HCG and chest sencitivity

[joslan]

'morning guys,

i followed BASS recommendation and with the help of Nelson Vergel, i finally went to a clinic and got tons of info. Consequently, two weeks ago, they added 350ui of HCG on my 4th and 5th day. I feel good ans horny as hell BUT, after the 2 weeks i started feeling sensitivity to my chest. HCG seems to be notorious to spike E2 but, i dont know if it could do that in 2 weeks and it was not necessarily concentrated on the nipple area. My new Dr suggested that i stop using HCG for a week or so and see if this goes away and also prescribed Arimidex just in case HCG is the culprit and that i still want to continue its usage. In one hand i really enjoy the benefit of HCG but i am not sure if i really want to add a new med and possibly open a new can of worm. My last injection was last Wednesday and the intermittent sensation was gone by Sunday night /Monday - i have not injected HCG in 6 days. I do not have experience with any of this but i am not really convinced that HCG would actually be responsible for the sensitivity because besides being mild it was felt all over the chest and not necessarily concentrated in the nipple area. Just to see if HCG is the real culprit, would injecting again, without AI, would cause me any harm? SOme of you may remember me, I am relatively new to TRT and I could really benefit from your experience. Thanks guys - Joslan

[steroid.com 1]

Good post Jos!

First, HCG will increase intra-testicular E2 especially if you inject alot in a short time period and it's very difficult to manage with an AI. This is why you should be injecting low doses more frequently. 700 iu in two days is a bit much so you could be sensitive to HCG OR had a baseline E2 level that was pushed over the edge with the addition of the HCG.

I would think it's more the later then the former.

I would do two things:

1. Stay on the AI; you need this anyway. BTW, it's ideal if you can take the AI in smaller doses more frequently as well. Take it at the same time you inject your HCG below.
2. Spread out your HCG injections to E3D with 225 iu per injection. This provides the same amount of HCG but does not "bang" the boys hard - like 700 iu in 2 days - and provides for a more natural and consistent level of HCG.

Much has been written on this so do some research and see what the other guys have to say here. BUT will say this; you need HCG and the fact that the clinic has prescribed it for you along with an AI means they know what they are doing. So, discuss my suggestion with them if you'd like and see what they say but it sounds like you're in good hands.

You may also want to get a new E2 sensitivity assay as well just to see where you are at as it will tell you much.

And hey, welcome to the community

[bass]

'morning guys,

i followed BASS recommendation and with the help of Nelson Vergel, i finally went to a clinic and got tons of info. Consequently, two weeks ago, they added 350ui of HCG on my 4th and 5th day. I feel good ans horny as hell BUT, after the 2 weeks i started feeling sensitivity to my chest. HCG seems to be notorious to spike E2 but, i dont know if it could do that in 2 weeks and it was not necessarily concentrated on the nipple area. My new Dr suggested that i stop using HCG for a week or so and see if this goes away and also prescribed Arimidex just in case HCG is the culprit and that i still want to continue its usage. In one hand i really enjoy the benefit of HCG but i am not sure if i really want to add a new med and possibly open a new can of worm. My last injection was last Wednesday and the intermittent sensation was gone by Sunday night /Monday - i have not injected HCG in 6 days. I do not have experience with any of this but i am not really convinced that HCG would actually be responsible for the sensitivity because besides being mild it was felt all over the chest and not necessarily concentrated in the nipple area. Just to see if HCG is the real culprit, would injecting again, without AI, would cause me any harm? SOme of you may remember me, I am relatively new to TRT and I could really benefit from your experience. Thanks guys - Joslan

Joslan, i have this sensation right now, but also on my belly and sometimes on my thighs! I been taking 0.5 mgs AI ed 6 days a week, but i am also doing a light blast 300/300 test and deca ! so not sure whats causing what, but i expected to feel these sensations anyway due to the blast. i agree with GDevine, stay on hCG and take AI, and as GD suggested do a blood work to see where your E2 is then go from there. i found a good dose for AI which works great for me, 1 mg per 100 mgs test! and i take it in halves!

[joslan]

Joslan, i have this sensation right now, but also on my belly and sometimes on my thighs! I been taking 0.5 mgs AI ed 6 days a week, but i am also doing a light blast 300/300 test and deca! so not sure whats causing what, but i expected to feel these sensations anyway due to the blast. i agree with GDevine, stay on hCG and take AI, and as GD suggested do a blood work to see where your E2 is then go from there. i found a good dose for AI which works great for me, 1 mg per 100 mgs test! and i take it in halves!

Exactly the same for me Bass, i also felt something on my belly and around the trunk in general. i should have Arimidex delivered hopefully Saturday or next week. Thanks Bass...

[joslan]

Good post Jos!

First, HCG will increase intra-testicular E2 especially if you inject alot in a short time period and it's very difficult to manage with an AI. This is why you should be injecting low doses more frequently. 700 iu in two days is a bit much so you could be sensitive to HCG OR had a baseline E2 level that was pushed over the edge with the addition of the HCG.

I would think it's more the later then the former.

I would do two things:

1. Stay on the AI; you need this anyway. BTW, it's ideal if you can take the AI in smaller doses more frequently as well. Take it at the same time you inject your HCG below.
2. Spread out your HCG injections to E3D with 225 iu per injection. This provides the same amount of HCG but does not "bang" the boys hard - like 700 iu in 2 days - and provides for a more natural and consistent level of HCG.

Much has been written on this so do some research and see what the other guys have to say here. BUT will say this; you need HCG and the fact that the clinic has prescribed it for you along with an AI means they know what they are doing. So, discuss my suggestion with them if you'd like and see what they say but it sounds like you're in good hands.

You may also want to get a new E2 sensitivity assay as well just to see where you are at as it will tell you much.

And hey, welcome to the community

Thank you so much for the info. My Dr prescribed 350UI 2 days in a row...!!! With the info you just provided me, i better understand how it works - just like Cypionate ... now, let me ask you, i do not have Amridex on hand, should be delivered Saturday or next week, would you recommend or would it harm me if i inject HCG at a lower dose while waiting for the AI? My last blood work (Quest Lab) showed my Estradiol as being at 26 on a scale of x to 29. I just called a nurse and will have it checked again Friday morning. Please let me know about inject a lower daose of HCG with AI while i am waiting or should i simply wait? Thanks Gdevine, this really makes me feel better now... - Joslan

[steroid.com 1]

Thank you so much for the info. My Dr prescribed 350UI 2 days in a row...!!! With the info you just provided me, i better understand how it works - just like Cypionate... now, let me ask you, i do not have Amridex on hand, should be delivered Saturday or next week, would you recommend or would it harm me if i inject HCG at a lower dose while waiting for the AI? My last blood work (Quest Lab) showed my Estradiol as being at 26 on a scale of x to 29. I just called a nurse and will have it checked again Friday morning. Please let me know about inject a lower daose of HCG with AI while i am waiting or should i simply wait? Thanks Gdevine, this really makes me feel better now... - Joslan

Jos - As taking lower doses of HCG more frequently is the ideal protocol as it keeps intra-testicular E2 under control. HCG can increase E2 but it takes large amounts and you're not taking very large amounts even at 350 back to back. Like I said, IF your baseline E2 was high normal the HCG MIGHT have pushed you over and that's why you may be feeling neg sides. Besides the sensitivity in the chest do you have any other sides of high E2? Getting cold easier? Joints ache? Feel like crap? No libido? Sleepy...?

When did you have the BW where the E2 at 26...was that pre or post T protocol?

To answer your question; I would spread out the 350 iu injections a few days a part each week. That will go a long way to keep intra-testicular E2 levels from spiking. With your E2 level being 26 I would just keep the dosage the same only spread out the days that you take them and wait till your AI arrives. HCG does not aromatase at the same rate Test does and you're not taking enough HCG for your levels to rise very fast. Make sense?

Also, take your AI on the same day you inject your Test as the half life of both are about the same so as your T metabolizes the AI does so at the same rate keeping E2 really under control.

HCG is powerful hormone but taking in small and frequent doses does a great job of keep the testicles functioning properly, keep E2 under control and a real nice side benefit is the added natural Test they boys produce.

There's good research out there demonstrating the effectiveness of the 250 iu EOD dosing; I do it and have great results. My last BW had my E2 at 22.9 on 120 mg of Test Cyp per week (split into two doses of 60 mg along with .5 mg of AI per injection) and 250 HCG every other day.

I have a sneaking suspicion that feelings that you have are not E2 related.

How long have you been on your Test and what is your protocol.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Take it from a guy who is very sensative to E2, had puberty gyno, and has had to work to keep the gyno in check under HRT. Gyno sensativity is not limited to the nipple area alone. You can also get sensativity in other areas of the chest, and will develope hard nodules in those areas if it goes unchecked. My gyno symptoms start at 28 E2 blood levels.

For me, HCG did require more AI. My leydig cells are very responsive to LH and respond well to HCG. I would be willing to bet you had low baseline LH levels before you started HRT. If so, your leydig cells probably respond well to HCG too.

I understand your hesitation to add yet another chemical you are putting into your body; however, given the choice between HCG and no AI, I would go with the HCG option. In the long run you are much better off. I only do 100 IUs of HCG two times a week, and my boys are staying nice and plump (they had shriveled up a lot prior to starting HCG). A lower does of HCG may work for you, but if your boys are shrinking, it isn't enough. Consider taking GDevine's advice. Break your amount out from back to back days and do it twice a week or even 3 times a week.

When you decide to restart the HCG, try 100 mg 3 days a week. After a couple weeks if you have had no issues, maybe up that to 150 mg 3 days a week. After two more weeks, if no issues go to 200 mg 3 days a week. Top out at 250 mgs 3 days a week if that works ok for you. You need to do an amount that keeps the boys plump, or you aren't taking enough. If you end up having to do the AI, then that may just be what you have to do. HRT w/o HCG is not a good idea.

[steroid.com 1]

Wow GNBM, 100 iu twice a week! I guess the good part there is your HCG monthly bill is manageable

Crisler calls for 250 iu two and one day before T injection. I see the logic there but everything I've read on EOD makes sense to me and it did to my Doc, who, incidentally, follows Crisler's HCG protocol. He really didn't have a problem with it as the amount was close to the same each week and he understood my concern of E2 management.

It's worked for me!

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Wow GNBM, 100 iu twice a week! I guess the good part there is your HCG monthly bill is manageable

Crisler calls for 250 iu two and one day before T injection. I see the logic there but everything I've read on EOD makes sense to me and it did to my Doc, who, incidentally, follows Crisler's HCG protocol. He really didn't have a problem with it as the amount was close to the same each week and he understood my concern of E2 management.

It's worked for me!

Yeah, seems like an awful small amount to me too.

Pre-HRT my LH and FSH were both very low. I didn't know it at the time, but this is what was causing my low T. Anyway, when I added HCG to my potocol 12 weeks after starting HRT, it was 250 IU 2x/week. I just didn't feel as weel as before I started HCG. The biggest part of this is because I had my T levels at the right place for me. The HCG stimulated my boys and my T started getting higher. Increaing my Test Cyp some will do this to me too. I really am at the sweet spot for feeling well with my T levels. The HCG also added to my gyno control issue in a couple of ways.

After about a month of 250 IU 2x/week my boys fully inflated back to their former glory. At that time I dropped down to 100 IUs 2x/week and have been fine. Keep in mind I am also taking Letro as my AI, which stimulates LH production. I really thiink the Letro is why I can get away with a lower amount of HCG, but this is purely speculation. I obviously could consider dropping my Test Cyp amount and getting HCG to 250 IU EOD, but since my boys are responding well (I take that to mean the leydig cells are doing their job) to my current script and I feel well I see no reason to juggle things around and start over trying to find the sweet spot.

I agree with you whole heartedly that this is a low amount. Most people would not do well to follow my protocol anyway. 80 mg/week of T and 200 IUs of HCG a week just isn't enough for most people. But more for me means night sweats, tension headaches, muscle cramps, and I don't feel as great as I do at this level. Right now I feel on top of the world and tons of energy.

[joslan]

Jos - As taking lower doses of HCG more frequently is the ideal protocol as it keeps intra-testicular E2 under control. HCG can increase E2 but it takes large amounts and you're not taking very large amounts even at 350 back to back. Like I said, IF your baseline E2 was high normal the HCG MIGHT have pushed you over and that's why you may be feeling neg sides. Besides the sensitivity in the chest do you have any other sides of high E2? Getting cold easier? Joints ache? Feel like crap? No libido? Sleepy...?

When did you have the BW where the E2 at 26...was that pre or post T protocol?

To answer your question; I would spread out the 350 iu injections a few days a part each week. That will go a long way to keep intra-testicular E2 levels from spiking. With your E2 level being 26 I would just keep the dosage the same only spread out the days that you take them and wait till your AI arrives. HCG does not aromatase at the same rate Test does and you're not taking enough HCG for your levels to rise very fast. Make sense?

Also, take your AI on the same day you inject your Test as the half life of both are about the same so as your T metabolizes the AI does so at the same rate keeping E2 really under control.

HCG is powerful hormone but taking in small and frequent doses does a great job of keep the testicles functioning properly, keep E2 under control and a real nice side benefit is the added natural Test they boys produce.

There's good research out there demonstrating the effectiveness of the 250 iu EOD dosing; I do it and have great results. My last BW had my E2 at 22.9 on 120 mg of Test Cyp per week (split into two doses of 60 mg along with .5 mg of AI per injection) and 250 HCG every other day.

I have a sneaking suspicion that feelings that you have are not E2 related.

How long have you been on your Test and what is your protocol.

What you say makes sense to me, i dont know much but, it makes sense. I read many times where guys were doing 1000UI but again i dont understand all the mechanism. I have been injecting Cypionate for the past 5 months; i am injectring 100mg every Friday mid-morning, nothing else was added to the protocol until i was referred to this specialist. I had BW done on April 27th, just before my 8th injection. I started HCG 2 weeks ago, the protocol was 350UI on the 4th and 5th day. As far as having other side effects, i dont have any of those you mentioned; i am not getting cold, or sleepy, no joint pain and dont have low libido, as a matter of fact, last weekend my libido could not be better. I read your comment in regards to the possibility this sensation might not related to a spike of E2!! would you think or suggest i should restart HCG at a lower dose with more frequent injection and see if this sensation is coming back or more persistent? it is difficult for me to accurately describe this.. there is no pain, it is not really itchy; itchy for me is like a mosquito bite or something that is sort of systematic, like every time your shirt touch your nipples then you get a reaction; i felt a very mild, similar, sensation a couple of times in a week. let me know what you think
Thanks Gdevine for your support and advices - Joslan

[joslan]

Take it from a guy who is very sensative to E2, had puberty gyno, and has had to work to keep the gyno in check under HRT. Gyno sensativity is not limited to the nipple area alone. You can also get sensativity in other areas of the chest, and will develope hard nodules in those areas if it goes unchecked. My gyno symptoms start at 28 E2 blood levels.

For me, HCG did require more AI. My leydig cells are very responsive to LH and respond well to HCG. I would be willing to bet you had low baseline LH levels before you started HRT. If so, your leydig cells probably respond well to HCG too.

I understand your hesitation to add yet another chemical you are putting into your body; however, given the choice between HCG and no AI, I would go with the HCG option. In the long run you are much better off. I only do 100 IUs of HCG two times a week, and my boys are staying nice and plump (they had shriveled up a lot prior to starting HCG). A lower does of HCG may work for you, but if your boys are shrinking, it isn't enough. Consider taking GDevine's advice. Break your amount out from back to back days and do it twice a week or even 3 times a week.

When you decide to restart the HCG, try 100 mg 3 days a week. After a couple weeks if you have had no issues, maybe up that to 150 mg 3 days a week. After two more weeks, if no issues go to 200 mg 3 days a week. Top out at 250 mgs 3 days a week if that works ok for you. You need to do an amount that keeps the boys plump, or you aren't taking enough. If you end up having to do the AI, then that may just be what you have to do. HRT w/o HCG is not a good idea.

Thanks GNBM, i am expecting to get Arimidex sometime mid next week; I not against the idea, if this is not going to harm anything, of restarting HCG at a lower dose let's say 3 times a week, without AI. Again this is just me and i dont know enough about HRT to make my own opinion. Speaking of opinion, when would you think would be the most appropriate time to take HCG considering i am injecting Cypionate on Friday morning? Thanks again - Joslan

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Thanks GNBM, i am expecting to get Arimidex sometime mid next week; I not against the idea, if this is not going to harm anything, of restarting HCG at a lower dose let's say 3 times a week, without AI. Again this is just me and i dont know enough about HRT to make my own opinion. Speaking of opinion, when would you think would be the most appropriate time to take HCG considering i am injecting Cypionate on Friday morning? Thanks again - Joslan

Someone else should answer this question. I inject T twice a week, and do HCG on the same day. I started out doing HCG the day before my T injection, but I got tired of sticking needles 4 days a week. God help me if I ever become diabetic and have to do insuline 3 times a day.

[steroid.com 1]

Someone else should answer this question. I inject T twice a week, and do HCG on the same day. I started out doing HCG the day before my T injection, but I got tired of sticking needles 4 days a week. God help me if I ever become diabetic and have to do insuline 3 times a day.

Well the good news GNBM is that the odds of becoming diabetic on a TRT is ridiculously low if not impossibe!

Another great benefit of TRT

[steroid.com 1]

What you say makes sense to me, i dont know much but, it makes sense. I read many times where guys were doing 1000UI but again i dont understand all the mechanism. I have been injecting Cypionate for the past 5 months; i am injectring 100mg every Friday mid-morning, nothing else was added to the protocol until i was referred to this specialist. I had BW done on April 27th, just before my 8th injection. I started HCG 2 weeks ago, the protocol was 350UI on the 4th and 5th day. As far as having other side effects, i dont have any of those you mentioned; i am not getting cold, or sleepy, no joint pain and dont have low libido, as a matter of fact, last weekend my libido could not be better. I read your comment in regards to the possibility this sensation might not related to a spike of E2!! would you think or suggest i should restart HCG at a lower dose with more frequent injection and see if this sensation is coming back or more persistent? it is difficult for me to accurately describe this.. there is no pain, it is not really itchy; itchy for me is like a mosquito bite or something that is sort of systematic, like every time your shirt touch your nipples then you get a reaction; i felt a very mild, similar, sensation a couple of times in a week. let me know what you think
Thanks Gdevine for your support and advices - Joslan

Yes. Both GNBM and I have made a number of suggestions here for you; read above. You need HCG.

Split your test injections to twice a week like Monday AM and Thursday PM. At the same time do 250 iu of HCG. You can also split your AI dosage and take that at the same time as well. Like GNBM stated, injecting 4 times a week for some can be a real pain in the ass...literally As for me, it doesn't bother me.

The point is, you need HCG. Lower your dose to 250 iu and do twice a week and see how you feel.

[joslan]

Yes. Both GNBM and I have made a number of suggestions here for you; read above. You need HCG .

Split your test injections to twice a week like Monday AM and Thursday PM. At the same time do 250 iu of HCG. You can also split your AI dosage and take that at the same time as well. Like GNBM stated, injecting 4 times a week for some can be a real pain in the ass...literally As for me, it doesn't bother me.

The point is, you need HCG. Lower your dose to 250 iu and do twice a week and see how you feel.

Thanks guys, i will certainly follow the suggested protocol for HCG and AI - not sure if i want to split the T injection in two as it is not very pleasant because it seems i have this unique ability to hit a nerve one out of three injection... Tell me, if i keep on with my current schedule, would it be ok to inject T + HCG and take arimidex on Friday then on Tuesday, injecting HCG and taking arimidex? please let me know if this makes sense and ONE LAST QUESTION: are there any side effects of Arimidex that i should know about? thanks Joslan

[steroid.com 1]

Thanks guys, i will certainly follow the suggested protocol for HCG and AI - not sure if i want to split the T injection in two as it is not very pleasant because it seems i have this unique ability to hit a nerve one out of three injection... Tell me, if i keep on with my current schedule, would it be ok to inject T + HCG and take arimidex on Friday then on Tuesday, injecting HCG and taking arimidex? please let me know if this makes sense and ONE LAST QUESTION: are there any side effects of Arimidex that i should know about? thanks Joslan

Take both your T and AI all on the same day. Split your HCG as you stated.

Neg side of too much AI is your E2 tanks (below 20) and you will have a lot of not so good symptoms. Do a search on those neg sides here (or Google) so you are aware of what to look for.

[joslan]

Take both your T and AI all on the same day. Split your HCG as you stated.

Neg side of too much AI is your E2 tanks (below 20) and you will have a lot of not so good symptoms. Do a search on those neg sides here (or Google) so you are aware of what to look for.

i did some research and yes "a lot of no so good symptoms" it is... i will check that out for sure. What i dont get is, although my doc is considered a specialist in the field, he initially prescribed Arimidex 0.5 mg every day, which, if i am understanding you guys, could lower my level of estrogen rapidly. a question comes to mind: do i need a "loading" period of AI before resuming HCG? I want to thank you guys for your unconditional support - i think i am good to go frmo here. Thanks again - Joslan

[steroid.com 1]

i did some research and yes "a lot of no so good symptoms" it is... i will check that out for sure. What i dont get is, although my doc is considered a specialist in the field, he initially prescribed Arimidex 0.5 mg every day, which, if i am understanding you guys, could lower my level of estrogen rapidly. a question comes to mind: do i need a "loading" period of AI before resuming HCG? I want to thank you guys for your unconditional support - i think i am good to go frmo here. Thanks again - Joslan

Your AI dosage is based primarily on your liver's ability to 1) metabolize E2 and 2) the amount of aromatase enzyme your body produces. General rule of thumb for most TRT Docs who "get it" is 1 mg of AI for each 100 mg of Test and eval about 6 to 8 week thereafter.

The half life of AI is about the same as Test so taking both at the same time means more stable panels and better control over E2.

[joslan]

Your AI dosage is based primarily on your liver's ability to 1) metabolize E2 and 2) the amount of aromatase enzyme your body produces. General rule of thumb for most TRT Docs who "get it" is 1 mg of AI for each 100 mg of Test and eval about 6 to 8 week thereafter.

The half life of AI is about the same as Test so taking both at the same time means more stable panels and better control over E2.

Good!!!.. OK so, since i am injecting 100mg of Cypionate , this means, i will take 1 mg of AI the very same day i am injecting. You dont want me or there is no need to spread it out at .5mg twice a week, correct? I go the HCG part. thanks again GDevine, it is really appreciated. Joslan

[steroid.com 1]

Good!!!.. OK so, since i am injecting 100mg of Cypionate, this means, i will take 1 mg of AI the very same day i am injecting. You dont want me or there is no need to spread it out at .5mg twice a week, correct? I go the HCG part. thanks again GDevine, it is really appreciated. Joslan

Jos - Just my opinion of course; but I like spreading things out, not so much for how the esters are cleaved but for better E2 management. I split my 120 mg of Test into two 60 mg injected Monday AM and Thursday PM. At the same time of the injection I take .5 mg of AI. Some guys do well on once a week others twice a week. Test it for yourself and see how you feel. You be the judge.

[joslan]

Jos - Just my opinion of course; but I like spreading things out, not so much for how the esters are cleaved but for better E2 management. I split my 120 mg of Test into two 60 mg injected Monday AM and Thursday PM. At the same time of the injection I take .5 mg of AI. Some guys do well on once a week others twice a week. Test it for yourself and see how you feel. You be the judge.

I am thinking to follow your protocol; one question comes to mind... how do i start splitting and injecting Cypionate twice a week. I mean... I already injected 120 Mg earlier today (Friday), should i start injecting 60 Mg this coming Tuesday? or should i wait until NEXT Friday and only inject 60 Mg and so on? I hope i am making sense and yo understand my question. Thanks GD and have a great weekend - Joslan

[steroid.com 1]

I am thinking to follow your protocol; one question comes to mind... how do i start splitting and injecting Cypionate twice a week. I mean... I already injected 120 Mg earlier today (Friday), should i start injecting 60 Mg this coming Tuesday? or should i wait until NEXT Friday and only inject 60 Mg and so on? I hope i am making sense and yo understand my question. Thanks GD and have a great weekend - Joslan

Wail till next Friday and do 60 mg in the AM say before your shower then another 60 mg on Monday night say before bed. Keep the frequency the same there after. You will be fine. Same amount just dosed differently.