I have a feeling I will be on HRT soon so I figured I'd get some advice

**Subotai** · 12-02-2009, 03:47 PM

I am a 20 year old, 5'9 215 pound male at about 14% bodyfat.
I am strong, I compete in powerlifting and do very well.
I have a full beard, very masculine features and am even showing decent male pattern baldness.

But for the past two years my hormone panel has been bad... and everything under the skin is going poorly too. My attentional focus has been off, memory has been poor. No labido... constantly angry, plus I get terrible headaches which I believe are related.

I can't remember off the top of my head the other numbers, but my last 3 Total test results have been 215, 199, and 150ng/ml (Range 240-800)
I have an appointment to see an Endo set up, but given how young I am and my aspirations to continue to be compeditive in powerlifting i am hoping to get set up quickly in this.
Here is what I figure will happen:
I go in, he tells me to take another blood test... I have to wait a whole month to get another appt in which my numbers will still be low, but he will look at me and say I must be fine.

I think I need advice on ways to convince the endo to actually give me help. I am hoping to try to see if a HCG or HCG/Clomid protocol can help me first before taking shots

**tboney** · 12-02-2009, 03:49 PM

Have you cycled before?

**Subotai** · 12-02-2009, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by tboney

Have you cycled before?

Yes.
Made dumb decisions in highschool
Andro as a freshman
4 cycles of Superdrol at 30mg/day as a junior and senior (6-oxo was my pct to add to things ha)

Took Nolva about a year ago to try and self-medicate 40/40/20/20 but it did not appear to work (oh, this wasn't for the low test, I also have some extremely painful but not extremely visible gyno)

**tboney** · 12-02-2009, 03:59 PM

hmm? At 20 years old you want to make damn sure you do everything to recover before you commit yourself to hrt forever. Frankly, if you level with your doc and he doesnt put you on some kind of a recovery protocal, fire him! Go find a doc that will. Its possible that you wont recover. However you can have a completely normal life on trt!

**Subotai** · 12-02-2009, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by tboney

hmm? At 20 years old you want to make damn sure you do everything to recover before you commit yourself to hrt forever. Frankly, if you level with your doc and he doesnt put you on some kind of a recovery protocal, fire him! Go find a doc that will. Its possible that you wont recover. However you can have a completely normal life on trt!

I have no issues with being on HRT, beyond the fact that I don't want to be failing drug tests in meets and I hear its harder to conceive a kid which is probably something i want to do.

But the issue is just that I look fine, I'm scared every doctor will just say no. Getting a new one sounds easy but I called 20 doctors yesterday and every one of them it was at least a month's wait. So if I have to go through 5-6 before I find someone willing to help me thats 5 probable new blood tests and 5 months of waiting.
One of my main questions is.... are there any trigger words I can use to get help? Should I shave my face really well and wear a shirt that makes me look fat?
Thanks for the advice thus far though man!

**EZ E** · 12-02-2009, 04:29 PM

At 20 you don't want to be on TRT if you can avoid it, like you said you might want kids someday. In high school you made dumb decisions...at 20 you still make dumb decisions. Take the advice and try to get your test levels restored.

**Subotai** · 12-02-2009, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by EZ E

At 20 you don't want to be on TRT if you can avoid it, like you said you might want kids someday. In high school you made dumb decisions...at 20 you still make dumb decisions. Take the advice and try to get your test levels restored.

I know I don't want to go on. I would like to recieve some sort of HCG protocol but my isssues aren't in choosing what i want done. Its in actually finding a way to get an Endo to help a 20 year old with no visible signs of hormonal issues besides male pattern baldness and gyno (neither of which would really warrant HCG would they?) out. I'm scared they will assume I am planning an upcoming test cycle and want HCG and Clomid on hand for pct

I think you must have misunderstood my above post: By saying I have no issue with going on HRT that doesn't mean I want to. It means that if all else fails I will accept that and am not worried about needles or the stigma of being an HRT patient.

**tboney** · 12-02-2009, 06:31 PM

You might want to try some of the trt, hrt,antiaging clinics. They are more willing.

**zaggahamma** · 12-02-2009, 07:43 PM

agree with above if you dont have insurance and/or would like to add other compounds like deca to your protocol at some time and you wont have to worry about using keywords but if you stay with endo i think showing your last 3 bloodwork and explaining your symptoms should be sufficient

**Subotai** · 12-02-2009, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by tboney

You might want to try some of the trt, hrt,antiaging clinics. They are more willing.

How does one go about finding these? I think I have good insurance to help me out

**EZ E** · 12-02-2009, 09:32 PM

Your lab work alone should be enough to get an endo to try to jump start you, especially if you come clean about your past steroid use . Are you in the States?

**Subotai** · 12-02-2009, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by EZ E

Your lab work alone should be enough to get an endo to try to jump start you, especially if you come clean about your past steroid use. Are you in the States?

Yeah DC metro area. I know atleast my last test only has total testosterone though

no estradiol or prolactin progesterone free test ect. This is one of the main reasons I am scared that I'll be forced to take another. I may just go and get a full hormone panel done out of my own pocket before hand to bring him a bettter picture

**Spyke** · 12-02-2009, 10:18 PM

subotai, PM me if you want. I have a Dr who is one of the very few or maybe the only Dr who "restarts" guys who have been shut down and is also one of the top HRT Drs in the world. He would be a road trip for you from DC but well worth it in my opinion.....

**Subotai** · 12-03-2009, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Spyke

subotai, PM me if you want. I have a Dr who is one of the very few or maybe the only Dr who "restarts" guys who have been shut down and is also one of the top HRT Drs in the world. He would be a road trip for you from DC but well worth it in my opinion.....

Thanks man PM sent

**Subotai** · 12-07-2009, 03:41 PM

How much do most of you guys have to pay for HCG and others with your insurance? I'm thinking that I may just want to go ahead and try to do my own thing given I can't find anyone to give me an appointment

**Subotai** · 12-19-2009, 12:06 PM

I just found a blood test from August of 08
I was at:
Total test 188ng/dl (range 241-827)
TSH- 1.9 (range .35 to 5.5)
It says "adult TSH ceoncetrations below 5.5 do not rule out presense of sublclinical hypothryroidism

Will this extra evidence give me a better shot at getting an attempt at an HCG /Clomid restart? I've also been finding every study I can

**xbustyouupx** · 12-19-2009, 03:11 PM

Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't hcg shutdown lh production?

Since hcg mimics lh (causing the testes to produce endogenous test) your body will quit producing its own lh, so if you quit hcg you may end up with lower endogenous testosterone levels than you had to begin with.

This may be solved with cycling ... or I might be dead wrong (high probability).

**Subotai** · 12-20-2009, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by xbustyouupx

Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't hcg shutdown lh production?

Since hcg mimics lh (causing the testes to produce endogenous test) your body will quit producing its own lh, so if you quit hcg you may end up with lower endogenous testosterone levels than you had to begin with.

This may be solved with cycling ... or I might be dead wrong (high probability).

From what I've read, hcg can cause a perminate issues if dosage is too high. Most of the guys I assosiate with have ran it for pct though, ad it seems to have no real negative effects if dosed properly

**PO OFFICER** · 12-20-2009, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Subotai

Yes.
Made dumb decisions in highschool
Andro as a freshman
4 cycles of Superdrol at 30mg/day as a junior and senior (6-oxo was my pct to add to things ha)

Took Nolva about a year ago to try and self-medicate 40/40/20/20 but it did not appear to work (oh, this wasn't for the low test, I also have some extremely painful but not extremely visible gyno)

So you used andropen ? That sucks

!
When I was a freshman (14 years old haha) I did an anavar cycle. I regret it now thinking about how stupid I was to do it, but I was lucky enought and my pct was semi solid so I recovered fine.

Best of luck
PO

**Subotai** · 12-20-2009, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by PO OFFICER

So you used andropen ? That sucks

!
When I was a freshman (14 years old haha) I did an anavar cycle. I regret it now thinking about how stupid I was to do it, but I was lucky enought and my pct was semi solid so I recovered fine.

Best of luck
PO

No that probably would have been better! I used the old andro 100 poppers. The old pro-hormone
Thanks man for the kind wishes, I'm gonna go in with a hundred pages of literature to convince this endo to help me and not just say "you'll be fine on your own"

**Subotai** · 12-27-2009, 09:56 PM

I have my appt tommorrow.

I'm so antsy, I had a dream last night
I walked in, and told her about my issues.
She suggested I take HCG to recover, followed by some Clomid and Nolva....but then says, "Why don't we try 12 weeks of Test therapy at 500mg a week before hand?"

Can dreams come true?

**Subotai** · 12-30-2009, 04:05 PM

I had my appt today, I came clean about absolutely everything in my past.

She seemed responsive to it, and ordered a lot of tests which is nice. It seems like she's not unwilling to help me go on HRT, although it sounded like she wouldn't perscribe me HCG

She tried to tell me its impossible to get insurance for it, but isn't it an accepted drug to treat secondary hypogonadism?

She seems to be straight by the book, so it will probably be very difficult for me to make her understand that dosing for IM test needs to be 2x a week, while most people seem to do every other.

**zaggahamma** · 12-30-2009, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Subotai

I had my appt today, I came clean about absolutely everything in my past.

She seemed responsive to it, and ordered a lot of tests which is nice. It seems like she's not unwilling to help me go on HRT, although it sounded like she wouldn't perscribe me HCG

She tried to tell me its impossible to get insurance for it, but isn't it an accepted drug to treat secondary hypogonadism?

She seems to be straight by the book, so it will probably be very difficult for me to make her understand that dosing for IM test needs to be 2x a week, while most people seem to do every other.

once injection a week i fine...just not every 2 weeks

**Subotai** · 12-31-2009, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by jpkman

once injection a week i fine...just not every 2 weeks

If I live far away from the Dr. I can probably do my own shots then right? In which case I can just split it up. I know 1 time a week isn't all that bad, but the half life is still 5-6 days for E or C

**subnet** · 12-31-2009, 12:31 PM

as jpkman said, once a week should be fine and definitely not every 2 weeks. I know there are a few here that do twice per week but it's more typical and less hassle to do once every 7 days - everybody is different of course... Hopefully you can convince your Dr. to let you self-inject.

**zaggahamma** · 12-31-2009, 03:29 PM

lot of holes in your arse to do twice a week too...wuts one or two days i've noticed NO difference in ANYTHING even waited til day 10

**Subotai** · 01-05-2010, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

lot of holes in your arse to do twice a week too...wuts one or two days i've noticed NO difference in ANYTHING even waited til day 10

I plan on being an above HRT user again in the future so thats okay

My endo took a metabolic panel, and a Thyroid panel for me. She also got a hormone panel but didn't report the findings to me.
T4, FREE, NON-DIALYSIS 1.2 0.8-1.8
TSH 1.07 0.40-4.50

These are both within normal range, but she's saying that they could be my issue, and is ordering an MRI on my Thyroid. How many rounds of testing usually occur before you can get a script for some sort of help?

**zaggahamma** · 01-05-2010, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Subotai

I plan on being an above HRT user again in the future so thats okay

My endo took a metabolic panel, and a Thyroid panel for me. She also got a hormone panel but didn't report the findings to me.
T4, FREE, NON-DIALYSIS 1.2 0.8-1.8
TSH 1.07 0.40-4.50

These are both within normal range, but she's saying that they could be my issue, and is ordering an MRI on my Thyroid. How many rounds of testing usually occur before you can get a script for some sort of help?

weird that the numbers seem fine but says "could be your issue"

**Subotai** · 01-05-2010, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

weird that the numbers seem fine but says "could be your issue"

I have reviewed your labs. Testosterone levels are low with inappropriately normal pituitary hormones. Rest of the labs including thyroid, prolactin were normal. Next step is to do a imaging of the pituitary gland and recheck testosterone along with IGF-1 and cortisol levels.

I don't know how normal can be inappropriate. She seems to be a decent doctor at heart though so I'll go along for the ride!

**zaggahamma** · 01-05-2010, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Subotai

I don't know how normal can be inappropriate. She seems to be a decent doctor at heart though so I'll go along for the ride!

yeh that doesnt make a whole lot of sense but it IS common for a mri of the pituitary before starting TRT....

**Subotai** · 01-06-2010, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by jpkman

yeh that doesnt make a whole lot of sense but it IS common for a mri of the pituitary before starting TRT....

What do they look for? Make sure it isn't just a big tumor or something?
I just had to get an IGF and Cortisol test done, is there any reason to test IGF unless considering peptide treatment?

**zaggahamma** · 01-06-2010, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Subotai

What do they look for? Make sure it isn't just a big tumor or something?
I just had to get an IGF and Cortisol test done, is there any reason to test IGF unless considering peptide treatment?

yes looking for tumor....

they did igf on me too and no way was i going to get hgh....also had cortisol tests...

just routine

**Subotai** · 01-13-2010, 06:29 AM

I've read in a few places that its almost impossible to concieve while on HRT if not using HCG .

Do people ever successfully take a break from HRT in order to have a kid? If I go on for 2-3 years and I try to come off to have a child will that greatly hurt my chances? I couldn't find any studies

**Subotai** · 01-15-2010, 02:49 PM

So I just got word from my doctor concerning my most recent wave of tests.

My MRI revealed my pituitary is normal, but I have a cyst in the back of my head and also in one of my sinus(es). This could be due to a chronic sinus infection, which apparently can explain my constant dull headache that I feel everyday. I am hopeful thats what that is.

Testosterone was 394 ng/ml, still far from optimal for a 20 year old, thats around 800-1000 but its within normal range and more than double my last test.

Free test was 92 which is I think right smack in the middle of normal range (something like 50-200)

Igf-1 normal- Which I figured I never abused any peptides

Cortisol was too high- interesting considering I had been out of school and the gym for some time before this test. I wonder how high it is when I'm trianing!

Estradiol 36 pg/ml
FSH 2.6 (1.6-8)
LH 2.7 (1.5-9.3)

Bittersweet news today, it appears I am doing better, but bottom range of normal will make it harder to get help than top range of abnormal