Impressive forum! Thanx for having me!

[n2ojones]

Hello,

My name is Jones and I must say I am bit overwhelmed by the knowledge of this forum's members. VERY impressive, slightly intimidating.

I hope you don't mind offering some input while I use this thread to monitor/track my progress.

I am 47, pretty good health but about 10 lbs too fat at 5'10" 190.

I have lifted most of my life with a 1 rep max of 405 (!) in '97. I was lifting 225 26 times and weighed a solid 220 with a 31" waist.

That was then...

in '99 I blew out my back doing bent over rows..too much weight, poor form, you know the rest.

Not being able to lift heavy I slumped into a mild depression..maybe it was just a funk... but I was definately bummed. I stayed at 220 but it was distributed quite differently, my waistline grew to 38" and I lost alotta' muscle.

2 crap surgeries later and I am tired of looking and feeling like sh*t. My back is about 70% and I know better than to ever lift (heavy) again.

I have lost 30-40 lbs of fat and have added about 5-10 lbs of muscle. Basically just protien shakes, creatine, cardio, high-reps and no beer. It had to go.

My doctor, impressed with my fortitude, has dialed me into what he calls a "superman package". I am awaiting this now and it includes a thyroid drug (not yet sure of the name), A Test DHEA solution, pregnenalone, DHEA and melatonin.

I have been natty for the majority of my career though I did dabble in some primobolin and Winstrol while in Thailand several years ago. The results were not so great and I got bitch tits...though I understand that should not have happened(!?). I had that surgically repaired.

I just returned from another 3 months in the Kingdom and did wayyyyyy too little Andriol during that time.. Took the advice of the pharmacist and ran with a measley 240 mgs per day....on an empty stomach. It may have had a placebo effect becasue I felt pretty darn good until finding this forum and learning that was a rather insignificant dosage.

Anyway...that's me and I hope I can eventually contribute to this fine forum. I will keep my mouth shut until that time.

Any insight will be greatly appreciated and I Thank you in advance.

Just curious if anyone can give me an insider's head's up on this package.

[harveyjblch]

Welcome bro.....

[Spyke]

Sounds like he is talking about thyroid armour? The rest of his package sounds like GNC type stuff. DHEA can raise test a bit who knows about the rest....

[n2ojones]

GNC??? Thanx for the reply but please tell me you're kidding. What about the Test solution? He was going to give me a cream, I told him I wanted the injectible and he thought the "solution" (a liguid?) would be better to start. I think he said 1 cc twice a day. Again, I am waiting for the actual goods to arrive (from Florida) so I am a bit vague and perhaps should have waited to start this thread. But thanks for the welcome (guys) just the same.

[jeepman06]

Welcome to the board...

[n2ojones]

Thanx, Jeepman. I certainly see I have alot of great info to dig thru in here. Good stuff.

[zaggahamma]

welcome and sorry to hear about your injury

very impressive what you were pushing before and equally impressive your comeback thus far

i did not see where your doctor tested your hormone levels before this superman package prescription....did he test for your test, estrogen, dhea, cortisol, igf, etc. levels?

wish you the best on your comeback trail

[Spyke]

GNC??? Thanx for the reply but please tell me you're kidding. What about the Test solution? He was going to give me a cream, I told him I wanted the injectible and he thought the "solution" (a liguid?) would be better to start. I think he said 1 cc twice a day. Again, I am waiting for the actual goods to arrive (from Florida) so I am a bit vague and perhaps should have waited to start this thread. But thanks for the welcome (guys) just the same.

DHEA and Melatonin are available at GNC. I have no idea what he means by a test solution, maybe it is some kind of androgel type product but it could be some BS tribulis thing (also from GNC). The fact that this package includes no anti e's kinda tells me that there is not much to it. What is he charging for it???

It is great that the doc is working with you but I think bloodwork should be done before beginning anything. Why start DHEA if your DHEA levels are not low? Have your test levels checked too.

Good luck man. Hope this helps a bit.

[n2ojones]

Thanks so much, JPK and Spyke.

We did some blood work several months ago. But quite frankly, I'd be surprised if this doctor used those results as criteria in prescribing this particular package. Yeah, I know.

I did not want to challenge him too much because I was grateful for the scrip....now I'm not so sure.

I am paying around $170 for the above, not including the thyroid med which my insurance will cover.

I guess I will just play it day by day, I'm obviously excited about getting back on track and don't want to hit another plateau but my expectations are not sky-high, either. Lose 10 while gaining 10 and I would be right where I want to be.

Thanks again.

[zaggahamma]

Thanks so much, JPK and Spyke.

We did some blood work several months ago. But quite frankly, I'd be surprised if this doctor used those results as criteria in prescribing this particular package. Yeah, I know.

I did not want to challenge him too much because I was grateful for the scrip....now I'm not so sure.

I am paying around $170 for the above, not including the thyroid med which my insurance will cover.

I guess I will just play it day by day, I'm obviously excited about getting back on track and don't want to hit another plateau but my expectations are not sky-high, either. Lose 10 while gaining 10 and I would be right where I want to be.

Thanks again.

good game pan and yes i know what you mean by being grateful for any relief or RX from doctors in this field but IMO, you definately want to play a bigger role in your health and know where your levels are and ask questions and you can learn from our experiences here

take care

[Kale]

Dude before you start the DHEA make sure you get a PSA blood test down. That will check on the state of your Prostate. I have done a lot of research and DHEA is suspected of being a possible cause for Prostate issues, such as enlargement and Cancer

[n2ojones]

Thanks for the tips guys.

I did have that damn finger up the *** thing happen to me, and that, with my bloodwork, showed "normal enlargement" for a guy my age.

Apparently it was not as dangerously large as the finger itself.

I will indeed get pro-active and I appreciate the info and offer of future assistance.

[zaggahamma]

Thanks for the tips guys.

I did have that damn finger up the *** thing happen to me, and that, with my bloodwork, showed "normal enlargement" for a guy my age.

Apparently it was not as dangerously large as the finger itself.

I will indeed get pro-active and I appreciate the info and offer of future assistance.

Agreed....I'm still in therapy over my last DRE

take care

[Spyke]

Dude before you start the DHEA make sure you get a PSA blood test down. That will check on the state of your Prostate. I have done a lot of research and DHEA is suspected of being a possible cause for Prostate issues, such as enlargement and Cancer

REALLY listen to Kale on this one! He has been down this road and knows what he is talking about.

When you find out exactly what he sold you, let us know. I would like to find out what is going on here...

[n2ojones]

Thanks again, guys and I am now in possesion of the shiz. I have:

100 ccs of testosterone 20% DHEA liguid. Instructions advise an application of 1 cc twice per day on the forearm. The(pointless) syringes, used to draw the product from the bottle, show only "ml"... Anyone know how many "ml" to a CC?

I also have:

150 mg (30 count) DHEA capsules , advised to take one per day.

200 mg capsules of pregnenlone (30 count) 1 per day

and

6 mg melatonin caps to be taken once per day at bedtime.

I have yet to pick up the thyroid meds as it was apparently not yet called in but I will get tomorrow.

I imagine this is all pretty mild, as pointed out thru-out this thread, but it is all I have.

\It looks to me like I have more than a months supply of the test as I have 100 ccs and scheduled to take 2 ccs per day.
Shoul I go with 1+ ccs instead?

I am REALLY interested in hearing what you guys have to say about this. Like I said..its all i have, but it's a start. I would also appreciate it if someone could tell me how many MLs make a CC. Kinda weak on the directions, I must say.

Thanks to all.

[zaggahamma]

well the ml and the cc is an easy one...they are the same

as far as taking more than you are prescribed..well...IMO, there's no hurry to do that...you mentioned feeling like shiat so maybe you need a little boost and you did mention already making body composition changes to the better

still haven't seen what bloodwork tests and levels were....so depending on what your optimum levels are you can start out slow and go from there...you can always add....i tried low dose at first and felt better and noticed gains but still felt the need to add more and i did

hope you feel better bro

[n2ojones]

Hey Jpkman...I appreciate the advice and will definately take it slow. Other than the back injury, I have always had excellent health and my glass has always been half-full.

I definately should not have gained the excess fat but in all honesty....after so MANY years of egg whites, turkey breasts, tuna and broccoli..it was actually kinda' fun and I doubt I would do things (too) differently if offered the chance.

You know how it is. People used to look at the meals I'd cart around and be like "you actually live on that crap"? Like most of us, I deprived myself to extremes. Only in the past few years have I eaten something...because it tasted good. That was never even a thought before the injury. I probably went 15 years without a taste of ice cream...or even a beer.

Sadly, I will leave my taste buds with nothing but fond memories becayse it is time to get back to that obsessive being I used to be, LOL.

So...this package I've described above....do you think I will actually get more from it than from just solid diet and training?

I cannot lift heavy again...but I will put in 5 intense work-outs per week (high reps and extra cardio) while consuming lots of protien (probably 250 grs per day) and lots of water.

The GNC comment has me wondering if I will see additional gains or not while using this stuff. I'd just as soon not... if I won't. Thanks again and I hope you this finds you well.

[zaggahamma]

Hey Jpkman...I appreciate the advice and will definately take it slow. Other than the back injury, I have always had excellent health and my glass has always been half-full.

I definately should not have gained the excess fat but in all honesty....after so MANY years of egg whites, turkey breasts, tuna and broccoli..it was actually kinda' fun and I doubt I would do things (too) differently if offered the chance.

You know how it is. People used to look at the meals I'd cart around and be like "you actually live on that crap"? Like most of us, I deprived myself to extremes. Only in the past few years have I eaten something...because it tasted good. That was never even a thought before the injury. I probably went 15 years without a taste of ice cream...or even a beer.

Sadly, I will leave my taste buds with nothing but fond memories becayse it is time to get back to that obsessive being I used to be, LOL.

So...this package I've described above....do you think I will actually get more from it than from just solid diet and training?

I cannot lift heavy again...but I will put in 5 intense work-outs per week (high reps and extra cardio) while consuming lots of protien (probably 250 grs per day) and lots of water.

The GNC comment has me wondering if I will see additional gains or not while using this stuff. I'd just as soon not... if I won't. Thanks again and I hope you this finds you well.

NP...i keep thinking that I don't know your hormone levels which play a big role of course...where the gel did get me off to a good start might not be beneficial to one with already high normal levels because taking the gel/cream will shut those levels or that production down

example: for me, my total test level was 275-298 and i needed to take
2 - 5mg packets of gel ED to get me to 700 something and if your level is already around 700 then IMO taking the cream would be a waste.

[fbcoach]

Hey there N2o,
Just wanted to put my 2 cents (may be all it's worth in before off to work. You are the same age as myself, and l also had spinal surgery (cervical lamenectomy). DEFINITELY get your pre-bloodwork done before doing anything. This will give you and your Doc and future Docs (lol) a baseline to work from. The pregnenalone is HCG and used to keep the boys nice and plump. I believe it was Jpkman that mentioned about not having an AI. You will need this eventually at some point. Anyway, listen to these particular board members, they have been exactly where you and I are at, and are a major source of info and support. I will be real interested in your progress. Anyway, good luck.

[n2ojones]

Thanks again, jkp..I appreciate your honesty and putting thins into layman's terms. Is Al the thyroid meds? I know, I know..."keep reading" and I have been. There's just so much information! As for the bloodwork; bloodwork was done but I do nor personally know (this time) my results and/or levels. I was not aware that i would be given anything at that time so really just wanted to know that i was OK (prostate, etc) I am hoping my doctor DID use my test resuls in making the decision to put me on this program. It's a tricky situation (this time) the guy is VERY busy and I do not want to look a gift horse in the mouth. Next time (soon) I will test again and have all relevant numbers. Thanks again, you da' man!

FBcoach...I thank you as well for acknowedging my less than fact-filled line of questioning. I will definatelyfollow your advice and pay close attention to the members and situation at hand. I hope your surgery was successful and you find the strength to NOT rush things. One of my many intitial mistakes.

BTW guys, IF I have been prescribed the proper stuff....should this help with my gains? Basically I am looking for a yes answer(for the placebo affect) but the truth would probably work too.

Thanks again and I will keep reading!

[zaggahamma]

Thanks again, jkp..I appreciate your honesty and putting thins into layman's terms. Is Al the thyroid meds? I know, I know..."keep reading" and I have been. There's just so much information! As for the bloodwork; bloodwork was done but I do nor personally know (this time) my results and/or levels. I was not aware that i would be given anything at that time so really just wanted to know that i was OK (prostate, etc) I am hoping my doctor DID use my test resuls in making the decision to put me on this program. It's a tricky situation (this time) the guy is VERY busy and I do not want to look a gift horse in the mouth. Next time (soon) I will test again and have all relevant numbers. Thanks again, you da' man!

FBcoach...I thank you as well for acknowedging my less than fact-filled line of questioning. I will definatelyfollow your advice and pay close attention to the members and situation at hand. I hope your surgery was successful and you find the strength to NOT rush things. One of my many intitial mistakes.

BTW guys, IF I have been prescribed the proper stuff....should this help with my gains? Basically I am looking for a yes answer(for the placebo affect) but the truth would probably work too.

Thanks again and I will keep reading!

funny post (placebo affect)....don't think you need that bro...you already said you are gettin it back and we admire those that work hard especially after adversity...for all it's worth if your levels are low then the cream is going to help...if not, i again say not so much and your other ? AI is for combatting estrogen levels which are necessary for a lot of ppl that take generous doses of test...i didn't need it until i went on injects...never with androgel even at 15mg ED doses

once again...hope you get back or as close to where you were b4 your accident

keep us posted

[fbcoach]

N2O,
My surgery was successful in opening up my spinal cord and preventing paralysis, but have had chronic pain ever since (over 15 years). And like you, I started back training waaaayyyy too soon. I was doing deadlifts while wearing a neck brace..lol Anyway, I see some similarities in our situations. I just started my HRT, so I don't want to say too much about it yet. I don't want this to sound conceited or anything, but part of my problems with my Doc and supporters, is I look so damn healthy (on the outside), but my drive, ambition, motivation, mood, and energy level had declined dramatically in the past year. At this point in my therapy (about 2 weeks), I see big differences. In fact, I just went for an interview, for a high profile Division I school. I know I will have to be at the top of my game to handle this responsibility. As for workouts, the pumps are great..strength gains are increasing, probably due to the placebo effect at this point..lol (thought Jpkman would get a kick out of that Sorry, enough about me. My suggestion would be, if the gel isn't working, maybe your Doc will switch you to testosterone enanthate injections. Make sure he runs a male sensitive estrogen test. Ask for (male sensitive). Estrogen can wreak havoc on your moods, energy, body comp., etc. Also, you want to make sure your thyroid AND adrenals are functioning optimally. From what I have been reading, you want your thyroid and adrenals to function at their best..if they are, you may not even need HRT, or maybe just an AI (aromatase inhibitor) to lower estrogen and raise your natural Testosterone . My last suggestion is to look at some other sites and read up as much as you can. I'm not sure if you're allowed to mention other sites on here or not. If you want I will PM them to you, or you can just find them online. Good luck with your "Superman Package", and let us know how it goes.

[zaggahamma]

N2O,
My surgery was successful in opening up my spinal cord and preventing paralysis, but have had chronic pain ever since (over 15 years). And like you, I started back training waaaayyyy too soon. I was doing deadlifts while wearing a neck brace..lol Anyway, I see some similarities in our situations. I just started my HRT, so I don't want to say too much about it yet. I don't want this to sound conceited or anything, but part of my problems with my Doc and supporters, is I look so damn healthy (on the outside), but my drive, ambition, motivation, mood, and energy level had declined dramatically in the past year. At this point in my therapy (about 2 weeks), I see big differences. In fact, I just went for an interview, for a high profile Division I school. I know I will have to be at the top of my game to handle this responsibility. As for workouts, the pumps are great..strength gains are increasing, probably due to the placebo effect at this point..lol (thought Jpkman would get a kick out of that Sorry, enough about me. My suggestion would be, if the gel isn't working, maybe your Doc will switch you to testosterone enanthate injections. Make sure he runs a male sensitive estrogen test. Ask for (male sensitive). Estrogen can wreak havoc on your moods, energy, body comp., etc. Also, you want to make sure your thyroid AND adrenals are functioning optimally. From what I have been reading, you want your thyroid and adrenals to function at their best..if they are, you may not even need HRT, or maybe just an AI (aromatase inhibitor) to lower estrogen and raise your natural Testosterone. My last suggestion is to look at some other sites and read up as much as you can. I'm not sure if you're allowed to mention other sites on here or not. If you want I will PM them to you, or you can just find them online. Good luck with your "Superman Package", and let us know how it goes.

Excellent advice...my doc actually mentioned going on an AI only therapy because his estradial is a bit high even though his test is decent...

and i think i'm going to go back over my old bloodwork and look at my thyroid numbers again...i seem more and more ppl being treated with thyroid meds with their HRT...even though the test and AI has done wonders for me thus far, i feel i am reaching another plateau somehow with my metabolism.

and yes fbcoach...glad you're doing well so far...definately pm with those extra sites and great advice

[fbcoach]

Jpkman,
Just sent you 2 PMs..also, I have read a few studies about arimidex raising natural test levels. In the studies, the participants were taking 1mg of Arimidex daily. While lowering estrogen, it doubled and even tripled some participiants natural test levels. However, I would let your Doc know and run the proper blood tests before doing anything. If I remember correctly, your natural estrogen levels were low before HRT....right? Too low can be just as bad as too high in some cases.

[zaggahamma]

Jpkman,
Just sent you 2 PMs..also, I have read a few studies about arimidex raising natural test levels. In the studies, the participants were taking 1mg of Arimidex daily. While lowering estrogen, it doubled and even tripled some participiants natural test levels. However, I would let your Doc know and run the proper blood tests before doing anything. If I remember correctly, your natural estrogen levels were low before HRT....right? Too low can be just as bad as too high in some cases.

yes also good advice...my estro levels were'nt tested until a few weeks into TRT on androgel ...they were low yes (around 19) but after injects (which was a big jump in dose), the went way up to as far as 78...i got on 'dex asap and the next estro test was a few months later after being on test cyp 300mg EW and 'dex 1mg ED...i took 17 days off and did bloodwork and estro came back at 41....so, i've been on 1mg ED since then feeling that the 41 was still a little high...i have been feeling good with these doses (mood, libido, was losing BF and weight along with gaining or maintaining strength depending on the body part.

I've been wanting to do more blood right in the middle of my dosing to get another idea where i'm at again because i'm not due to test again until April...I guess that's not too too far away and since I've been feeling ok, my guess is that estro isn't too low. I would get blood work every 2 weeks if i could.

thanks FB

[n2ojones]

Very informative stuff in here (at least for this newb!). I thank those that took the time to contribute.

FBcoach....WOW, divison 1! How cool is that?!?

Yes, you and I share(d) that lifting sickness. Like heroin (I'm guessing). I was only out of the hospital a few days and I was lifting, like a jackass, again. I'd wait for my GF to go to work and my bro would come over and haul some DBs upstairs from my gym.I'd roll off the bed onto the floor and curl them. Then I'd hide them under the bed. I think I visited ER a half dozen times for my efforts. Dumb and I can blame nobody other than myself for my results being less than optimum.

Happy to hear you are doing so well. No matter how optimistic, the depression is had to hide from. Fortunatel I knew myself well enough to see the signs....then ignore them.

I own my own company and i pretty much golfed with clients all day. When I was'nt golfing, I was lifting and/or doing martial arts. After the surgery, the doctors told me "no more lifting, no more golf and no more Muay Thai". I asked them..."just what the f*&k do people do"? and my question was genuine. probably the hardest thing for me was filling that void. Probably 50 hrs per week was added to my list of...nothing to do. It sucked. fortunately i found...beer. J/K. I started playing guitar and then became a sports announcer for a local radio station here in Hawaii. I started scuba diving and traveled (more) when I could. Now I feel solid enough to start back with the weights. My back hurts everyday and I am walking a tightrope but if you're not living on the egde...you're taking up too much room.

Congrats again and thanks for the informative posts. I look forward to learning more from (and about) your experience with HRT. You going to slap some post-season life into that program at Ohio state?

[fbcoach]

Very informative stuff in here (at least for this newb!). I thank those that took the time to contribute.

FBcoach....WOW, divison 1! How cool is that?!?

Yes, you and I share(d) that lifting sickness. Like heroin (I'm guessing). I was only out of the hospital a few days and I was lifting, like a jackass, again. I'd wait for my GF to go to work and my bro would come over and haul some DBs upstairs from my gym.I'd roll off the bed onto the floor and curl them. Then I'd hide them under the bed. I think I visited ER a half dozen times for my efforts. Dumb and I can blame nobody other than myself for my results being less than optimum.

Happy to hear you are doing so well. No matter how optimistic, the depression is had to hide from. Fortunatel I knew myself well enough to see the signs....then ignore them.

I own my own company and i pretty much golfed with clients all day. When I was'nt golfing, I was lifting and/or doing martial arts. After the surgery, the doctors told me "no more lifting, no more golf and no more Muay Thai". I asked them..."just what the f*&k do people do"? and my question was genuine. probably the hardest thing for me was filling that void. Probably 50 hrs per week was added to my list of...nothing to do. It sucked. fortunately i found...beer. J/K. I started playing guitar and then became a sports announcer for a local radio station here in Hawaii. I started scuba diving and traveled (more) when I could. Now I feel solid enough to start back with the weights. My back hurts everyday and I am walking a tightrope but if you're not living on the egde...you're taking up too much room.

Congrats again and thanks for the informative posts. I look forward to learning more from (and about) your experience with HRT. You going to slap some post-season life into that program at Ohio state?

Actually..I am a Florida fan. I had the privilege of coaching Percy Harvin (#8). Funny you mentioned training in Muay Thai..I do the same. I am going to wait to post a thread on my experience until after I can evaluate my situation objectively, along with bloodwork. I can say that it has improved my recovery times. Keep searching for answers and don't give up. They're out there.

[n2ojones]

well the ml and the cc is an easy one...they are the same

as far as taking more than you are prescribed..well...IMO, there's no hurry to do that...you mentioned feeling like shiat so maybe you need a little boost and you did mention already making body composition changes to the better

still haven't seen what bloodwork tests and levels were....so depending on what your optimum levels are you can start out slow and go from there...you can always add....i tried low dose at first and felt better and noticed gains but still felt the need to add more and i did

hope you feel better bro

Well guys...it looks as though I have messed this experiment up already. Geeeez, Here's what I have done:

I posed the question...how many ml to a cc? and jpkman was so kind as to furnish the above answer. So...I look at the barrel of the syringe and I see the 01 ml line. For the past several days,actually from day 1, I have been applying that amount to the inside of my forearm. Such a tiny amount andI was thinking..man, this stuff must be potent!

Well...today I start thinking that 100 cc bottle is going to last me a heck of a long time. So I start to wonder...and sure enough, the ENTIRE barrel-full would equal 1CC!!! Can this be right? That's a lot of liguid and I ended up sloshing both forearms with the sticky liguid to use the entire contents of the syringe.

It seems like maybe you guys are not overly familiar with this product and I wonder if it's new. It is testerone and says 20% DHEA on the bottle. Not much more. I asked for injectibles siting the need to not smear a gel on my arms (Girfriend etc) and the pharmacist said...that is why I am sending the liguid, it dries quicker.But this stuff is still sticky after2 hours.I wonder how longI need to leavethe residue on or if I can wash it off after an hour. Any help would be greatly appreciated, as always.

Thanx,

Jones