question about cyp to prop swtich for HRT

[axiomatic6]

Hi, i am on 200mg test cyp every 2 weeks. to make it easier lets just say 100mg per week.

i get bad water retention even at this low dose, so i asked my Dr. to swtich me to test propionate . she wasnt familair with it at all, but she agreed. she had to look it up in her PDR wich said 10-25mg twice a week was standard for HRT. so anyway she wrote me for 25mg twice a week. this doesnt seem right to me, thats only 50mg a week.

does anyone have any information on this?

thanks

[Kale]

Prop is not a good choice for HRT given the short half life of the Ester, for Prop to be effective even for HRT it would need to be shot at least EOD. As for the 50mg you would need a blood test to see if its effective. I do Test E at 60mg per week and that is more than enough to keep me near the top of the range, but everyone id different so a blood test is required to be sure. Test Cyp does tend to bloat a little more than Test E, why not switch to Test E and take 0.25mg Arimidex EOD, that will control the bloat pretty well.

[axiomatic6]

ok THANKS A LOT. she has me on 200mg E2W, would iot be better to do 100mg EW instead? also i will have her write me for enethate.

[Kale]

ok THANKS A LOT. she has me on 200mg E2W, would iot be better to do 100mg EW instead? also i will have her write me for enethate.

Absolutely every week is better your levels will be much more stable and you wont get that up and down feeling. Make sure you get the adex as well, you can get it from AR-R if she wont prescribe it.

[axiomatic6]

ok, i didnt know endo;s would perscibe that. if i called her, what would i say, just ask will you wirte me for arimidex ? when i saw her today i told her about the water retention and told her you could see it in my ankles, she did not offer anything for it though. do i tell her the a-dex is for water retention?

[Kale]

ok, i didnt know endo;s would perscibe that. if i called her, what would i say, just ask will you wirte me for arimidex? when i saw her today i told her about the water retention and told her you could see it in my ankles, she did not offer anything for it though. do i tell her the a-dex is for water retention?

Yeah thats a tough one dude, A-dex is actually used to treat Breast Cancer so I dont think she will fully understand just get it from AR-R it only takes a couple of days to arrive

[axiomatic6]

ok, really appreciate it kale.

is it safe to stay on all the time?

[Kale]

ok, really appreciate it kale.

is it safe to stay on all the time?

U mean Test or a-dex ? How old are you ? What were your test levels when you started HRT ?

[axiomatic6]

i am 29, i mean is it safe to stay on a-dex for a long time

[Kale]

i am 29, i mean is it safe to stay on a-dex for a long time

Now thats a question I cant answer, I doubt there have been any studies done on men using A-dex at all let alone long term. Who know what the long term effects are of anything we do when we juice to be honest. There may be other drugs that you can get for bloat, maybe check that out with the Dr first.

[doublefister]

Tell your endo that your nips are getting sensitive and you feel bloated. She will then prescribe you some Arimidex . Its very expensive though like $100 for 1mg tabs and not very many. I would definitely go with the liquid version for the better price and extra quantity.

[cmax]

My endo has no trouble prescribing me test cyp, test E, or even Deca , but when I asked him for an anti-e like arimidex he says "No, it's too dangerous". WTF?!?

[cmax]

Now thats a question I cant answer, I doubt there have been any studies done on men using A-dex at all let alone long term. Who know what the long term effects are of anything we do when we juice to be honest. There may be other drugs that you can get for bloat, maybe check that out with the Dr first.

My General Practitioner seems to think that HRT longterm will kill you. He is trying to scare me away from AAS and HRT at all costs.

[Kale]

My General Practitioner seems to think that HRT longterm will kill you. He is trying to scare me away from AAS and HRT at all costs.

Well I am going to be one buffed corpse because I aint stopping thats for sure

[Spyke]

My General Practitioner seems to think that HRT longterm will kill you. He is trying to scare me away from AAS and HRT at all costs.

WTF?

In cases of guys who REALLY need hrt, how can he even think that? What a quack! So he would rather see me running around with test levels slightly higher then some women, with tons of belly fat, feeling tired all the time and wanting to have sex once a month?

True HRT is just putting back somethng ( in normal amounts) that is not there for whatever reason. Just like a diabetic with insulin . Now if he is talking about guys doing heavy WWF style AAS cycles where they spend more time on then off, he may have a point.

Real Sport did a story on AAS and said there has never been a death directly connected to them when it comes to adult men! I will try to find the link to it. AND HE IS NOT EVEN TALKING AAS, HE IS TALKING HRT?!?!?!?

[cmax]

Kale and Spyke, I was totally about to put this doctor's head through the wall he had a very condescending tone and arrogant attitude with me.

Here are some emails from him. I won't see him again in person, because if he acts this way I will most likely kick his a$$.

He is a general practitioner. Were my questions really out of line? These emails were in response to a voicemail that he left me about my HRT program being extremely dangerous. I sent him an email and he attempted to rip apart everything I wrote him.

See below and tell me you honest opinions...

CMAX - "There is a huge difference between proper hormone replacement therapy and abusive use of anabolic steroids."

Who are you kidding? Why are you putting words into another person's mouth? Interest in Hormone Replacement Therapy in men without a known medical condition is a telltale. HRT in men is currently not a recognized condition nor treatable condition. The long term consequences are unknown but theoretically foreseeable. Short term HRT is probably safe because of short duration and short intensity. However, this is not proven, nor is this person probably going to be under medical supervision for side effects to be monitored. Unless there is a compelling reason to justify the risks, this is all elective treatment without a medical indication.

Sloppy thinking leads to sloppy use of evidence. Your claims are really unsupported. Here,

1) "CMAX -...HRT programs have been FDA approved for many years."

Please provide the correct study which supports your wild speculations and dreams of understanding. I will discount any therapeutic use exemptions for accepted and recognized health conditions. Lance Armstrong, for example, had testicular cancer which necessitated remove, so HRT is medically indicated. That is not the indication under discussion.

2) "CMAX -...I know that many doctors do not know about Male Hormone Replacement therapy and feel that HRT should be limited to Woman and not men, but this is a very erroneous way of thinking."

This lacks any persuasive capability and hints at desperation. Isn't this claim an oxymoron? Majority professional opinion holds one position, yet you claim specialized knowledge and hold an opposing POV. BTW many professional do indeed know about male HRT, but don't practice it.


3) "CMAX - The men in these programs due have a known medical condition: HYPOGONADISM. This conditions causes them to have low energy, low sex drive, erectile dysfunction, depression, mood disorders, and loss of memory."

HRT for known medical conditions fall into a different category. These are accepted medical protocols. HRT for the off label use under discussion is not. Further, HRT under medical use has a known side effect profile which prevents liability. Treating a low number is an off label use. It does not carry such protection.

The ease at which you state misinformation or disinformation is really amazing. Sloppy thinking without attention to details imo. First, you cannot distinguish between hormone therapy (HT) and hormone replacement therapy (HRT). The distinction is very clear. That is what got my goat previously. The correction was mentioned but ignored. HT is using hormones to treat a recognized medical condition. HRT specifically refers to treating women in the main. Whenever HRT is used in references to male treatment, a known medical condition has already required surgical removal of endocrine tissue to cause a deficiency. Nothing in this email specifically mentioned that you underwent a medical procedure which necessitated HRT--hint, it is replacing hormones as therapy. Secondly, a uro or endo person in the Bay Area will work you up for uro and endo problems. This is a great way to rule out medical problems, but I suspect that was not your intention. You were, imo, suggesting local uro/endos would treat you for hormone therapy which may or may not be true without an underlying medical condition. They most certainly will not "treat a number" by prescribing treatment with hormones for the indications you suggest.

WTF is wrong with this guy. I have a prescription for HRT from one of the top endocrinologists in San Francisco. It is covered by my insurance as well so does his ranting rhetoric make sense or am I the one who's totally off based here?

I kept telling him. I am not talking about treating a number, I am talking about treat the following symptoms: low energy, low sex drive, erectile dysfunction, depression, mood disorders, and loss of memory. IMO it's like a doctor that won't prescribe anti-depressants or pain killers because it "does NOT treat a KNOWN medical condition". It just fixes the symptoms.

[Kale]

Kale and Spyke, I was totally about to put this doctor's head through the wall he had a very condescending tone and arrogant attitude with me.

Here are some emails from him. I won't see him again in person, because if he acts this way I will most likely kick his a$$.

He is a general practitioner. Were my questions really out of line? These emails were in response to a voicemail that he left me about my HRT program being extremely dangerous. I sent him an email and he attempted to rip apart everything I wrote him.

See below and tell me you honest opinions...



WTF is wrong with this guy. I have a prescription for HRT from one of the top endocrinologists in San Francisco. It is covered by my insurance as well so does his ranting rhetoric make sense or am I the one who's totally off based here?

What an arrogant cvnt !!! The fvcker is lucky he isnt my Dr

[Spyke]

What a f-ing tool. I guess he is saying the only men who should be on HRT are guys who have had their nuts cut off? He seems to care more about liability then helping a patient.

Go to the Androgel website and it says it is FDA approved for hypogonadism. So how is that off lable use? Injectable test is the same thing as androgel, just a different delivery method.

I like how stupid he was when he answered your #3. He said HRT for a known medical condition is a different story, yet never really says if hypogonadism is a medical condition in his opinion. Talk about sloppy thinking.

When I was first diagnosed by my general doc referred me to an endo because putting together a program was a little out of his comfort zone but stated "You need to be on some kind of testosterone replacement program".

Would you PLEASE email him the following question and post his answer!?!?

Why would you put a man who just had his testes removed on a test replacement program? What would be the reason then, not to put a man on a similar program if he still has his testes but they produce little or no testosterone?

Love to see his answer!

[bringndaheat]

What a ass puppet!!!...... I would have broke him in half. But thats me..... coming off test. BTW about the topic of Test cyp vs. test prop. My levels go up and down waaaayyyy to much on test prop. gets me strong fast but makes me way to moody. Not good to stablize a person in HRT.

What are you guy's thoughts on HRT for anti-aging use..... That is why I am on it

[Kale]

What a ass puppet!!!...... I would have broke him in half. But thats me..... coming off test. BTW about the topic of Test cyp vs. test prop. My levels go up and down waaaayyyy to much on test prop. gets me strong fast but makes me way to moody. Not good to stablize a person in HRT.

What are you guy's thoughts on HRT for anti-aging use..... That is why I am on it:)

All for it, thats why I am on it as well. I am 51

[Spyke]

HRT sucks to be honest with you. I would not be on it if I did not have a medical condition but since I do, I am glad it is available.

Your program is not really what I would consider a HRT program. To me it looks like more of a cycle of AAS. In your case you have lost alot of weight and made some great gains so it worked out well for you. I think you should finish your cycle and do a proper PCT and get off everything if you dont have a medical reason to be on.

You are too young to be on a true anti aging program IMO. That is for people in their 50's and older. They can't stop the aging process but they can add some more "life" to your remaining years.

[cmax]

Spyke I emailed your questions to my doctor. I will post his reply.

If anything it will be fun to fvck with this guy with a little help from you all.

[zaggahamma]

Kale and Spyke, I was totally about to put this doctor's head through the wall he had a very condescending tone and arrogant attitude with me.

Here are some emails from him. I won't see him again in person, because if he acts this way I will most likely kick his a$$.

He is a general practitioner. Were my questions really out of line? These emails were in response to a voicemail that he left me about my HRT program being extremely dangerous. I sent him an email and he attempted to rip apart everything I wrote him.

See below and tell me you honest opinions...




WTF is wrong with this guy. I have a prescription for HRT from one of the top endocrinologists in San Francisco. It is covered by my insurance as well so does his ranting rhetoric make sense or am I the one who's totally off based here?

I kept telling him. I am not talking about treating a number, I am talking about treat the following symptoms: low energy, low sex drive, erectile dysfunction, depression, mood disorders, and loss of memory. IMO it's like a doctor that won't prescribe anti-depressants or pain killers because it "does NOT treat a KNOWN medical condition". It just fixes the symptoms.

His arrogance is par for the course but I can't believe he doesn't know that TRT(HRT)(for men also) is becoming mainstream...I'm suprised he is providing such a debate.