Test E - Feel likeI am going backwards

**buckeyes#1** · 01-21-2010, 07:03 AM

I really don't feel like my E2 is off too much, Nipples are fine, joints seem to be ok, etc. I will find out at 10am. Heading to the doctor for my followup and bloodwork results

Did you get the pregnenolone through a prescription or over the counter>?

**buckeyes#1** · 01-21-2010, 09:36 AM

Just got back from the docs. Blood results:

Estradiol - 22.1 (10-42)
Total Testosterone 364 ng/dl (300-1080)
Free Testosterone 93 pg/mL (47-244)

I asked for weekly injections of half of the current dose. He said he does not know enough about the effects to be comfortable doing that. He said he was confused on why my test is still low because he gives most ofhis patients monthly injections.

He wants me to see an endo, but didn't know who to send me to. LOL He looked through all of the hospital doctor books to see if any of them had specialties in the field. Negative. I need to hunt one down myself. Ohio State University Medical Campus has to have someone that specializes.

At least I know why I have been complaining about feeling like shit the second week. He did say that my numbers are in the normal range. What an idiot.

My numbers were better on 10G of androgel .

**ZonaDave** · 01-21-2010, 08:48 PM

you can buy pregnenolone at any health store. i got mine at The Vitamin Shoppe. i got 60 of the 30mg caps for around $8.

b-weekly shots don't work for most because of the 5-8 dys half-life. next time you meet with your doc ask him what would happen if he told his androgel patients to apply it every third day vs. everyday. i'm sure they would be experiencing the same symptoms.

most guys do well on weekly shots but most i know are on a semi-weekly shot schedule. your T is low because most of it is out of your system by the time you get your blood checked. there's not reason why your doc shouldn't go with weekly shots because you're not increasing the dose. in fact, if you shoot more frequently, you most often have to reduce your dose.

**buckeyes#1** · 01-22-2010, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by ZonaDave

you can buy pregnenolone at any health store. i got mine at The Vitamin Shoppe. i got 60 of the 30mg caps for around $8.

b-weekly shots don't work for most because of the 5-8 dys half-life. next time you meet with your doc ask him what would happen if he told his androgel patients to apply it every third day vs. everyday. i'm sure they would be experiencing the same symptoms.

most guys do well on weekly shots but most i know are on a semi-weekly shot schedule. your T is low because most of it is out of your system by the time you get your blood checked. there's not reason why your doc shouldn't go with weekly shots because you're not increasing the dose. in fact, if you shoot more frequently, you most often have to reduce your dose.

Since my GP won't be treating me, I have decided I will be self administering the injections until I can get in to see the Endo at OSU. I will be doing one every 3.5 days of 50mg. I will still be taking in the same dosage, but just spreading it out over the two weeks.

I called endocrinology department at OSU yesterday to get a referral. I am supposed to have a name today when I call. At taht point I will drive up there deliver my past blood work in person and try to get some answers in person before I have an appointment and shell out another copay.

**whiteowl** · 01-22-2010, 01:54 PM

You have to be your own advocate Buckeye so don't relent. Compare what assistance my wife had during menopause vs what i went through. Night and day. Estrogen is not a controlled substance, testosterone is. Your GP has to open his books to DEA, while the endo, who makes his living prescribing HRT is used to their annual audits. Gotta stay on it. Good luck mate.

**Twist** · 01-23-2010, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by buckeyes#1

I have been on for 5 weeks. I am getting 200mg every 2 weeks. I know I need to try 100mg per week, but my doc originally wanted to give me a one shot a month. So I am making headway.

The problem is, I felt good for the first 8-9 days after my first two shots, but I have not felt any better after my third. I almost feel like they gave me a placebo. I am constantly lazy, feeling like I am glued to the coach. I worked out four days this week, but not with the same vigor.

Has anyone else experienced a regression in their feeling better?

haven't read all the posts in between because there is too much to read BUT>>>

You felt good after the first two shots because you had what little amount your body produced PLUS the added from the injections. Once your body got used to injections your body shut down completely and therefore you now have low test levels again. you need to up the dosage.

**buckeyes#1** · 01-23-2010, 09:28 AM

Do I need a script to get needs at the pharmacy or do they just sell them over the counter? I know I can order them online, but thought I would just get them when I pick up my next refill.

**zaggahamma** · 01-23-2010, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by buckeyes#1

Do I need a script to get needs at the pharmacy or do they just sell them over the counter? I know I can order them online, but thought I would just get them when I pick up my next refill.

guess u mean needles...and most pharmacies require a rx for those as well...depends on state...here in florida i need an rx

**buckeyes#1** · 01-23-2010, 06:10 PM

I just looked up the laws in Ohio and thereisnota Rx required for needles.

**zaggahamma** · 01-23-2010, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by buckeyes#1

I just looked up the laws in Ohio and thereisnota Rx required for needles.

I get 100 23 guage 1 1/2 for 19.99

**buckeyes#1** · 01-25-2010, 08:44 AM

I am trying to figure out when would be the best time to begin my new injections. I had a 200mg shot last Tuesday (1/19). I usually crash about 8-9 days after my last injection.

**Vettester** · 01-25-2010, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by buckeyes#1

I am trying to figure out when would be the best time to begin my new injections. I had a 200mg shot last Tuesday (1/19). I usually crash about 8-9 days after my last injection.

You mentioned in an earlier post that your do 50mg every 3.5 days. This post said 200mg last week ??? Did your dosage change? Truthfully, half life is going to be right around 7 or 8 days, so I can't imagine you're going through a crash phase. As far as when to take ... Once per week on the same day works for me.

**buckeyes#1** · 01-25-2010, 12:52 PM

Vetteman,
I am prescribed by my doc 200mg every two weeks. I have been going into his office and having them administer the injection. However, since he doesn't feel he can adequately treat me, I will no longer be paying to have them administer the shot. I was debating on whether to do 100mg/week or 2-50mg/week. I was wondering when I should start the lower, more frequent dose. I had my last 200mg shot on the 19th.

**buckeyes#1** · 01-25-2010, 02:01 PM

This is really beginning to suck. Called to schedule my endo appointment. First available appointment is April 9th. My doc wrote me a Rx for only 5mL of 200mg/mL Test E. I wanted to do 100mg/week, but have to look at the calendar to see if I can make it til then. So, I called up the Dr.s office and asked for them to change my Rx to a 3 month supply because of the cost savings through my insurance. His nurse informs me that he cannot do that because it is a controlled substance, but she will check with him tomorrow when she talks with him.

I am so pissed, I swear there is not a way to get treated correctly for this condition without paying out of pocket for a AA clinic.

**XLCanadian** · 01-25-2010, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

then it gets duller and duller yep youre gonna bruise....should giver the same treatment in the pooper

cracked me the eff up!!! Thanks for the laugh! LOL

**Vettester** · 01-25-2010, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by buckeyes#1

This is really beginning to suck. Called to schedule my endo appointment. First available appointment is April 9th. My doc wrote me a Rx for only 5mL of 200mg/mL Test E. I wanted to do 100mg/week, but have to look at the calendar to see if I can make it til then. So, I called up the Dr.s office and asked for them to change my Rx to a 3 month supply because of the cost savings through my insurance. His nurse informs me that he cannot do that because it is a controlled substance, but she will check with him tomorrow when she talks with him.

I am so pissed, I swear there is not a way to get treated correctly for this condition without paying out of pocket for a AA clinic.

I went through the same thing last year with an Endo. In my case, the fool tried convincing me that it was completely illegal to send a patient home with Test Cyp. Sorry you're going through this idiocy.

**buckeyes#1** · 01-25-2010, 07:37 PM

Were you able to convince him otherwise? My doc lets me keep it at home with me, but wants me to come in for every shot. I say if he can't treat me than he doesn't deserve my business of coming in to get a bi-weekly shot.

**Vettester** · 01-25-2010, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by buckeyes#1

Were you able to convince him otherwise? My doc lets me keep it at home with me, but wants me to come in for every shot. I say if he can't treat me than he doesn't deserve my business of coming in to get a bi-weekly shot.

No, there was no convincing this moron. This was about the time that I ended up going to an HRT specialist, who got me going in the right direction. For awhile, I was getting 1/2 my test (100mg) at home, and then having to go to the endo's office every week for the other 1/2 (100mg). Eventually, my primary doctor overruled the endo and sent me home with a prescription. The Endo actually fired me when I sent him some Endocrinology Journals, which basically told a very different story than the one he was preaching to me.

IMO, the problem isn't that a lot of these guys aren't very good at this stuff, but it's the fact that they are so closed minded and arrogant about the matter, thus refusing to expand their abilities in this area of expertise.

**zaggahamma** · 01-25-2010, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

No, there was no convincing this moron. This was about the time that I ended up going to an HRT specialist, who got me going in the right direction. For awhile, I was getting 1/2 my test (100mg) at home, and then having to go to the endo's office every week for the other 1/2 (100mg). Eventually, my primary doctor overruled the endo and sent me home with a prescription. The Endo actually fired me when I sent him some Endocrinology Journals, which basically told a very different story than the one he was preaching to me.

IMO, the problem isn't that a lot of these guys aren't very good at this stuff, but it's the fact that they are so closed minded and arrogant about the matter, thus refusing to expand their abilities in this area of expertise.

it should be actually criminal behavior what they are doing

**whiteowl** · 01-25-2010, 10:22 PM

Copy on JPK. Criminal. The first time i picked up my scipt i was confused by the mg from an ml vial so i called the endo's office. A 20 something female answered the phone and from the start i get a lecture on "this is why we do it here because men are so subject to abusing it and it is a controlled substance and" i hung up. Hang in there, if it is any consolation, most of us have gone through it and there is life on the other side.

**Enfuego129** · 01-26-2010, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

No, there was no convincing this moron. This was about the time that I ended up going to an HRT specialist, who got me going in the right direction. For awhile, I was getting 1/2 my test (100mg) at home, and then having to go to the endo's office every week for the other 1/2 (100mg). Eventually, my primary doctor overruled the endo and sent me home with a prescription. The Endo actually fired me when I sent him some Endocrinology Journals, which basically told a very different story than the one he was preaching to me.

IMO, the problem isn't that a lot of these guys aren't very good at this stuff, but it's the fact that they are so closed minded and arrogant about the matter, thus refusing to expand their abilities in this area of expertise.

Vette and JP you are spot on with your assessment of Buckeyes doctor and how open minded he might be. I have the same concerns with my doctor as you know. Yesterday I sent an e-mail to Dr Crisler (All things Male) about what insurance he accepts.

**buckeyes#1** · 01-26-2010, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Enfuego129

Vette and JP you are spot on with your assessment of Buckeyes doctor and how open minded he might be. I have the same concerns with my doctor as you know. Yesterday I sent an e-mail to Dr Crisler (All things Male) about what insurance he accepts.

Enfuego,

Would you let me know when you get information on the insurance? I was under the impression that he did not accept insurance.

I have asked Ohio Health Hospitals, OSU Medical Center, etc if they have anyone who specialized in hormone replacement, TRT, hypogonadism. I get the same response from them all, 'we have doctors who treat patients with low testosterone , but none that specialize in it.' There has to be someone in this state that accepts insurance and treats it sufficiently.

**Enfuego129** · 01-26-2010, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by buckeyes#1

Enfuego,

Would you let me know when you get information on the insurance? I was under the impression that he did not accept insurance.

I have asked Ohio Health Hospitals, OSU Medical Center, etc if they have anyone who specialized in hormone replacement, TRT, hypogonadism. I get the same response from them all, 'we have doctors who treat patients with low testosterone, but none that specialize in it.' There has to be someone in this state that accepts insurance and treats it sufficiently.

I will let you guys know as soon as I know.

From his website it doesn't appear he accepts insurance either. That would be a shame if it were true.

**Vettester** · 01-26-2010, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

it should be actually criminal behavior what they are doing

It's that old saying ... Knowledge is power and ignorance is bliss! For some reason, these types of doctors feel they have achieved some pontification level over the patient. That SOB Endo never once even asked how I felt. He just started pointing his authority, making BS statements, and threatening AndroGel on me if my levels ever got over 800 ... How stupid is that? So glad that moron is behind, but unfortunately there's thousands just like him, which in turn are gearing up more guys to seek out forums like this one where they can actually get some facts and compassion.

Everyone put some $$ in the AA/HRT Clinics stock ... Based on how traditional medical facilities are evolving in this field, I'd say it's a pretty sure bet!

**Enfuego129** · 01-26-2010, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

It's that old saying ... Knowledge is power and ignorance is bliss! For some reason, these types of doctors feel they have achieved some pontification level over the patient. That SOB Endo never once even asked how I felt. He just started pointing his authority, making BS statements, and threatening AndroGel on me if my levels ever got over 800 ... How stupid is that? So glad that moron is behind, but unfortunately there's thousands just like him, which in turn are gearing up more guys to seek out forums like this one where they can actually get some facts and compassion.

Everyone put some $$ in the AA/HRT Clinics stock ... Based on how traditional medical facilities are evolving in this field, I'd say it's a pretty sure bet!

Excuse my ignorance what does the AA stand for in AA/HRT?

Vette, BTW I got your PM thanks!

**buckeyes#1** · 01-26-2010, 03:03 PM

I have BodyLogicMD in town here and both Dr. Garcia's seem to be pretty respected in the AA field. I just hate the idea of shucking out $$$ for something that I should be able to get addressed under my insurance.

I could handle the initial consult and bloodwork, but don't want to pay their prices for Rx forever.

How much am I looking at $-wise with an AA clinic?

I am just so frustrated trying to find a doctor that can and will help. I have done every google search known to man, contacted the local compounding pharmacy, called OSU medical center, etc. It is like I am on a wild goose chase.

**buckeyes#1** · 01-26-2010, 03:05 PM

I have BodyLogicMD in town here and both Dr. Garcia's seem to be pretty respected in the AA field. I just hate the idea of shucking out $$$ for something that I should be able to get addressed under my insurance.

I could handle the initial consult and bloodwork, but don't want to pay their prices for Rx forever.

How much am I looking at $-wise with an AA clinic?

I am just so frustrated trying to find a doctor that can and will help. I have done every google search known to man, contacted the local compounding pharmacy, called OSU medical center, etc. It is like I am on a wild goose chase. Where else can I look?

**Vettester** · 01-26-2010, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Enfuego129

Excuse my ignorance what does the AA stand for in AA/HRT?

Vette, BTW I got your PM thanks!

Enfuego, it stands for Anti Aging. You'll see a lot of these places referred to as Anti Aging Clinics.

**Vettester** · 01-26-2010, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by buckeyes#1

I have BodyLogicMD in town here and both Dr. Garcia's seem to be pretty respected in the AA field. I just hate the idea of shucking out $$$ for something that I should be able to get addressed under my insurance.

I could handle the initial consult and bloodwork, but don't want to pay their prices for Rx forever.

How much am I looking at $-wise with an AA clinic?

I am just so frustrated trying to find a doctor that can and will help. I have done every google search known to man, contacted the local compounding pharmacy, called OSU medical center, etc. It is like I am on a wild goose chase. Where else can I look?

I agree with what you're saying about the insurance aspect. Unfortunately, because of that aspect, I've found myself in similar positions. For $300 of medicine at the AA Clinic, I can get for $25 at my primary. Unfortunately, the primary doesn't give enough, and they don't believe in HCG , or AI. My primary doc absolutely refuses to check E2 or anything estrogen related ... Refuses! Not saying this is right, but yes, I am cheating on my primary. I've stated many times that HRT is about balance ... I will do what it takes to find and keep that balance.

Price tag kind of depends on what you get. Could get up around 2K year with just keeping the basics, along with some AI. One thing I know now is that I could have just as easily ordered up my own blood work and saved several hundred right off the bat. If you throw HGH in the mix it will go sky high! Regardless of where you go, you need to run a full panel at the lab, and then you need to speak with someone who can give you an idea of what you're really going to need or don't need to find your own balance. Have you checked with yellowpages.com

**zaggahamma** · 01-27-2010, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

It's that old saying ... Knowledge is power and ignorance is bliss! For some reason, these types of doctors feel they have achieved some pontification level over the patient. That SOB Endo never once even asked how I felt. He just started pointing his authority, making BS statements, and threatening AndroGel on me if my levels ever got over 800 ... How stupid is that? So glad that moron is behind, but unfortunately there's thousands just like him, which in turn are gearing up more guys to seek out forums like this one where they can actually get some facts and compassion.

Everyone put some $$ in the AA/HRT Clinics stock ... Based on how traditional medical facilities are evolving in this field, I'd say it's a pretty sure bet!

great idea vette...

i got to start thinking like that $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

i said one day trt would be mainstream but not the stock market...i thought about it when watching an influential t.v. show...buying stock in any product mentioned on the show.....

havent done it so far....prolly why i'm driving an ole minivan AND NOT A VETTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2010....year of CHANGE!!!!!!!!!

cant believe i used that bastards slogaN...LOL

**buckeyes#1** · 01-27-2010, 09:42 AM

Contacted BodyLogicMD here in columbus. They sent me their pricing information.

BodyLogicMD Pricing**

Office visits:

Initial consultation: $395

Follow up visit: $275

First Follow up visits usually generally occur between 1 and 3 months after your initial consultation. Subsequent Follow up visits as scheduled by your physician generally happen every 5 to 6 months, or twice per year.

Phone consults are available and billable

Lab Testing:

Initial Testing costs, which includes both blood and saliva, are $495 for women and $595 for men. Additional tests are available if you have specific concerns you would like addressed.

Follow up lab testing varies as determined by you and your physician but generally averages approximately $250 - more or less based on your specific customized program.

Compounded Prescriptions:

Most prescriptions, like Estrogen, Progesterone, Testosterone , average $35+ each per month, per hormone. The costs of prescriptions will be discussed based on the customized treatment plan that the physician has discussed with you during the consultation.

Nutriceuticals:

Your physician may recommend nutritional products to support your treatment. BodyLogicMD offers only the best in pharmaceutical grade supplements for our patients. These high quality supplements can only be provided with a physician order. As well, BodyLogicMD offers a simple and convenient way for you to receive your prescriptions and nutriceuticals automatically each month.

Insurance:

BodyLogicMD does not accept insurance directly. We will happily provide you with itemized invoices; so that you may submit the claim to your insurance. TIP: When you are looking at your insurance coverage, look for your out-of-network specialist coverage; this is most likely what our doctor will be categorized as. Medicare patients will not be able to submit claims to Medicare because BodyLogicMD is not a Medicare provider.

**Vettester** · 01-27-2010, 12:31 PM

Buckeye, here's an example of where you can get your own BW done:

http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lp/Male...ne_Testing.php

There might be a few additional tests they could use, but the panel described in this link would give any doctor the gist of where you're at. Unfortunately, the only major issue I have with the AA Clinics is that they're definitely gouging the market at this stage. They've got a winning product, the competition isn't significant, and mainstream medical is losing market share to them at rapid rates (too many of the endos like the one I had aren't helping). Until some of these variables change, it's going to be a bit on the expensive side when dealing with a place that has their crap together. However, it doesn't mean that you can't find some better deals if you shop around, or even if you ask for a better deal up front ... You might get a discount if you tell them that you're waiting for another quote.

**Brian McClay** · 01-27-2010, 06:14 PM

In answer to your question bloodwork is so easy to do and will tell you everythng you need to know, It is not a big deal. Get it done

**buckeyes#1** · 01-27-2010, 07:26 PM

Brian, I have had bloodwork taken quite a few times. My issue is finding the right doctor to effectively treat low testosterone .

**buckeyes#1** · 02-04-2010, 11:50 AM

Getting frustrated in my search for a doctor that accepts insurance and has an interest in HRT. I have spoken with both the Urology and Endo Departments at OSU Medical Center. They both have people who treat it, but none that specialize in it. The urology department said they have one doctor who is training in it currently, but he will not be practicing for 1.5 years still.

My sister is in talks with the doctors at the Cleveland Clinic. She is an RN in management there and they are looking into it for me. The one urologists believes heknows someone in Columbus and is making some calls today. Keeping my fingers crossed.

**zaggahamma** · 02-04-2010, 02:47 PM

buckeyes...refresh my memory...

you were on 200mg every other week...is that still the protocol and you have to go in for the shot(s)?....also...taking anything else? and how is your progress and or complaints with the current treatment? or is the insurance the main concern at this point?

**buckeyes#1** · 02-04-2010, 03:57 PM

.lla ta peels t'nac ro 8 ta peelsa llaf rehtie I .noitautis eht htiw ssergorp oN .won thgir sdem rehto oN . USO ta odne eht ees otni teg nacI litnu stohs gm001 ylkeew nigeb ll wiI .keew siht Lm01 ym eveice rdluo shI .stohs 4 tsrif eht no emos detsaw evah yeht yltnerappA .laiv eht ni Lm6.ylno saw ereht esuaceb emit siht gm021 em evig ylno dluoc yehT .yadseut siht tohs tsal ym dah tsuj I .keew rehto yreve gm002 eht gniod ma llits I
,KpJ

**flatscat** · 02-04-2010, 04:46 PM

alrighty then

**Vettester** · 02-04-2010, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by buckeyes#1

.lla ta peels t'nac ro 8 ta peelsa llaf rehtie I .noitautis eht htiw ssergorp oN .won thgir sdem rehto oN . USO ta odne eht ees otni teg nacI litnu stohs gm001 ylkeew nigeb ll wiI .keew siht Lm01 ym eveice rdluo shI .stohs 4 tsrif eht no emos detsaw evah yeht yltnerappA .laiv eht ni Lm6.ylno saw ereht esuaceb emit siht gm021 em evig ylno dluoc yehT .yadseut siht tohs tsal ym dah tsuj I .keew rehto yreve gm002 eht gniod ma llits I
,KpJ

OK, that pretty much summarizes everything.

**Enfuego129** · 02-04-2010, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by buckeyes#1

Enfuego,

Would you let me know when you get information on the insurance? I was under the impression that he did not accept insurance.

I have asked Ohio Health Hospitals, OSU Medical Center, etc if they have anyone who specialized in hormone replacement, TRT, hypogonadism. I get the same response from them all, 'we have doctors who treat patients with low testosterone, but none that specialize in it.' There has to be someone in this state that accepts insurance and treats it sufficiently.

As promised I have attached the "new patient letter" from Dr Crislers office. Within the letter you will find that he does not accept insurance but does provide coded bills for you to submit to your insurance.

In my case I am new to HRT and am running the course with my GP and Endo. Once I feel they have exhausted their abilities or when I am not satisfied with their treatment protocol I plan on moving on to Dr Crisler and pay out of pocket for whatever needs to be done.

My experience on this forum has been invaluable and I thank guys like JP and Vette for taking the time to explain and recommend things to myself and others that I have read. TIME TO PAY THAT FORWARD AND HELP SOMEONE ELSE. Thanks guys.