Are we on WAY to friggin much?

[meathead320]

Hi all,

I’ve been thinking about this for a while now, and I am wondering if anyone else here feels the same.

Ok, this IS a steroid using board, after all, and a lot of us here have a history of steroid use , before TRT.

Obviously most of us went through a time period in our lives when even the idea of a naked woman was enough to be hard as an oak tree. We were not on any drugs back then. We were teenagers and our testosterone levels were in the upper 1/3rd of the range.

Many of the guys here are on 200mg EW, and some at 100mg EW, and I too have a rather liberal script and I can inject myself with up to 400mg a week and not run out of Cypionate (insurance demands I get a fresh vial every month, for bacterial safety concerns)

But right now my goal is to simply have lower blood pressure, consistently better erections, good cholesterol. Thats all.

Somehow I’ve got the feeling I’ve been still stuck in the more is better mentality.

Few weeks ago I dropped my dose from what was 300, to 120mg EW, even splitting up those to 60mg 2x EW.

I may even consider dropping it more, possibly as low as 40mg 2x EW.

Went over to http://www.steroidsource.net/calculator.htm calculator, and found that Depo Testosterone (thats Cypionate so far as I know) on as little as 40mg 2x EW would result in a daily mg supply fluctuating 13-10mg ED.

Even if we subtract 30% for the weight of the cypionate ester, we are now at only 9-7mg ED, which is actually quite GOOD considering the average man from age 24-30 only makes 4-7mg ED.

So going by the math here, 40mg 2x EW for a total of 80mg = 56mg EW – the 30% weight of ester, could possibly be enough?

Besides those of us here who already likely had an issue with too much E2 to begin with, wouldn’t 80mg then suffice?

I understand lots of guys are on 100mg EW too, and are over here on a regular basis talking about Arimidex and such, heck I am one of these guys.

That 100mg 1x EW shot gives a very high peak blood level of 19mg dropping down to 9mg during the weak. Minus the ester that is still 14 – 6 mg, and the 14 is likely where those high E2 sides are coming in, because that is really double the normal amount made in a day.

I’m even considering dropping my dose all the way down to 80mg, as 40mg 2x EW, and get my blood tested.

I’m suspecting that many of us here are under the mentality that we can indefinitely keep ourselves supraphysiologic, and then play polypharmacy in order to balance out sides. Taking Arimidex for the E2, a cholesterol drug, and Bystolic for blood pressure, and cialis for ED – this cannot be good for us long term.

To me that hardly sounds like testosterone replacement therapy, unless of course a blood level of 700ng/dl is resulting in low freeT, and high E2, obviously then Arimidex or Indoplex DIM, or whatever is needed, that’s sensible.

How about guys getting those issues with high E2 and the corresponding BP and ED issues who are walking around with 1400ng/dl on a 300-900 range? Well no Duh! Wouldn’t it make far more sense for these guys to simply cut back on the dose and aim for 700-800 ng/dl, and see if the E2 follows it down, along with the Blood Pressure, and possibly getting the morning wood?

Am I just pussing out on high dose TRT, OR are we still stuck in the performance enhancing mentality, and need to take a closer look at what real doses needed to put us into the ideal range really are lower than most of us, myslef included until recently, like to admit?

[zaggahamma]

didnt you post something like this already?

where your sole trt goal was for the best possible wood?

[meathead320]

Kind of, but I consider this different as its about total health, not just getting the best possible wood anymore. That has gotten much better, yet my BP is still mildly high 140's over 80's, and so forth, even doing a ton of cardio and losing 20 pounds.

So then I have to ask, WHY in light of doing a lot of cardio, and dropping my bodyfat down a lot, do I still have high BP? My E2 has to have dropped somewhat by lowering my dose, so I don't know if E2 is the only culprit in the hypertension.

Heck women, who have a lot more E2 than we do, tend to have lower blood pressure than men in general.

So the only thing I can think of, as to why my BP is not comming down, is that I simply still am on too much test.

[MACHINE5150]

i think 100mg EW is a good base.. some peoples receptors are more shot then others. i know a guy on here who is taking 150mg every 10 days or something and has normal blood levels.. he is 6'6" 280lbs though.. so, not sure if that matters or not.. but everyone is different.. if less is getting you what you want then by all means do less..and save the rest to do the whole "blast and cruise" method.. or if you don't ever want to cycle, save it and sell it to someone at your gym or something.. human grade stuff goes for a small fortune

[meathead320]

i think 100mg EW is a good base.. some peoples receptors are more shot then others. i know a guy on here who is taking 150mg every 10 days or something and has normal blood levels.. he is 6'6" 280lbs though.. so, not sure if that matters or not.. but everyone is different.. if less is getting you what you want then by all means do less..and save the rest to do the whole "blast and cruise" method.. or if you don't ever want to cycle, save it and sell it to someone at your gym or something.. human grade stuff goes for a small fortune

Now 6'6'' 280 is a big man. I would think he would needed a higher dose if anything, certainly not lower.

Really makes me consider dropping to 80 EW, with 40mg 2x EW as injections.

Heck, doing the 40mg 2x EW over 14 days 160 would have been injected.

Well, I'm going to stick to the 60mg 2x EW until my blood test on April 18th. Will see if I'm low or high then.

My goal is for the Free T to be in upper 1/3rd, and E2 to be around 20-30 pg/ml, we shall see.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

I was doing 40 mg 2x EW. My bloodwork was on the morning of my enjection day so the levels were a trough. My total T was about 720, free and bioavailable T was mid range. My E2 was 28. I'm 52 and 175 lbs, 19% bf (down from 29%).

I'm working out 4 days a week and my body just wasn't recoving well enough. I went back up to 50 mg 2x EW.

[meathead320]

I was doing 40 mg 2x EW. My bloodwork was on the morning of my enjection day so the levels were a trough. My total T was about 720, free and bioavailable T was mid range. My E2 was 28. I'm 52 and 175 lbs, 19% bf (down from 29%).

I'm working out 4 days a week and my body just wasn't recoving well enough. I went back up to 50 mg 2x EW.

Very interesting, Other than not recovering quite as fast as you would like, I mean total at 720, and mid range Free T and 28 E2 all look really good.

Besides not recovering as fast from your workouts how was everything else functioning? Blood pressure? morning wood? Cholesterol? General well being?

Have you taken a look at it since going back up to 50mg 2x EW?

[APIs]

Very interesting. Funny you mention the BP. I am on 200 mgs/week and my BP is consistently 140/80+. My Doc has been trying to control it with Bystolic & Atacand to no avail. This will be a topic of discussion on my visit with him next week.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Very interesting, Other than not recovering quite as fast as you would like, I mean total at 720, and mid range Free T and 28 E2 all look really good.

Besides not recovering as fast from your workouts how was everything else functioning? Blood pressure? morning wood? Cholesterol? General well being?

Have you taken a look at it since going back up to 50mg 2x EW?

My bloodwork was great. No RBC, cholesterol BP issues. Those numbers were the same as my baseline numbers two months before. Morning wood was great, felt on top of the world except for some sore nipples (yes with E2 @ 28 I get gyno symptomps).

It has only been 2 weeks since I went back to 50 mg 2x EW, so no new bloodwork.

[tonyinnh]

what insurance do you have?? just curious....

[Bullseye Forever]

Im on a high dose of TRT...my dose is 600mg every 10 days and yea thats a high dose,but thats the scrip from my endo,and ive been on that dose since last august and my test level as of last wednesday was 487ng/dl...i have no gyno or water issues,and im 6'5 280,i alos take zocor for high cholesterol,but my blood pressure stays in the 140/78 range,but has always run a little high on the top for a number of years...and ive been on TRT for 4 years,but not at that high dose,i started out at low doses and endo has had to increase over the last few years....all i can understand from my endo is that my body just requires alot of test,i dont understand it cause im not a doctor,and i still have ED problems sometimes,but i also take antidepressants as well,so that might be the cause for that,cause i have Anxiety Disorders...ive been wonderring myself if im taking to much test...and what side effects does it have in your body besides high BP,enlarged prostate..

[streeter]

Ive been on HRT for 6 months 200mg EW. Last week I checked my BP it was 116 over 74. I do cardio about 4 times a week and walk on the other days I average 12 to 15 miles a week. I lift 5 days a week.

[meathead320]

Im on a high dose of TRT...my dose is 600mg every 10 days and yea thats a high dose,but thats the scrip from my endo,and ive been on that dose since last august and my test level as of last wednesday was 487ng/dl...i have no gyno or water issues,and im 6'5 280,i alos take zocor for high cholesterol,but my blood pressure stays in the 140/78 range,but has always run a little high on the top for a number of years...and ive been on TRT for 4 years,but not at that high dose,i started out at low doses and endo has had to increase over the last few years....all i can understand from my endo is that my body just requires alot of test,i dont understand it cause im not a doctor,and i still have ED problems sometimes,but i also take antidepressants as well,so that might be the cause for that,cause i have Anxiety Disorders...ive been wonderring myself if im taking to much test...and what side effects does it have in your body besides high BP,enlarged prostate..

Do you spend much time in the woods? The reason I ask is that LYME disease can come back with false negatives on tests, and I know of one guy who was on half a gram a week of test to even feel good.

He had 2 LYME tests before, after a deer tick bite, and both were negative when tested by a GP.

Later he went to a LYME specialist who ran other tests and found it. He is being treated for it now and feels MUCH better.

He said that the body will scavange testosterone to help make cortisol, due to the LYME disease.

Just something to consider, being around 500ng/dl with 600mg EW, yikes, it looks like something in you is eating it.

[zaggahamma]

Do you spend much time in the woods? The reason I ask is that LYME disease can come back with false negatives on tests, and I know of one guy who was on half a gram a week of test to even feel good.

He had 2 LYME tests before, after a deer tick bite, and both were negative when tested by a GP.

Later he went to a LYME specialist who ran other tests and found it. He is being treated for it now and feels MUCH better.

He said that the body will scavange testosterone to help make cortisol, due to the LYME disease.

Just something to consider, being around 500ng/dl with 600mg EW, yikes, it looks like something in you is eating it.

interesting....its definitely the highes trt dose i've EVER seen and then esp. shown to only bring levels in the 400's

[meathead320]

Ok, found this, and I think it is interesting at the least: http://content.karger.com/produktedb...asp?doi=119417

Abstract

Background: There is substantial evidence that androgens may play a role in determining sex-specific blood pressure. Men are at higher risk for developing coronary heart disease or hypertension compared to premenopausal women. However, effects of androgens on the renal and cardiovascular system are complex. This review provides a critical overview of testosterone actions. Methods: We searched Pubmed library for experimental, animal and clinical studies, using the keywords ‘blood pressure’, ‘hypertension’, ‘testosterone’ and ‘androgens’. Results: While acute administration of testosterone seems to decrease vascular tone, the long-term net effect of androgens appears to be vasoconstriction via upregulation of thromboxane A2 expression, norepinephrine synthesis, angiotensin II expression, and endothelin-1 action. Furthermore, androgens cause cardiac hypertrophy, promote atherosclerosis, vascular remodelling and stimulate renal prohypertensive processes involving the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Androgens seem to promote oxidative stress in the kidney and may also play a role in the differentiation of brain areas involved in blood pressure regulation. Conclusion: The effects of sex steroids on different parts of the renal-vascular system are complex and often contradictory. In sum, net effects of androgen action seem to be vasoconstriction, atherosclerosis and stimulation of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Therefore, androgens may determine blood pressure and the prevalence of cardiovascular disease

I find this interesting because I have observed a pattern here. We want to feel GOOD, and many of us in the more is better state of mind, want to ride a blood value that is higher than the physiologic range.

Well, I'm starting to suspect than in a lot of guys (and it likely varies) simply being slightly above the physiologic range, long term can lead to moderately high BP, like 140's over 80's.

Even this level of BP can cause problems.

That is it, my last shot was 40mg, or two tick marks. May have been 45mg as I draw up a tiny bit of air into the syringe to push the amound in the needle in to me as well, but the point is I am dropping the dose way down, and for all intents and purposes, I'll call is 40mg 2x EW, for a total of 80.

The reason I will not be using a full 80 at once is the peak levels possibly going out of range. For the first time my goal is to stay UNDER 900 ng/dl on a 300-900 range.

MY BP has been 140's/80's for a long time now. In spite of doing a LOT of cardio, and eating a pretty clean diet, and losing 20 pounds of bodyfat. That should have dropped my by 20 points.

Even getting less E2 sides, and my Erections are getting better too. However I think both of those could still be even better, and the low hypertension cannot be helping.

So I suspect its the testosterone itself, being too much doing this.

In the future I may do a cycle here and there, but overall, I'm going to try to drop my test level, Free T, and E2 all down into the normal range. Obviouly the upper half, hopefully upper 1/3rd for the Test, and lower 1/3rd for the E2 is the goal, but most importantly to be in the physiologic range.

If my Test level is in the 700's, and free T is mid range, and E2 is < 30, I will be VERY happy, and I expect to see a drop in BP after a couple months if I can get and hold those blood values.

[flatscat]

It's all an individual thing (I know we have said it a thousand times). I didn't go to your link, but did it say what dose they were administrating? What the ave levels were in this study? Or was it just a theory based on many studies that had some common outcomes? I don't doubt what it says, but most studies out there are based on very high doses.

I think if we stay in the upper range, no matter what the dose is, then the benefits far out way the negatives - FOR MOST PEOPLE.

Some folks are just inclined to have high blood pressure, and almost anything may cause it to go higher, especially the increase in water retention associated with exogenous t (an AI may help with this), and the increase in RBC's and iron levels (donating blood may help with this).

Nice thread

[meathead320]

It's all an individual thing (I know we have said it a thousand times). I didn't go to your link, but did it say what dose they were administrating? What the ave levels were in this study? Or was it just a theory based on many studies that had some common outcomes? I don't doubt what it says, but most studies out there are based on very high doses.

I think if we stay in the upper range, no matter what the dose is, then the benefits far out way the negatives - FOR MOST PEOPLE.

Some folks are just inclined to have high blood pressure, and almost anything may cause it to go higher, especially the increase in water retention associated with exogenous t (an AI may help with this), and the increase in RBC's and iron levels (donating blood may help with this).

Nice thread

In short, that is the goal, upper range.

Thing is I've been above this for some time now, and I think that is the problem with my Blood Pressure anyway.

Sure there are those guys who never seen to have issues with BP, but in my case everything esle checks out.

Never had an issue with BP before being on test a long time. Had normal BP before steroids as well years back. Only 30 years old.

AI has not taken it down. Lots of cardio. Clean diet. Not overly fat.

My testosterone level however was >1500 ng/dl the last time it was checked. Likely this is the culprit, because it is the only thing, at least in my body, that is not even in the range, well that and my BP.

Obviously, for me anyway, the smart thing to do is to lower that back into the upper range.

I suspect I'm good at converting dose to blood level, so 40mg 2x EW it shal be.

Here is hoping things look better by April 18th on my labs.

[zaggahamma]

post became even more interesting...meathead please keep that aspect of your 140 blood pressure and how it changes if any when you stay on the 40-40

[meathead320]

post became even more interesting...meathead please keep that aspect of your 140 blood pressure and how it changes if any when you stay on the 40-40

No problem. Have a home device for Blood Pressure as well.

I will post blood values that I have asked my Doc to check on April 18th:

Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
DHT
E2

[APIs]

post became even more interesting...meathead please keep that aspect of your 140 blood pressure and how it changes if any when you stay on the 40-40

Not to hijack, but I just had my TRT Dr. annual visit today. I too have BP regularly @ 140-145/80-85 levels. I have been on Atacand & Bystolic for a couple months now with only marginal benefit. It was decided that I am staying on the Atacand because it helps with my Migraine Headaches. I am going off Bystolic due to lack of real benefit & it lowers my Heart Rate which hampers cardio. My Dr. definitely wants the BP down, but feels my TRT dosage of 200 mgs/week is probably not the main culprit. He feels that TRT may be playing a role, but my elevated BP is more realted to my size & the dynamics of this on the cardiovascular system. He is putting me on a slight diuretic, asking me to eliminate all salt, increase cardio, cut-back on NSAIDs and re-test in 3 months. He thinks this should have a positive effect without having to reduce TRT dosage. I do have elevated LDL levels which we will address with Crestor. I'll try & post my blood work when I have a chance...

[meathead320]

API's beside the BP meds your situation sounds a lot like mine.

Instead of BP meds I have been doing a ton of cardio, enough to sacrifice a decent amount of lean size too. Eating better, and dropped all the way down to 185 pounds. I still look like I lift weights, but would not be called a "powerful" looking guy anymore.

My BP is STILL 140's over 80's, so the only thing I have had out of range has been more testosterone than the top of my lab ranges. Everything else, even my bodyweight and such should all be for a BP level of around 110/60 but I'm mildy high instead.

I figure if I keep it at 40gm 2x EW weekly for a while, and it gets my blood values normal (goal is around 700 ng/dl on 300-900 range), then I will keep it there for several months and continue the cardio, eating right etc... see if the BP drops.

[JD250]

It is an individual thing but there is a hell of a difference between 100mg a week and 600mg every 10 days, shit!!

I started listening to my body and went from 220mg a week to 110 mg a week and I feel better BY FAR than I ever did on 220 and I quit taking that gawdammed anastrozol too. I feel great.

In general it seems like everyone who has successfully found their groove always ends up somewhere RELATIVELY close to 100mg a week, there will always be other things at play but I'm speaking about majorities not EVERYONE.

We seem to have a mindset that the scale of well being goes from the bottom and goes up, the bottom being where we feel the worst and the higher we go with test levels the better we feel.

Not true, I would suggest looking at that scale as going from side to side, left side being low test with feeling bad and all the symptoms....and the right side being high test levels with also feeling bad and having all the symptoms.

I've discovered that being right smack in the middle of that scale is where everything runs like a well oiled machine, I look at it like driving down the road and going from one ditch to the other, I want to be in my lane with the cruise control on and radio playin that old familiar song.

Hope that made sense. It seems like us TRTers have some strange ideas that if we take more it's like a little cycle......it aint........get yourself in the middle of the road and if you want to do a cycle then do a real cycle and then come back to the middle where you belong.

Listen to your body, not everyones blood work will be or should be the same. There is a range for a reason, being at the very top may not be a good place to be for an individual.

[zaggahamma]

It is an individual thing but there is a hell of a difference between 100mg a week and 600mg every 10 days, shit!!

I started listening to my body and went from 220mg a week to 110 mg a week and I feel better BY FAR than I ever did on 220 and I quit taking that gawdammed anastrozol too. I feel great.

In general it seems like everyone who has successfully found their groove always ends up somewhere RELATIVELY close to 100mg a week, there will always be other things at play but I'm speaking about majorities not EVERYONE.

We seem to have a mindset that the scale of well being goes from the bottom and goes up, the bottom being where we feel the worst and the higher we go with test levels the better we feel.

Not true, I would suggest looking at that scale as going from side to side, left side being low test with feeling bad and all the symptoms....and the right side being high test levels with also feeling bad and having all the symptoms.

I've discovered that being right smack in the middle of that scale is where everything runs like a well oiled machine, I look at it like driving down the road and going from one ditch to the other, I want to be in my lane with the cruise control on and radio playin that old familiar song.

Hope that made sense. It seems like us TRTers have some strange ideas that if we take more it's like a little cycle......it aint........get yourself in the middle of the road and if you want to do a cycle then do a real cycle and then come back to the middle where you belong.

Listen to your body, not everyones blood work will be or should be the same. There is a range for a reason, being at the very top may not be a good place to be for an individual.

well said

welcome

[GotNoBlueMilk]

I hate the "gawdammed anastrozol" too. I take a small amount and I feel like crap. I take none and I get sore nipples, even on 80mg/wk of T.

@meathead: So quick question on the home BP device. Is it accurate (enough) and are you happy with it? If so what one and features would you recomment? My BP hasn't changed since starting HRT, but I was 140/80 at the start. Need to watch that and get it down. I want to watch it closer and not rely on the machine at my grocery store.

[APIs]

@meathead: So quick question on the home BP device. Is it accurate (enough) and are you happy with it? If so what one and features would you recomment? My BP hasn't changed since starting HRT, but I was 140/80 at the start. Need to watch that and get it down. I want to watch it closer and not rely on the machine at my grocery store.

I have a wrist unit made by Armron. I took it with me & checked it against my Dr.s reading and it was within a few points. I also tried a cuff model, but it was not accurate & returned it.

[Bullseye Forever]

Do you spend much time in the woods? The reason I ask is that LYME disease can come back with false negatives on tests, and I know of one guy who was on half a gram a week of test to even feel good.

He had 2 LYME tests before, after a deer tick bite, and both were negative when tested by a GP.

Later he went to a LYME specialist who ran other tests and found it. He is being treated for it now and feels MUCH better.

He said that the body will scavange testosterone to help make cortisol, due to the LYME disease.

Just something to consider, being around 500ng/dl with 600mg EW, yikes, it looks like something in you is eating it.

Ive never thought about this,i do hunt alot,im from the south,so it sounds like something i should consider doing is getting tested....thanks

interesting....its definitely the highes trt dose i've EVER seen and then esp. shown to only bring levels in the 400's

yea i agree,most people on another board just flame me and says im just doing it(the dose) on my own,that no Endo would ever prescibe that much

[Bullseye Forever]

Yall's advice......i feel my dosage is to high,as several of you have commented on it here....the one thing im surprised about is that my Endocrinologist has never taken my E2 levels....i just assumed he has over the past 4 years,but he told me last week that he doesnt do test for estrogen levels,and im considering getting a 2nd opinion and going to another Endo to find out if what my levels are,what do yall think? Should I get a 2nd opinion?

[BOB89]

there is never anything wrong with getting a second opinion.

[zaggahamma]

Yall's advice......i feel my dosage is to high,as several of you have commented on it here....the one thing im surprised about is that my Endocrinologist has never taken my E2 levels....i just assumed he has over the past 4 years,but he told me last week that he doesnt do test for estrogen levels,and im considering getting a 2nd opinion and going to another Endo to find out if what my levels are,what do yall think? Should I get a 2nd opinion?

you know the answer to that question and it aint no just in case

[flatscat]

It is an individual thing but there is a hell of a difference between 100mg a week and 600mg every 10 days, shit!!

I started listening to my body and went from 220mg a week to 110 mg a week and I feel better BY FAR than I ever did on 220 and I quit taking that gawdammed anastrozol too. I feel great.

In general it seems like everyone who has successfully found their groove always ends up somewhere RELATIVELY close to 100mg a week, there will always be other things at play but I'm speaking about majorities not EVERYONE.

We seem to have a mindset that the scale of well being goes from the bottom and goes up, the bottom being where we feel the worst and the higher we go with test levels the better we feel.

Not true, I would suggest looking at that scale as going from side to side, left side being low test with feeling bad and all the symptoms....and the right side being high test levels with also feeling bad and having all the symptoms.

I've discovered that being right smack in the middle of that scale is where everything runs like a well oiled machine, I look at it like driving down the road and going from one ditch to the other, I want to be in my lane with the cruise control on and radio playin that old familiar song.

Hope that made sense. It seems like us TRTers have some strange ideas that if we take more it's like a little cycle......it aint........get yourself in the middle of the road and if you want to do a cycle then do a real cycle and then come back to the middle where you belong.

Listen to your body, not everyones blood work will be or should be the same. There is a range for a reason, being at the very top may not be a good place to be for an individual.

Nicely done. Don't know about the 100 or so being where most settle out though.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Nicely done. Don't know about the 100 or so being where most settle out though.

I think that number may be a little low too, but based on my skewed viewpoint formulated srtickly from my own experience, I think most people take too much. Must keep in mind though that 80-100/wk seems to be my optimal range so I wonder how anyone can find 200/wk their optimal range. I am sure the person who does 200/wk wonders how I can survive on 80/wk. I wish my body came with an owner's manual!

[meathead320]

Well, whatever those ideal dose is, I'm thinking that as far as blood values go, upper half of the physiologic range is the place to be.

Say 700 ng/dl on a 300-900 scale is a perfect for most guys.

Some guys may get there easily at 80mg EW, and some may get there at 200mg EW but the right place to be could easily still be similar blood levels.

For me, I know that 200mg, is way too much and putting me way over 900 and throws everything else out of place. - It DOES feel good for a while, like a few months, but after that slowly start to feel worse.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Well, whatever those ideal dose is, I'm thinking that as far as blood values go, upper half of the physiologic range is the place to be.

Say 700 ng/dl on a 300-900 scale is a perfect for most guys.

Some guys may get there easily at 80mg EW, and some may get there at 200mg EW but the right place to be could easily still be similar blood levels.

For me, I know that 200mg, is way too much and putting me way over 900 and throws everything else out of place. - It DOES feel good for a while, like a few months, but after that slowly start to feel worse.

At 80mg/wk my total T is 723. And yes I felt great at that level. Unfortunately my E2 was at 28 and I still have gyno symptoms at that level. I don't know why, but even a little AI kills my mood, gives me low grade muscle ache, and basically makes me feel crappy. Still working that one out. Body fat % has been reduced from 29% to 19%. Maybe when I get to 9% the AI won't be needed at all.

[meathead320]

At 80mg/wk my total T is 723. And yes I felt great at that level. Unfortunately my E2 was at 28 and I still have gyno symptoms at that level. I don't know why, but even a little AI kills my mood, gives me low grade muscle ache, and basically makes me feel crappy. Still working that one out. Body fat % has been reduced from 29% to 19%. Maybe when I get to 9% the AI won't be needed at all.

Well, if I were in a situation where I had morning wood every morning, good cholesterol, good blood pressure, and felt overall great, with all my values right in the correct part of the range, I would not screw with any AI, or any dose change.

I would just to deal with the nipples and I would just get the gyno surgery.

Either that or learn to love the sensitive nips

[dosXX]

v good thread meathead and bluemilk, you guys got my attention and will be following your progress.

[JD250]

Bullseye. get a second and a third opinion. A couple questions,

What's your work out like, are you active and somewhat fit?

Have you ever tried trt without any of the other meds you normally take?

Have you ever tried a different form of test or from a different company?

Definitely check into the lyme thing, there is no logical reason for the low levels, 600mg a week is a full blown cycle, I think the meds and the Lyme are suspect followed by the test itself, are you absolutely positive that this info is correct, 600mg every week?

[Bullseye Forever]

Bullseye. get a second and a third opinion. A couple questions,

What's your work out like, are you active and somewhat fit?

Have you ever tried trt without any of the other meds you normally take?

Have you ever tried a different form of test or from a different company?

Definitely check into the lyme thing, there is no logical reason for the low levels, 600mg a week is a full blown cycle, I think the meds and the Lyme are suspect followed by the test itself, are you absolutely positive that this info is correct, 600mg every week?

yes man,my dose is 600mg/every 10 days the presr.from my endo,and i use test cyp 200 i buy from the pharmacy....also my workout has been changed since i had shoulder surgery back in jan,still going through physical therapy right now,and have been working out since my surgery,but not with my injured arm,but will resume my workout after my surgeon releases me to do so,before my surgery i was on a bulking workout i work out 5 days a week,3 days a week cardio,a really good workout regime,ive gained alot,my diet is great,im around 15%BF now trying to reduce that,im 6'5 275 and in good shape for my age,44 ,ive never tried my trt without my medications,ive been on my meds for 15 years.i have OCD,GAD,Major depressive disorders,and the trt has helped and is helping ,but not as much as i though it might.......ive been working out for 6 years and im dedicated to my gym,it means everything to me and i take it seriously,so i guess im in good shape lol......i am going to get a 2nd opinion though as you said,i think it might help,it surely wont hurt anything,thanks for your post my friend

[JD250]

Wow, I'm 44 too and 6'4 and weighed 270 up until a while back when I started losing weight. weird I thought i was reading my stats for a second

I do know that anti depressants are the devil' even the drug reps and doctors don't "really" know everything they do to you. ED for sure but maybe thats what makes your test levels so unique, might check it out maybe experiment, maybe not.

[Bullseye Forever]

Wow, I'm 44 too and 6'4 and weighed 270 up until a while back when I started losing weight. weird I thought i was reading my stats for a second

I do know that anti depressants are the devil' even the drug reps and doctors don't "really" know everything they do to you. ED for sure but maybe thats what makes your test levels so unique, might check it out maybe experiment, maybe not.

i agree,i think the antidepressants are doing more than what the doctors suggest as you said,they dont know what all they do to your hormones

[zaggahamma]

i agree,i think the antidepressants are doing more than what the doctors suggest as you said,they dont know what all they do to your hormones

dont think they care...they want patients not healthy people