in ‘bad’ places like the liver and pancreas under certain conditions; this is called ectopic fat storage.

1) Carbs are rarely converted to fat and stored as such
2) When you eat more carbs you burn more carbs and less fat; eat less carbs and you burn less carbs and more fat
3) Protein is basically never going to be converted to fat and stored as such
4) When you eat more protein, you burn more protein (and by extension, less carbs and less fat); eat less protein and you burn less protein (and by extension, more carbs and more fat)
5) Ingested dietary fat is primarily stored, eating more of it doesn’t impact on fat oxidation to a significant degree

So basically what this boils down to, is that the body has a limited amount of burning (oxidation) that can be carried out per day. If you eat too much protein and carbs, your body will use this burning process on oxidising the excess protein and carbs, leaving little oxidation for burning off the fat, thus more fat will get stored rather than getting burnt off. So to reiterate, it is not so much excess protein and carbs that get "stored" as fat, but rather they use up the limited amount of the oxidation process that would otherwise burn off the fat that is consumed.

If you want to burn off fat and minimise gain loss, make sure you are in a slight calorie deficit, which most people do by "cutting down on carbs" so the body will burn off fat to use as energy, while keeping the protein and healthy fats to help with muscle growth. Also, keep the unhealthy fats to a minimum so that these do not get stored directly as fat.

Good to see you did the research, the end point to that is spot on.

[Docd187123]

Okay, so I have had a proper chance to read that article, which was extremely informative (I recommend giving it a read). I'd like to sum up some other points that I have learnt from this article in case any other newbies are new to this too.

The primary storage of fat in the body is in fat cells. Most of that is found in what is called subcutaneous fat, which is found under the skin. There is also fat stored around the gut area called visceral fat (this surrounds the organs). Fat can also be stored in ‘bad’ places like the liver and pancreas under certain conditions; this is called ectopic fat storage.

1) Carbs are rarely converted to fat and stored as such
2) When you eat more carbs you burn more carbs and less fat; eat less carbs and you burn less carbs and more fat
3) Protein is basically never going to be converted to fat and stored as such
4) When you eat more protein, you burn more protein (and by extension, less carbs and less fat); eat less protein and you burn less protein (and by extension, more carbs and more fat)
5) Ingested dietary fat is primarily stored, eating more of it doesn’t impact on fat oxidation to a significant degree

So basically what this boils down to, is that the body has a limited amount of burning (oxidation) that can be carried out per day. If you eat too much protein and carbs, your body will use this burning process on oxidising the excess protein and carbs, leaving little oxidation for burning off the fat, thus more fat will get stored rather than getting burnt off. So to reiterate, it is not so much excess protein and carbs that get "stored" as fat, but rather they use up the limited amount of the oxidation process that would otherwise burn off the fat that is consumed.

If you want to burn off fat and minimise gain loss, make sure you are in a slight calorie deficit, which most people do by "cutting down on carbs" so the body will burn off fat to use as energy, while keeping the protein and healthy fats to help with muscle growth. Also, keep the unhealthy fats to a minimum so that these do not get stored directly as fat.

On the whole you nailed it but some minor nitpicking:

1) the amount of fat oxidation possible in a day is only limited by the energy demands minus the energy intake each day. You could theoretically just do non-stop cardio all day or soemthing and ramp up your caloric expenditure to keep oxidizing fat well past what's considered a normal fat loss rate.

2) it's not that more fat gets stored when you eat an excess amount of carbs and protein bc all dietary fat intake is stored and then used as needed. It's really you will oxidize less stored fat than you would have had your calorie intake (protein and carbs in this example) been lower. The net fat change would be affected but not the storage part of it where net fat = fat storage - fat oxidation.

3) the only really unhealthy fat is artificial transfats. All other fats, even saturated fat, have their own pros and cons.

[superflyanimal]

Ok, I will just reiterate what you said in simple terms as it helps me learn:

1) The Fat oxidation limit is basically your energy intake, so you can keep the fat oxidisation process going while your body still allows you to exercise, so up until your legs turn into jelly and you look like a spaghetti monsters like those girls in the "very funny marathon finish" video.

2) Fat is always stored as fat first, then used/burnt/oxidised for energy.

3) We will leave this for another thread.

Thanks again Docd187123 and Khazima for the input.




“Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do.” - Bruce Lee
"Knowledge that is not applied is useless. It is like being able to read, but never haven read a book." Unknown

[GirlyGymRat]

Extremely informative thread superfly, doc and K. Well done! Thank you.