How quickly do E2 levels respond to pinning and AI's?

[forrest_and_trees]

Does anybody know how quickly the body's E2 actually responds to changes in T levels and AIs.

We know the half-life of Test etc, but what about E2? In other words, how quickly after pinning can E2 levels rise to the point of feeling the effects? On the same note, how quickly does E2 drop to the point of noticing *after* taking AI's like Arimidex or Anastrozole?

According to my blood work, my levels are in range however, it seems like I must have a small "sweet spot" because I feel like I'm on a roller coaster all the time.

Some days I feel great and my dick gets hard every time the wind blows. I even feel like my erections and climaxing are stronger, and my libido is through the roof. This might last a day or 2. Then on other days I have no interest at all in sex and it's much more difficult to get an erection. When I do, they are not nearly as hard. Some days I feel calm and at peace while other days I want to rip everyones head off for the slightest reasons.

When it comes to taking an AI to keep my levels down, I don't want to overshoot the mark because I begin to ache all over. My joints start to pop and click, and I get tired a lot. So I wait until I start to see signs my levels are increasing, such as becoming irritable, or retaining water, getting puffy nipples etc.

It sure would be nice if they had a home tester like they do for blood sugar, it would make life a hell of a lot more easy. There's got to be a happy medium. I currently take .5mg of Anastrozole every other time I pin, but like I said, it's a roller coaster.

Does anyone else have similar experiences?

[meathead320]

I'm also trying to get my E2 balanced out, specifically for the sex life.

Anyway, I know I first shot it too low, so waiting a few days for it to go back up, and I should be able to tell with el bonero starts hopping up again.

Have you considered taking half your dose twice as often?

How ofter are you injecting? 2x EW? If so maybe you should split your 0.5mg in half, and take 0.25mg Every 3rd day? Might be less of a roller coaster ride then.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

When I started TRT (50 mg two times a week for a 100 mg/wk), it was week 3 that the nipples got sore and tender. So it took me a little over 2 weeks for my E2 to get high enough for the gyno to start. I started taking 0.25 mg of Anastrozole each time I pinned the T. The first time I took the Anastrozole, My nipple soreness went away withiin 12 hours.

I don't know how long it would take for the Anastrozole to wear off if I stopped taking it. Taking the AI every other time you pin is definately going to cause a roller coaster ride with E2 levels. When my E2 gets too low I feel worse and less wood. I actually stopped the E2 for a while and reduced the amount of T I injected. I felt really great doing that but I still occaisionally had nipple soreness, and I wasn't recoving from my workouts as well. So now I'm back to 100 mg T and 0.25 Anastrozole everytime I pin. I just don't feel nearly as good with the AI. I have harder time getting up in the mornings, less interest in sex, less energy overall.

I see my doc this coming Wednesday and I'm going to get him to write a prescription for a lower dose Anastrozole and see if that helps.

[meathead320]

If 0.25 is lowering the E2 too much then nothing wrong with breaking the dose down lower.

The AR-R liquid version, liquidex can be dose even more carefully as there are not issues with breaking pills. 1ml = 1mg, and so 0.1ml = 0.1mg, so you could do as low as 0.1mg E3D if you wanted

From what I am experiencing right now, E2 too low is worse than too high.

[forrest_and_trees]

Yah, I pin twice a week, Tues mornings and Fri evenings. I think I'm going to give the .25mg every 3rd day a try. Unfortunately, Anastrozole and Arimidex have not been formulated for men, so the lowest dosage available is the 1mg tablet, which is already pretty damn small to begin with. So quartering with a pill cutter is kind of a drag. But I suppose it's worth it considering the alternative.

Thanks guys for the input.

F/T

[BOB89]

I'd have to look it up again but off the top of my head the half life of both E2 and A-dex is somewhere around 3 days. With E2 being on the shorter side and A-dex being a little longer.


I think its intresting such a tiny amount of adex is throwing you for such loops. I'm in the process of cutting my back from .25 7 days a week to something more moderate. Right now I'm at .25 2 out of every 3 days.

[forrest_and_trees]

Hey Bob, thanks for the info.

As always... everyone's different, I guess I'm just one of the lucky ones who's sensitive to it.

To put some perspective on the matter, before I began taking Adex, my E2 was 167 and after only 4 weeks to the day, it dropped to *37*. That's huge! Especially when you consider I was only taking .25mg EOD the first 2 weeks [which works out to 1mg a week] then bumped it to .5mg EOD or 2mg a week. So clearly I respond to it. On the flip side, I've had high E2 issues going back as far as my teenage years, and I'm 43 now. So susceptibility to fluctuations in E2 levels are just one of those things I have to live with, and getting it dialed in would sure make life that much easier for me.

Cheers.

F/T

[BOB89]

There are studies that show that the reduction in E2 taking .5 a day v 1mg a day for 10 days is almost exactly the same. The reduction in the test was appr half the amount of e2 in the body. I've done a limited amount of looking but haven't found any tests that show what smaller doses might do(such as .25 a day or even EOD).




For you science types the cite on the test is

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7, "Estrogen Suppression in Males"

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Yah, I pin twice a week, Tues mornings and Fri evenings. I think I'm going to give the .25mg every 3rd day a try. Unfortunately, Anastrozole and Arimidex have not been formulated for men, so the lowest dosage available is the 1mg tablet, which is already pretty damn small to begin with. So quartering with a pill cutter is kind of a drag. But I suppose it's worth it considering the alternative.
F/T

I do 0.25 mg twice a week of Anastrozole. It is still too much for me. I'm going to drop that down to something like 0.15 twice a week and try that. I take it on the days I pin. If you have a prescription, you can get it from a compounding pharmacy in lower doses. I get it in 0.25 mg doses from a compounding pharmacy based on a prescription for 0.25 mg capsules.

[zaggahamma]

I do 0.25 mg twice a week of Anastrozole. It is still too much for me. I'm going to drop that down to something like 0.15 twice a week and try that. I take it on the days I pin. If you have a prescription, you can get it from a compounding pharmacy in lower doses. I get it in 0.25 mg doses from a compounding pharmacy based on a prescription for 0.25 mg capsules.

this is on how much test..and how low did that dose of AI bring you?

[GotNoBlueMilk]

this is on how much test..and how low did that dose of AI bring you?

100 mg/wk of Test, divided into 2 shots a week. I haven't done bloodwork for E2 to find out, but I can tell you my symptoms: I went from slightly sore nipples but feeling on top of the world otherwise before the AI, to irritable, sore joints, brain fog, lack of energy, lack of sex drive, lack of morning wood altogether. Yesterday I sat at work wondering if life was even worth it. Totally depressed with life. This is not me, it's the low E2. Basically I feel worse than before I started HRT. But I know how great I can feel compared to before HRT so I will make adjustments.

I have my doc appt tomorrow and will see results of my bloodwork, but the bloodwork is from 80mg/wk of Test (divided into 2 shots a week) and no AI. Felt like a champ on that level but still had a little bit of sore nipple issues. Was not recovering nearly as well from workouts either. So after the bloodwork went back to 100mg/wk of Test since I had to add the AI back in anyway. Figured it was only for two weeks then would get some sort of prescription adjustment. Need to add in HCG anyway.

Hopefully my bloodwork E2 level will tell me my threshold of E2 before I start having gyno symptoms since I was right on the borderline with symptoms and had been there for 3 weeks with same protocol. What will really be annoying is if my E2 level is something like 30 or less! That means I have a tiny little E2 optimal range. Harder to hit those small ranges and keep it there.

[meathead320]

100 mg/wk of Test, divided into 2 shots a week. I haven't done bloodwork for E2 to find out, but I can tell you my symptoms: I went from slightly sore nipples but feeling on top of the world otherwise before the AI, to irritable, sore joints, brain fog, lack of energy, lack of sex drive, lack of morning wood altogether. Yesterday I sat at work wondering if life was even worth it. Totally depressed with life. This is not me, it's the low E2. Basically I feel worse than before I started HRT. But I know how great I can feel compared to before HRT so I will make adjustments.

I have my doc appt tomorrow and will see results of my bloodwork, but the bloodwork is from 80mg/wk of Test (divided into 2 shots a week) and no AI. Felt like a champ on that level but still had a little bit of sore nipple issues. Was not recovering nearly as well from workouts either. So after the bloodwork went back to 100mg/wk of Test since I had to add the AI back in anyway. Figured it was only for two weeks then would get some sort of prescription adjustment. Need to add in HCG anyway.

Hopefully my bloodwork E2 level will tell me my threshold of E2 before I start having gyno symptoms since I was right on the borderline with symptoms and had been there for 3 weeks with same protocol. What will really be annoying is if my E2 level is something like 30 or less! That means I have a tiny little E2 optimal range. Harder to hit those small ranges and keep it there.

When your not on the AI, when you have sore nips, but otherwise feel good it may be a good idea to just skip the AI then.

The way I look at it, if my penis is functioning well, and my blood pressure does not go up, then I really do not care if my E2 is slightly over 35pg/ml.

For me however no AI means too much E2, and those become issues. Too low and the penis is useless.

When E2 is too low there is no amount of PDE5 lowering drugs that would help, because there is no drive.

Too low I think is FAR worse than slightly high.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

I had puberty gyno. Sore nips is a major concern. I don't want the gyno growing from current nickle diameter to bigger.

[zaggahamma]

100 mg/wk of Test, divided into 2 shots a week. I haven't done bloodwork for E2 to find out, but I can tell you my symptoms: I went from slightly sore nipples but feeling on top of the world otherwise before the AI, to irritable, sore joints, brain fog, lack of energy, lack of sex drive, lack of morning wood altogether. Yesterday I sat at work wondering if life was even worth it. Totally depressed with life. This is not me, it's the low E2. Basically I feel worse than before I started HRT. But I know how great I can feel compared to before HRT so I will make adjustments.

I have my doc appt tomorrow and will see results of my bloodwork, but the bloodwork is from 80mg/wk of Test (divided into 2 shots a week) and no AI. Felt like a champ on that level but still had a little bit of sore nipple issues. Was not recovering nearly as well from workouts either. So after the bloodwork went back to 100mg/wk of Test since I had to add the AI back in anyway. Figured it was only for two weeks then would get some sort of prescription adjustment. Need to add in HCG anyway.

Hopefully my bloodwork E2 level will tell me my threshold of E2 before I start having gyno symptoms since I was right on the borderline with symptoms and had been there for 3 weeks with same protocol. What will really be annoying is if my E2 level is something like 30 or less! That means I have a tiny little E2 optimal range. Harder to hit those small ranges and keep it there.

yes..makes sense...i too have to go on how i feel as i dont do bloodwork often enough...and agree with meathead about i would deal with sensitive nips if no other bad sides were present and i was only slightly high on e2

[rekcerb]

What about using Aromasin as an alternative? I've heard good things... Although I couldn't recommend a proper dose, you would need to experiment.

[forrest_and_trees]

So I guess I'm not alone, therefore the obvious answer is to just become as familiar as possible with the various signs, and pay close attention to the indicators. Then dose accordingly until I find what works. Switching to .25mg doses does seem to lessen the extremes some, I just need to make sure I take it once I start to see the signs. And I guess in answer to my original question, response time can be pretty quick. I just finished off a vial today, I thought it was pretty much empty, so I just "juiced" my normal shot with the extra left over in the bottle. That was around 4 hours ago and already I can feel myself getting agro.... so I just popped a .25mg Anastorzole. I suppose now all I can do is sit back and wait to see how I feel later.

I too had adolescent gyno. I even remember having t-shirts with holes in the chest because I used to scratch myself all the time to hide it, because that would cause them to get hard and not look as obvious. This lasted into my twenties. Fast forward and since I've begun taking an AI, I've noticed a *significant* reduction in the size of my nipples. I actually look like a normal guy as long as I stay on top of it because they will get puffy again once the E2 levels rise. I still have quite a bit of weight to loose, thanks to all the f-'d up body chemistry I've had to live with, but I'm hoping that once I get down to a good weight, what gyno I have will go away with the excess body fat. So far a lot of the more obvious indicators of being over weight that I used to live with have already disappeared even though I still weigh more than I did when I started getting them. So I've learned that there are actually different types of body fat that respond differently to various causes and there's also water retention which also can massacred as body fat. I've certainly lost a *lot* of water I used to carry around which I often had mistaken for gaining fat. It's amazing what you learn when you get involved in this stuff.

Well gotta run. Cheers all!

F/T

[zaggahamma]

So I guess I'm not alone, therefore the obvious answer is to just become as familiar as possible with the various signs, and pay close attention to the indicators. Then dose accordingly until I find what works. Switching to .25mg doses does seem to lessen the extremes some, I just need to make sure I take it once I start to see the signs. And I guess in answer to my original question, response time can be pretty quick. I just finished off a vial today, I thought it was pretty much empty, so I just "juiced" my normal shot with the extra left over in the bottle. That was around 4 hours ago and already I can feel myself getting agro.... so I just popped a .25mg Anastorzole. I suppose now all I can do is sit back and wait to see how I feel later.

I too had adolescent gyno. I even remember having t-shirts with holes in the chest because I used to scratch myself all the time to hide it, because that would cause them to get hard and not look as obvious. This lasted into my twenties. Fast forward and since I've begun taking an AI, I've noticed a *significant* reduction in the size of my nipples. I actually look like a normal guy as long as I stay on top of it because they will get puffy again once the E2 levels rise. I still have quite a bit of weight to loose, thanks to all the f-'d up body chemistry I've had to live with, but I'm hoping that once I get down to a good weight, what gyno I have will go away with the excess body fat. So far a lot of the more obvious indicators of being over weight that I used to live with have already disappeared even though I still weigh more than I did when I started getting them. So I've learned that there are actually different types of body fat that respond differently to various causes and there's also water retention which also can massacred as body fat. I've certainly lost a *lot* of water I used to carry around which I often had mistaken for gaining fat. It's amazing what you learn when you get involved in this stuff.

Well gotta run. Cheers all!

F/T

come on just one more paragraph

[forrest_and_trees]

LOL JPKman... Got diarrhea of the fingers... too much coffee today. ...must ...stop ...typing.

...and breeeeath. =P

[forrest_and_trees]

Update: Been taking .25mg Anastrozole for about a month now and seem to be having much better luck. I typically take .25mg the day I pin, figuring that the first 24-48 hours are when my levels will peak, then .25mg approx 2 days later as needed. It seems to keep my E2 in line just enough. .50mg seemed to overshoot the mark for me. Been feeling much better, overall better moods, libido is through the roof on some days and far fewer days where I just generally felt moody. It's amazing how this stuff messes with you when not controlled. I have to say I have a little more understanding for some of the more "moody" women out there. I can think of a few past girlfriends where it would have been nice to have had a little AI to drop in their coffee. ...Might have been a few less thrown shoes. ...I'm just sayin.

[NOSUPERMODEL]

So I guess I'm not alone, therefore the obvious answer is to just become as familiar as possible with the various signs, and pay close attention to the indicators. Then dose accordingly until I find what works. Switching to .25mg doses does seem to lessen the extremes some, I just need to make sure I take it once I start to see the signs. And I guess in answer to my original question, response time can be pretty quick. I just finished off a vial today, I thought it was pretty much empty, so I just "juiced" my normal shot with the extra left over in the bottle. That was around 4 hours ago and already I can feel myself getting agro.... so I just popped a .25mg Anastorzole. I suppose now all I can do is sit back and wait to see how I feel later.

I too had adolescent gyno. I even remember having t-shirts with holes in the chest because I used to scratch myself all the time to hide it, because that would cause them to get hard and not look as obvious. This lasted into my twenties. Fast forward and since I've begun taking an AI, I've noticed a *significant* reduction in the size of my nipples. I actually look like a normal guy as long as I stay on top of it because they will get puffy again once the E2 levels rise. I still have quite a bit of weight to loose, thanks to all the f-'d up body chemistry I've had to live with, but I'm hoping that once I get down to a good weight, what gyno I have will go away with the excess body fat. So far a lot of the more obvious indicators of being over weight that I used to live with have already disappeared even though I still weigh more than I did when I started getting them. So I've learned that there are actually different types of body fat that respond differently to various causes and there's also water retention which also can massacred as body fat. I've certainly lost a *lot* of water I used to carry around which I often had mistaken for gaining fat. It's amazing what you learn when you get involved in this stuff.

Well gotta run. Cheers all!

F/T

Sounds EXACTLY like me. I still have tissue under both nipples, by far more under my left than right. I am waiting to see if the TRT helps any with mine. I just got started(3 shots), but I have not seen any major body composotion changes yet and I have not lost any weight. I also still retain waaaay to much water. I hope everything works out for me and I get the results some of the others on this forum have. My whole life I have always desired to have "that body". I hope this gets me as close as I can to that.

[flatscat]

guys, not saying you dont feel your best at a particular e2 number, but lets get real for a second, and this could be applied to your total and free t numbers along with everything else. The body does not work that way - there is a window for your levels that should be ok while you are in there - say 20-40 on e2 or something like that. I don't think if your e2 level drops or increases by 10 or 20 that it should effect your libido or anything else enough to make you sense such a dramatic change. this is of course with you starting out not high or low with your e2. I know, I know there are probably some that can - or think they can.

This would be like saying you can feel a difference between a total t of 680 and 800 - there is almost NOTHING about what we do with that is exact.

flats

[Vettester]

guys, not saying you dont feel your best at a particular e2 number, but lets get real for a second, and this could be applied to your total and free t numbers along with everything else. The body does not work that way - there is a window for your levels that should be ok while you are in there - say 20-40 on e2 or something like that. I don't think if your e2 level drops or increases by 10 or 20 that it should effect your libido or anything else enough to make you sense such a dramatic change. this is of course with you starting out not high or low with your e2. I know, I know there are probably some that can - or think they can.

This would be like saying you can feel a difference between a total t of 680 and 800 - there is almost NOTHING about what we do with that is exact.

flats

Totally agree

[forrest_and_trees]

It may not hold true for everyone but it seems to work for me. That said, I could be entirely wrong but either way, I'm happy with the results.

As always, much respect and I highly value your input since I am here to learn after all.

Cheers!

F/T

P.S. I reserve the right to change my mind at a later point.

...see what I did there?

[flatscat]

Yeah i caught that - look I am glad that what you are doing is working for you - that is all that matters after all. AND, so much of what we THINK effects outcomes of any treatment for our body. Let's just all try and not get hung up on a couple of pg/ml's.