Which comes first? Bulk up or cut up?

[kingfish]

Weight loss has been a real struggle, even with upping the cardio to 40 min 4-5x weekly. My endo is testing me again to raise my weekly test dose from 100mg to 150mg, so I think that will be helpful. I'm just wondering if it makes more sense to increase the calories to add lean mass and crank up my BMR, then diet down later. Dieting to lose fat now with the intent of bulking up later has been real slow going.

[Times Roman]

Skinny guys bulk, fat guys cut.

Guys in between? take your pick depending on your goals.

[flatscat]

^^^X2

if you are overweight with a high BF%, then you should cut. High BF effects so many things - u have to get that down. Does not mean that you cant gain lbm at the same time though - but to bulk with high BF is a disaster waiting to happen imo.

[flatscat]

what kind of diet are you on?

[zaggahamma]

u can reduce calories around 500 a day from maintenance and lose a pound a week while gaining strength and adding lean muscle...been there done it

agree with above....if you are high bf% you dont want to increase your calories

[kingfish]

I hadn't considered the high BF issue. I'm at 29% but it's all sitting on my gut & flanks. Problem is losing 1 lb a week is just too slow to keep me motivated. I'd been following the maint. minus 500cal route (about 2400 daily) but the results were agonizingly slow. The endo told me to crank up the cardio, so I've been doing 40 min 4 or 5 times weekly. The goal is to lose 40lb and get down to 220.
Far as diet goes, I cook steak, pork, chicken etc to bring to work along with veggies, and then have another protein and veggie for dinner. Bkfast is typically two eggs and egg white omelette with Ezekiel toast.

[zaggahamma]

I hadn't considered the high BF issue. I'm at 29% but it's all sitting on my gut & flanks. Problem is losing 1 lb a week is just too slow to keep me motivated. I'd been following the maint. minus 500cal route (about 2400 daily) but the results were agonizingly slow. The endo told me to crank up the cardio, so I've been doing 40 min 4 or 5 times weekly. The goal is to lose 40lb and get down to 220.
Far as diet goes, I cook steak, pork, chicken etc to bring to work along with veggies, and then have another protein and veggie for dinner. Bkfast is typically two eggs and egg white omelette with Ezekiel toast.

i hear u...of course it would be awesome to lose it all fast...when i did the 500 deficit....i was rarely hungry and it seemed as if i wasnt even dieting and i enjoyed all kinds of foods....for me it was just eating better which in turn lowers calories automatically...youre diet looks good when u say veggies i'm guessing youre trying to cut out potatoes/rice/starches....youre gonna do fine that way...if u need to lose more imo dont lose more than 2lbs and dont be unhappy if u only lose one....you'll be under 20% before u know it...are u able to do more things other than just cardio...like always find something to do...fun or constructive...sit/laydown only occasional and enjoy those few moments of rest and get on to something else

best of luck...keep us posted

[kingfish]

Thanks. Yep, I've pretty much eliminated sugar and starches and high GI fruits & veggies. Trying to drink lots of water daily too.

[lifeforce0019]

Thanks. Yep, I've pretty much eliminated sugar and starches and high GI fruits & veggies. Trying to drink lots of water daily too.

You need to add some resistance training to your exercise regime to achieve optimal fat loss and maintain lbm. 2 to 3 days a week of total body strength training (cybex machines, free weights) in addition to the cardio will get you where you want to be. If you have the luxury of time, do the cardio / aerobics in the morning before eating and do the strength training later in the day. Just my two cents - - - If you lose the excess weight too fast and then relapse you will gain even more fat / weight! 1 to 2 pounds a week is what you need to aim for. Good luck! Lots of guys here have succeeded and you can too! Keep us posted.

[subnet]

but to bulk with high BF is a disaster waiting to happen imo.

if you are high bf% you dont want to increase your calories

these!

Thanks. Yep, I've pretty much eliminated sugar and starches and high GI fruits & veggies. Trying to drink lots of water daily too.

king - sounds like you know what you should do but aren't seeing the results fast enough for you. Try to hang in there, burn off the calories with cardio, and you'll lose 1 to 2 pounds of fat per week and will gain some lean muscle at the same time. If you try to bulk now, you're going to end up bigger/heavier and still have a lot of weight to lose, plus it'll screw with your test/estrogen levels and aromitization... flats and jpk are bang-on! Remember it's not about weight, but the amount of fat you have including your waist size. I've lost only 5-8 or so pounds over a year, but have decreased my waist considerably and added muscle and am a lot healthier and in much better shape. Again, it's tough but just keep at it and you'll start to notice the physical changes soon!

[flatscat]

King, stay with it - pick a plan and stay with it for 30 days. Adjust cardio and or diet a little after the 30. I lost 50 pounds and about 7 inches off my waist in 5 or 6 months - low carbs - hi protien - cardio 5 times/week 4 miles 4.0 miles per hour 4 degrees of incline. lots of water - get'r done bro.

One last thing - I am a huge fan of progress pics - whether you post them or not doesnt matter - take them - pics dont lie bro.

Flats

[zaggahamma]

these!



king - sounds like you know what you should do but aren't seeing the results fast enough for you. Try to hang in there, burn off the calories with cardio, and you'll lose 1 to 2 pounds of fat per week and will gain some lean muscle at the same time. If you try to bulk now, you're going to end up bigger/heavier and still have a lot of weight to lose, plus it'll screw with your test/estrogen levels and aromitization... flats and jpk are bang-on! Remember it's not about weight, but the amount of fat you have including your waist size. I've lost only 5-8 or so pounds over a year, but have decreased my waist considerably and added muscle and am a lot healthier and in much better shape. Again, it's tough but just keep at it and you'll start to notice the physical changes soon!

thats key and most important...u lost probably 99.9% fat only and thats exactly what you/we want...back in the day they called that moving the weight around

[forrest_and_trees]

King, I know what I'm about to say is likely to ruffle some feathers here, however, from one high BF guy to another... Brother I feel your pain. I'm in the same boat [more so even] and I say *bulk up*!

And before anyone tells me the million reasons why that's wrong, hear me out. As a big guy, you can drop a butt load of weight and no one will notice if you still look like a pear. I've lost over 20lbs and hardly got a second look. But then I switched out my high rep, medium weight routine for a low rep, high weight one and focused on my upper body; after only a couple months I'm seeing some nice gains. I look less pear shape and more T shape, which actually gives the illusion I've lost more weight. *Now* I'm starting to get noticed. And here's why that's important. It's MUCH better motivation! It keeps me coming back to the gym. I *feel* better about myself which makes the workout feel more like a reward rather than ... well, "work". I burn more calories as I've increased muscle mass. I feel physically better which only encourages me to add more cardio to my routine which will in turn, kick in the cutting process and the bulk I've gained will only begin to look better and better. PLUS... and this is huge for high BF guys... you look less like "the fat guy" and more like a "big guy". People treat you differently. They show you more respect. ALL of this only makes you want to try harder and makes it easier to stick to your plan. In fact, personally I'm on the -2lbs. per week track and I monitor my caloric intake daily online using my iphone. As a result of how I look, It's encouraging me to eat *even* less and I'm actually coming in *under* my daily allowance yet I don't feel like I'm depriving myself. Which will only get me to my goal that much quicker. So you don't have to sweat it; the "cut" *will* come and in the mean time, you can enjoy your nice new body. ...But that's just my .02 cents. It may go against all the traditional thinking, but it makes "real world" sense. ...FLAME ON!

[zaggahamma]

King, I know what I'm about to say is likely to ruffle some feathers here, however, from one high BF guy to another... Brother I feel your pain. I'm in the same boat [more so even] and I say *bulk up*!

And before anyone tells me the million reasons why that's wrong, hear me out. As a big guy, you can drop a butt load of weight and no one will notice if you still look like a pear. I've lost over 20lbs and hardly got a second look. But then I switching out my high rep, medium weight routine for a low rep, high weight one and focused on my upper body; after only a couple months I'm seeing some nice gains. I look less pear shape and more T shape, which actually gives the illusion I've lost more weight. *Now* I'm starting to get noticed. And here's why that's important. It's MUCH better motivation! It keeps me coming back to the gym. I *feel* better about myself which makes the workout feel more like a reward rather than ... well, "work". I burn more calories as I've increased muscle mass. I feel physically better which only encourages me to add more cardio to my routine which will in turn, kick in the cutting process and the bulk I've gained will only begin to look better and better. PLUS... and this is huge for high BF guys... you look less like "the fat guy" and more like a "big guy". People treat you differently. They show you more respect. ALL of this only makes you want to try harder and makes it easier to stick to your plan. In fact, personally I'm on the -2lbs. per week track and I monitor my caloric intake daily online using my iphone. As a result of how I look, It's encouraging me to eat *even* less and I'm actually coming in *under* my daily allowance yet I don't feel like I'm depriving myself. Which will only get me to my goal that much quicker. So you don't have to sweat it; the "cut" *will* come and in the mean time, you can enjoy your nice new body. ...But that's just my .02 cents. It may go against all the traditional thinking, but it makes "real world" sense. ...FLAME ON!

no flame...i told him he could add lbm and lose fat/weight at the same time....you are probably losing more fat and moving YOUR weight as well...losing 20lbs first then lifting heavy with low reps..this burns a lot of calories as well....best advice is to eat well, train hard, move as often as u can...rest little but enough...live well

[flatscat]

I think we have some conflicting opinions on what a true "bulk" is. You can not "bulk" while dieting fandt. That is a "cut" no matter what your goals are.

[kingfish]

Thanks to all that weighed in. I'm just gonna have to stick to the plan and not get discouraged. In reality, it's not so bleak. I put 90lb on my bench in six months working with a trainer (up to 335 now) and my upper body is def showing the results, which helps make the midsection looks smaller. That's just my trouble area, and sticking to a diet and lots of cardio is the best way to fix it. I have to remind myself often that progress doesn't come as quick as I'd like but consistency is the only way to reach the goal.

[arizona32]

I agree with JPKman. I have done the same thing over the past year, about 200-500 calorie deficit with great results. Lost about 25 lbs. fat and gained about 10-12 muscle. Look way better. Wanted to get away from the chubby bodybuilder look. Funny thing is most people comment on how much bigger I look even though I'm considerably lighter, because my arms/ shoulders are big and cut, but my waist is so much smaller. If you read on the bodybuilder forums they all say to get lean first, and from personal experience I agree. Not only will you look better but you will feel better and be much healthier.
I also agree with JPK that it is much healthier and longer lasting to go slow. No drastic or trendy diets. In fact I am against "bulking" and "cutting". It is much better in the long run to be consistent. Find food and training thay you enjoy and take your time. Otherwise you burn out.

[kingfish]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea of adding LBM while on a restricted calorie diet. Although I've seen the results of this myself, I don't understand how you build muscle while maintaining a calorie deficit to lose fat. Got more reading to do here I suppose...

[zaggahamma]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea of adding LBM while on a restricted calorie diet. Although I've seen the results of this myself, I don't understand how you build muscle while maintaining a calorie deficit to lose fat. Got more reading to do here I suppose...

my college nutrition bood said building muscle only required adequate/moderate amounts of protein which contradicts the usual belief of 1.5 grams, etc. per pound of lbm u weigh...but like u said...you have seen it...i am living proof it can be done, etc.