Hcg

[durak]

Run HCG during cycle or in PCT? Thoughts? I am schedule to run it in PCT now but see some people recommend it during cycle.

[zaggahamma]

i dont think i've quite figured out or dont remember what exactly your protocol is...but on trt we dont do pct because theres no/non optimal test level to REGAIN/RESTORE....

it is however recommended to run hcg during your trt to stay fertile and/or prevent shrinkage if these two areas are of concern to the patient

[durak]

lol... yeah my protocol is kinda open ended... my test is at 240.

The clinc I went to does use pct. This clinc is a primary one in the palm beach area. They claim the pct is necessary and continual trt has side effects beyond the nuts. It break it down like this.

for 10 or 20 weeks
testosterone injections
Anastrozol
Tamox

PCT
-Clomid
-HCG

Then rinse and repeat.

My original protocol used 400mg of cypionate and 200mg of deca a week. Because i have some experience I said that was too much and started out at 200mg of cyp a week for 10 weeks and 50mg of winstrol eod for 6 weeks.

After educating myself some more, I am looking at "requesting" hcg during and not in PCT.

[durak]

I think Jpkman brings up a good point for why these discussions are important. He says (and I read this in many other places too) that trt does not include pct. I agree with his statement up front.

My current TRT Dr makes the claim that pct is necessary and continual trt is bad. He also includes anastrozol and tamox during my cycle (most people think the tamox is unnecessary because it act against the anastrozol).

So what is correct? I think the answer is neither/both. I will say that my HRT clinic is probably trying to milk me for every dime they can get. But does that make them wrong? I don't know but I am not going to just trust them.

Basically personal research is important and Drs. are not always right. Go to two different Drs and you may get two different answers.

Any thoughts? All I really know is my testosterone is/was at 240 and life sucked, other than that I am confused....lol.

[Vettester]

Durak, my doc has me on 250iu x 3 per week. That is in addition to the 200mg/wk of "T". My E2 has crept up from 23 to 39 since I started this protocol, but will be talking to my doc on Friday to review this. (Might need to adjust the Adex dosage)

I know what you're saying about each doctor's protocol, and how they vary. My doctor kind of works like yours, where he originally had me on a 12 week program, then break for a month with a two week hit of HCG . I took a close look at it both ways and elected to include smaller amounts with my TRT regiment, without stopping, which my doctor is cool with that too. But, his first option and preference is the same way your doctor thinks.

[durak]

so by including HCG now I do not "cycle" and won't completely kill of the little guys?

[Vettester]

so by including HCG now I do not "cycle" and won't completely kill of the little guys?

Exactly. You don't need to cycle, you can just incorporate HCG with a continuous run of TRT. I've read where some still say to take a break from the HCG after running it for a few months (keep running TRT). I'm going to include this topic in my discussion with my doctor this coming Friday. I just want to make sure that there's no leydig cell issues with taking smaller amounts over the long haul. If you'd like, I'll let you know his thoughts on the matter.

[durak]

absolutely....

Thanks.

[Vettester]

At some point on Friday, I'll add a post on this thread. I need to get it confirmed because my HCG is approaching 60 days, so it's time for a reorder on the script.

Stay tuned ...

[Black]

Duraku, sounds like your doctor is just monitoring you while giving you a cycle. If you are completely shut down, taking a break will do you no good. PCT after a cycle is necessary to restart your natural production. However, if you are truly shutdown, this will do you no good.

A better option, would be to try some HCG and Arimidex therapy only to see if that gets the boys going on their own.

As far as HCG goes, I take a month break after being on for 2 months straight. My reason for doing this is the negative impact I've read that can happen with long term HCG use. How much of that is true I don't know. I also need to have a sperm analysis to see just how much the HCG is doing it's job.

[durak]

Duraku, sounds like your doctor is just monitoring you while giving you a cycle.

You forgot while taking every dime he can... lol.

[zaggahamma]

I think Jpkman brings up a good point for why these discussions are important. He says (and I read this in many other places too) that trt does not include pct. I agree with his statement up front.

My current TRT Dr makes the claim that pct is necessary and continual trt is bad. He also includes anastrozol and tamox during my cycle (most people think the tamox is unnecessary because it act against the anastrozol).

So what is correct? I think the answer is neither/both. I will say that my HRT clinic is probably trying to milk me for every dime they can get. But does that make them wrong? I don't know but I am not going to just trust them.

Basically personal research is important and Drs. are not always right. Go to two different Drs and you may get two different answers.

Any thoughts? All I really know is my testosterone is/was at 240 and life sucked, other than that I am confused....lol.

well said...i think we are all ever learning

[Vettester]

Durak, as promised ... My doc seems to feel there are no long-term issues with taking smaller doses like we are discussing. He says he's had patients on it for 20 years and they're going great. Larger doses is a different story, but he has patients that do 250iu, and even 500iu a couple times a week.

I haven't had any issues or complaints. Before taking it, I used to always have this constant dull aching sensation in my left nut. That has pretty much gone away since starting the HCG . Sometimes it shows up a little bit after , but nothing like before.

[durak]

Durak, as promised ... My doc seems to feel there are no long-term issues with taking smaller doses like we are discussing. He says he's had patients on it for 20 years and they're going great. Larger doses is a different story, but he has patients that do 250iu, and even 500iu a couple times a week.

I haven't had any issues or complaints. Before taking it, I used to always have this constant dull aching sensation in my left nut. That has pretty much gone away since starting the HCG . Sometimes it shows up a little bit after , but nothing like before.

Thank so much. It really helps to get input that comes from a doctor that knows their stuff.

So you are on 250mg 3x a week. I think I will start there. Do you know why one would want to up it to 500mg 3x a week? What pros/cons?

[Vettester]

Thank so much. It really helps to get input that comes from a doctor that knows their stuff.

So you are on 250mg 3x a week. I think I will start there. Do you know why one would want to up it to 500mg 3x a week? What pros/cons?

Durak, yes, I'm at 250iu, but my doc has changed it to 2x per week. We're going to see if these dosages continue to help with keeping the boys healthy, and that my "T" score doesn't suffer (which it won't). Someone might take higher doses if they were possibly experiencing some serious atrophy issues, or maybe if they were looking to conceive a child. Cons could be the chances for increased side effects, ranging from rash to nausea and things in between. Too much can damage the leydig cells, so that's something to think about.

The 250iu x 3 is a decent place to start and you can get a feel for how it works. It should increase your "T", and I swear my libido is way up when I take a shot.

Really want to hear your experiences with it, so keep us tuned.

[durak]

this is from anabolics 2009:

On-Cycle:
Bodybuilders and athletes may also administer Human Chorionic Gonadotropin throughout a steroid cycle, in an effort to avoid testicular atrophy and the resulting reduced ability to respond to LH stimulus. In effect, this practice is used to avoid the problem of testicular atrophy, instead of trying to correct it later on when the cycle is over. It is important to remember that the dosage needs to be carefully monitored with this type of use, as high levels of hCG may cause increased testicular aromatase expression (raising estrogen levels),920 and also desensitize the testes to LH.921 As such, the drug may actually induce primary hypogonadism when misused, greatly prolonging, not improving, the recovery window. Current protocols for the use of hCG in this manner involve administering 250lU subcutaneously twice per week (every 3rd or 4th day) throughout the length of the steroid cycle. Higher doses may be necessary for some individuals, but at no point should exceed 500lU per injection.
These on-cycle hCG protocols were developed by Dr.John Crisler, a well-known figure in the anti-aging and hormone-replacement field, for use with his testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients. Although TRT is often administered on a long-term basis, testicular atrophy is a common cosmetic complaint of patients irrespective of the maintenance of normal androgen levels. Dr. Crisler's hCG program is designed to alleviate this concern in a manner that is acceptable for longer-term use. For those interested in precisely timing their hCG shots in relation to a prescribed testosterone replacement program, Dr. Crisler recommends the following in his paper,"An Update to the Crisler hCG Protocol," "... my test cyp TRT patients now take their hCG at 250lU two days before,as well as the day immediately previous to, their 1M shot. All administer their hCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350lU per dose required) ... Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone , or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their hCG every third day."