The half-pyramid system and why it works for me.

[jlguitar]

I
have posted before about my half-pyramid system for trt.I start at
150mg test cypionate and increase my dose 10mg a week,sample
(150,160,170,180,190,200) when i reach 200mg i skip a weeks shot and
start the pyramid again at 150mg.Now i have run the same constant dosage
in the past but it gives me really bad e.d. no morning wood at all.Now i
know people look down on pyramid systems but in the old days
1970s,1980s that was what worked and i still think i works today.Now the
positive aspects of my system for me is great morning wood,great
libido,a happy positive mindset and feeling.So you ask what are the
negative aspects to this system,well when you go from 200mg back to
150mg the week of the 150mg shot you feel tired and run down but only
for that week.I also take .5mg of adex a week to keep e2 in
check,usually my test levels average around 750 and e2 around 25 ive
been on this protocol a little over a year(i have been on trt for 4
years total) i have tried different protocols over the years but this
one works best for me.

[durak]

Way too complicated...

[flatscat]

i guess the thread I responded to yesterday was deleted.

I have heard that increased libido will be felt as your t levels rise and fall. I experience this as well. This is why your protocol is interesting to me, and should be to those who still have a libido issue after they have been on trt for a while. I think as long as you never go below upper range and the increase/decrease is gradual, and you E2 is under control, everything should be ok. Before we all went on trt, our natty t levels fluctuated a lot as well not only during the day, but day to day and week to week.

Glad it is working for you!

[jlguitar]

Thank you flatscat for your kind words. You are right about the raising and lowering of testosterone levels increasing libido and the feeling of happiness.For me sustanon 250 was the greatest test around but cypionate is okay,well most of us have a hard enough time getting our doctors to prescribe cypionate it would be extremely hard to get them to prescribe sustanon or a prop/cyp combo, those two products would work the best.

[PPC]

I had some questions. They somehow got deleted - is it okay for me to ask you them here jlguitar?

[warchild]

you're talking bumps of 10mgs

[jlguitar]

I had some questions. They somehow got deleted - is it okay for me to ask you them here jlguitar?

Sure ask me anything you want and i will try to answer.

[jlguitar]

you're talking bumps of 10mgs

yes thats half a tick on the syringe you have to be very precise when measuring when your drawing from the vial of test cyp.

[PPC]

Sure ask me anything you want and i will try to answer.

Since you use variable dosing, have you ever done multiple testing to see the differences in your own T levels as they climb with the higher doses? Do you know your peak or trough or do you mainly rely on feel?

Do you test HGB? Since 200mg is quite high, have you found the higher doses to raise HGB or hematocrit to the point where you need to give blood?

So you do not change arimidex dosing with the higher doses of test? Is it always 1 mg per week no matter your injection level and this doesn't cause high or low E symptoms?

You do not use HCG ?

Thanks so much for your input. I find your protocol very interesting.

[jlguitar]

Since you use variable dosing, have you ever done multiple testing to see the differences in your own T levels as they climb with the higher doses? Do you know your peak or trough or do you mainly rely on feel?

Do you test HGB? Since 200mg is quite high, have you found the higher doses to raise HGB or hematocrit to the point where you need to give blood?

So you do not change arimidex dosing with the higher doses of test? Is it always 1 mg per week no matter your injection level and this doesn't cause high or low E symptoms?

You do not use HCG ?

Thanks so much for your input. I find your protocol very interesting.

I have not done multiple testing just the trough,mostly its a feel thing,i am assuming your talking about SHGB i have never tested it.My hemotocrit has stayed the same ever since starting trt 4 years ago(been doing the half-pyramid system i little over a year.).On the lower dosages(150,160,)I use .25mg adex and anything over those two dosages i use .5mg adex.I do not use hcg.

[Vettester]

Agree with Durak, way too complicated! Not bashing, if it works for you then great, but it would be real difficult to keep track and measure out consistently. Besides, there will indeed be some fluctuations with the body that are not completely relevant with the total serum score. Albumin and SHBG levels will change throughout a protocol, which directly effects the free and bio-available levels that your body is actually using.

I'm trying to reverse engineer this a little and see the rationale. If a constant dose, let's say 175mg gives you severe ED, then what is the variable behind this causing the ED? You have the E2 under control with the AI, which IMO would be a lot more consistent with a constant dose of cyp due to the same conversion process every week. So, we know it's not a E2 issue. I can't find the "x" factor here and would really like to know how a variable stepped protocol will eliminate this problem, or better yet, how a steady constant protocol will create this problem? I'm sincerely open to learning new things here, so if anyone can explain this phenomena I will gladly keep an open mind. -Thanks

[pittbulldad]

I'll take a stab at this..

(please note numbers and values i'm using are ones i'm just picking not actual values or variances just trying to make a good example)

I think what he is going for is assuming that a consistent dosage of test with result in a specific value X for example... and within normal vairiances of a standard dosage he gets X plus OR minus a variable value. So say he does 200 mg/wk he would expect to have T levels fall within a certain range (700 to 750 for example). I think the OP is having issues while staying in the same range.

So in order to shock his system into reacting he is changing his dosages to these other values so that he has varying ranges of T in his system. So one we he does 150 mg and acheives a serum test plus or minus standard variance. He then follows this along each week essentially causing his natural production to supress. Then the last week he is at 200 he then shocks his system to by not injecting for two weeks and then slowly brings up the dosage again...

Personally I think there is an extraneous value that he is missing that is causing the ED and that the system shock is masking what the actual cause is..

[PPC]

I find this variable dosing intriguing - I think it could have an effect on dopamine which obviously is a big booster of libido. Often guys report a big surge of well being at the beginning of TRT - possibly the rising T causes higher dopamine levels. But then things level off - unfortunately some people then revert back to pre trt levels energy and libdo wise even with total T nearing 1000- yes there could be many reasons for this, different for each individual who suffers. But...increasing T levels like this may have the ability to keep the body from down regulating dopamine as it is want to do. Maybe the body never gets a chance to catch on and play 'Kill Joy' due to the changing levels.

Many females on BHRT cycle their hormones and have different doses of T, E and P that they vary each day to mimic a younger woman's cycle. I have to remember what day of my cycle I am on and what hormone I need accordingly so I think it would not be too hard for some guys with libdio/ED issues that haven't been resolved by good T:E ratios to give something like this a whirl. Of course for those feeling great on their TRT, it would be crazy to mess with what's not broken.

From a more personal perspective, I have noticed that when my husband has started or stopped TRT for whatever reason, there is always a higher spike of libido for a little while. He is one who seems not to do that great on a standard dose. But I think this could take a lot of trial and error.

Jlguitar - have you ever used gels? I know many have trouble absorbing them but they do pulse closer to a more natural pattern than shots...apparently.

[Vettester]

I'll take a stab at this..
So in order to shock his system into reacting he is changing his dosages to these other values so that he has varying ranges of T in his system. So one we he does 150 mg and acheives a serum test plus or minus standard variance. He then follows this along each week essentially causing his natural production to supress. Then the last week he is at 200 he then shocks his system to by not injecting for two weeks and then slowly brings up the dosage again...

Personally I think there is an extraneous value that he is missing that is causing the ED and that the system shock is masking what the actual cause is..

Shock??? I've never heard of 10mg increments "shocking" the system. Like I mentioned in my previous post, the fee and bio-available testosterone could easily change on its own to reflect +/- 10mg's worth of exogenous testosterone, simply by a drop or gain of one's SHBG. The OP has been on TRT for four (4) years, do you seriously believe that he actually has any natural production to suppress during these protocols? Seriously?? I'm banking that the body can adapt to minor variations of exogenous testosterone, and it is in a constant state a dealing with peaks and troughs throughout the cycle from one injection to the next. I agree with extraneous value suggestion. Appreciate your theory (as always).

I find this variable dosing intriguing - I think it could have an effect on dopamine which obviously is increasing T levels like this may have the ability to keep the body from down regulating dopamine as it is want to do. Maybe the body never gets a chance to catch on and play 'Kill Joy' due to the changing levels.

Agree, that could be a definite cause. So a prolactin panel could help provide some answers to this?

[pittbulldad]

Shock??? I've never heard of 10mg increments "shocking" the system. Like I mentioned in my previous post, the fee and bio-available testosterone could easily change on its own to reflect +/- 10mg's worth of exogenous testosterone, simply by a drop or gain of one's SHBG. The OP has been on TRT for four (4) years, do you seriously believe that he actually has any natural production to suppress during these protocols? Seriously?? I'm banking that the body can adapt to minor variations of exogenous testosterone, and it is in a constant state a dealing with peaks and troughs throughout the cycle from one injection to the next. I agree with extraneous value suggestion. Appreciate your theory (as always).

Didn't say i bought into it .. was just thinking out loud to see if I understood what his logic is.. there is a logic.. i think he is using weight training logic in regards to hormone production and it doesn't quite work that way

[flatscat]

Let's get some members that cycle regularly to chime in here - A lot of folks expeience increased libido while they are ramping up and at the end as the their levels start to drop. It's the 10mg bumps that have me stumped - It would make more sense to me if it were say 50 or more, but it seems to be working for hthe OP

Let's figure this out.

I know that when I have been blasting, as I go up my libido increases and, as I am coming back to cruise levels my libido increases. Seriously

[PPC]

Agree, that could be a definite cause. So a prolactin panel could help provide some answers to this?

Yes, if prolactin was elevated it would be the culprit for low dopamine but...some guys have prolactin in range and yet these issues persist.

You may have read the following by Dr Mariano. I think it sheds some good insight on this issue but doesn't offer much in the way of rememdy. Maybe JLguitar has stumbled upon a way of keeeping high enough levels of dopamine around with his system."

"The following is fairly speculative.

High levels of testosterone for long periods of time, can, I think, result in tolerance to the higher levels of dopamine in the brain. The initial almost euphoric feeling that initial TRT can eventually wane to a lesser level. When at hypogonadal levels for a long time, there may be suprasensitivity to dopamine that develops from the dopamine deficit of hypogonadism. This contributes to the high that results from TRT at the onset.

A problem for testosterone therapy is that there is no therapy that really mimics the daily fluctuations in testosterone production. Testosterone tends to be highest in the morning and fall gradually through the day. This means the dopamine levels in the brain will also follow a similar pattern. Testosterone treatment generally follows either a many day decay in level after a large peak (e.g. injections) or a very steady state level (e.g. transdermals or pellets).

Dopamine is one neurotransmitter that clearly can result in tolerance when present at high levels. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that needs to vary in concentration hour by hour. On of its functions is to provide a feeling of reward on certain events. A reward cannot last forever, it has to have a finite life or one cannot differentiated it as a reward. TRT generally does not have the frequent fluctuations in dopamine level during the course of the day that natural testotserone production lends.

Dopamine sensitivity improves once a deficit is created.

Going off TRT periodically, which is done by ASIH, for example, would then allow dopamine sensitivity to return.

In a way, if dopamine insensitivity is an issue, then one other possible solution would be to have once a month injections such as a colleague of mine uses for her TRT clients. This causes a large peak and then a return to baseline hypogonadism before the next injection. Dopamine levels follow the testosterone curves - in this case having large changes in levels through the month.

The thought of giving a person their whole 4 week supply of testosterone in one injection gives me pause - for example out of concern for a roller coaster experience. The large dose of injection also is a concern. Problems with supraphysiologic levels of testosterone and other hormones at the onsent of treatment is a concern. From her experience, her technique works well for her clients. Perhaps this is one technique that maintains dopamine sensitivity since dopamine levels are constantly changing rather than remaining at the same high levels.

"A third approach would be doing TRT in such a way as to avoid very high total testosterone levels - for example, going up to 400-500 ng/dl rather than 650-1000 ng/dl. This way, dopamine levels do not remain constantly high. There then is more headroom for the brain to produce more dopamine in the reward circuits of the brain on demend, without getting to high levels that promote tolerance. If sexual function is not optimal, then optimizing other hormonal systems such as thyroid and adrenal hormones may return sexual function at the lower target testosterone levels. As an example, with good thyroid and adrenal function, sex drive often persists to fairly low levels of testosterone. "

[jlguitar]

I find this variable dosing intriguing - I think it could have an effect on dopamine which obviously is a big booster of libido. Often guys report a big surge of well being at the beginning of TRT - possibly the rising T causes higher dopamine levels. But then things level off - unfortunately some people then revert back to pre trt levels energy and libdo wise even with total T nearing 1000- yes there could be many reasons for this, different for each individual who suffers. But...increasing T levels like this may have the ability to keep the body from down regulating dopamine as it is want to do. Maybe the body never gets a chance to catch on and play 'Kill Joy' due to the changing levels.

Many females on BHRT cycle their hormones and have different doses of T, E and P that they vary each day to mimic a younger woman's cycle. I have to remember what day of my cycle I am on and what hormone I need accordingly so I think it would not be too hard for some guys with libdio/ED issues that haven't been resolved by good T:E ratios to give something like this a whirl. Of course for those feeling great on their TRT, it would be crazy to mess with what's not broken.

From a more personal perspective, I have noticed that when my husband has started or stopped TRT for whatever reason, there is always a higher spike of libido for a little while. He is one who seems not to do that great on a standard dose. But I think this could take a lot of trial and error.

Jlguitar - have you ever used gels? I know many have trouble absorbing them but they do pulse closer to a more natural pattern than shots...apparently.

yes i have used testim and didnt like it much.I think my body likes changing hormone levels because it loved sutanon and i only needed 175mg of sust every 3 weeks and i felt great (5 times better than cypionate doing the half-pyramid system)there are alot of really smart guys on this forum that really know their trt and it stumped me to why some guys feel great on the same dosage every week and why some guys like changing dosages,i guess its the great mysteries of life.

[jlguitar]

Yes, if prolactin was elevated it would be the culprit for low dopamine but...some guys have prolactin in range and yet these issues persist.

You may have read the following by Dr Mariano. I think it sheds some good insight on this issue but doesn't offer much in the way of rememdy. Maybe JLguitar has stumbled upon a way of keeeping high enough levels of dopamine around with his system."

"The following is fairly speculative.

High levels of testosterone for long periods of time, can, I think, result in tolerance to the higher levels of dopamine in the brain. The initial almost euphoric feeling that initial TRT can eventually wane to a lesser level. When at hypogonadal levels for a long time, there may be suprasensitivity to dopamine that develops from the dopamine deficit of hypogonadism. This contributes to the high that results from TRT at the onset.

A problem for testosterone therapy is that there is no therapy that really mimics the daily fluctuations in testosterone production. Testosterone tends to be highest in the morning and fall gradually through the day. This means the dopamine levels in the brain will also follow a similar pattern. Testosterone treatment generally follows either a many day decay in level after a large peak (e.g. injections) or a very steady state level (e.g. transdermals or pellets).

Dopamine is one neurotransmitter that clearly can result in tolerance when present at high levels. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that needs to vary in concentration hour by hour. On of its functions is to provide a feeling of reward on certain events. A reward cannot last forever, it has to have a finite life or one cannot differentiated it as a reward. TRT generally does not have the frequent fluctuations in dopamine level during the course of the day that natural testotserone production lends.

Dopamine sensitivity improves once a deficit is created.

Going off TRT periodically, which is done by ASIH, for example, would then allow dopamine sensitivity to return.

In a way, if dopamine insensitivity is an issue, then one other possible solution would be to have once a month injections such as a colleague of mine uses for her TRT clients. This causes a large peak and then a return to baseline hypogonadism before the next injection. Dopamine levels follow the testosterone curves - in this case having large changes in levels through the month.

The thought of giving a person their whole 4 week supply of testosterone in one injection gives me pause - for example out of concern for a roller coaster experience. The large dose of injection also is a concern. Problems with supraphysiologic levels of testosterone and other hormones at the onsent of treatment is a concern. From her experience, her technique works well for her clients. Perhaps this is one technique that maintains dopamine sensitivity since dopamine levels are constantly changing rather than remaining at the same high levels.

"A third approach would be doing TRT in such a way as to avoid very high total testosterone levels - for example, going up to 400-500 ng/dl rather than 650-1000 ng/dl. This way, dopamine levels do not remain constantly high. There then is more headroom for the brain to produce more dopamine in the reward circuits of the brain on demend, without getting to high levels that promote tolerance. If sexual function is not optimal, then optimizing other hormonal systems such as thyroid and adrenal hormones may return sexual function at the lower target testosterone levels. As an example, with good thyroid and adrenal function, sex drive often persists to fairly low levels of testosterone. "

My prolacting levels and progesterone levels are all in the normal range.

[warchild]

yes thats half a tick on the syringe you have to be very precise when measuring when your drawing from the vial of test cyp.

yea i get that, but you are making trt more complicated. take the same dose and get bw to see where your levels are at. you make it sound as if you're trying to trick you body into adapting to levels at 10mg increments, which is pointless.

[Vettester]

yea i get that, but you are making trt more complicated. take the same dose and get bw to see where your levels are at. you make it sound as if you're trying to trick you body into adapting to levels at 10mg increments, which is pointless.

Exactly, the serum levels are going to rise and drop throughout the cycle from injection to injection, so it isn't like 10mg is going make the body think something's not the same. As stated earlier, you could increase 10mg of cyp, but your body could slightly increase its SHBG, thus effecting the free and bio T to drop lower than the week before.

[Alloy]

Thank you flatscat for your kind words. You are right about the raising and lowering of testosterone levels increasing libido and the feeling of happiness.For me sustanon 250 was the greatest test around but cypionate is okay,well most of us have a hard enough time getting our doctors to prescribe cypionate it would be extremely hard to get them to prescribe sustanon or a prop/cyp combo, those two products would work the best.

You do not want a Prop/Cyp blend, its a bit too strong for some people. I switched from it to regular cyp because the prop caused to many issues. The Doc explained to me that while Cyp will gradually and slowly build up serum levels, by Day 7 its been through one half life. Prop on the other hand spikes very quickly, but has a sharp drop off after 24 hours. By 36 hour its been through one half life and is pretty much done if you take into consideration that a person on HRT at most would only take 50mg of this. In other words, building up slowly to allow your body to adjust is best. Prop gave me a weird reaction and so I'm off of it.

[jlguitar]

You do not want a Prop/Cyp blend, its a bit too strong for some people. I switched from it to regular cyp because the prop caused to many issues. The Doc explained to me that while Cyp will gradually and slowly build up serum levels, by Day 7 its been through one half life. Prop on the other hand spikes very quickly, but has a sharp drop off after 24 hours. By 36 hour its been through one half life and is pretty much done if you take into consideration that a person on HRT at most would only take 50mg of this. In other words, building up slowly to allow your body to adjust is best. Prop gave me a weird reaction and so I'm off of it.

What kind of weird reaction did you get if you dont mind me asking.

[jlguitar]

yea i get that, but you are making trt more complicated. take the same dose and get bw to see where your levels are at. you make it sound as if you're trying to trick you body into adapting to levels at 10mg increments, which is pointless.

well its not like im splitting atoms its just 10mg bumps every week and i does make a big change in the way i feel.

[bmit]

thank you for the info. I am going to try doing this. My TRT protocol seems like i am just at baseline now. I have been on over 2 years.

[PPC]

thank you for the info. I am going to try doing this. My TRT protocol seems like i am just at baseline now. I have been on over 2 years.

Please let us know how your trial with this method goes.

[flatscat]

bump for related new post

[zaggahamma]

heres that other post that is similar to the newest in the hrt forum...

yes, bump, if youre still posting on this site

[arizona32]

I have noticed that everytime I change dose, whether up or down both libido and morning wood increase then level off as the dosage stabilizes. So, I can see how this strategy would be effective. Everyone has to find what works for them and if ed is an issue, it's good that you found a system that has dealt with the problem.