Rethinking TRT

[bbray]

I am wondering if there may be a possibility that I don't need TRT. As I mentioned in another post I am 32 and my total T was 182. But I got to thinking that maybe it's not really that low normally. Over the past few years(approximately 3.5 years) I have been depressed. Part of the way I dealt with that depression was to drink everyday. My drinking consisted of 2-3 beers a night and on weekends 4-6. I read that alcoholism can cause low T. But in the book "Testosterone " the author says 2 beers a night max is okay in that it isn't too bad on the T. Could that amount of alcohol consumption cause my T levels to be that low(of course I found out I had hypothyroidism as well which is being treated)?

I started test and HCG over a week ago(so far 2 shots of 160mg test and 2 shots 500IU HCG). I know the full effect should take about 3-4 weeks, but in the last few days I have felt better than I have in a very long time. My energy is great, libido is great, and I haven't been depressed. Of course I haven't been drinking so as not to hurt T levels and waste my money(mine isn't covered by insurance as I went to a doc in Florida and I paid pretty big bucks for the treatment). Also my thoughts are very clear for the first time in a long time which is what makes me think that maybe my low T was caused by the drinking. If that were the case then I could be hurting my natural T production and maybe never be able to turn back.

So, could that relatively low amount of drinking cause T levels that low? Also, I don't know if this could be indicative of a life of low T but although I was always very athletic when I was younger(was even in the army) I was always skinny and very hard to put on muscle. Also after tons of unprotected sex in my younger years I never got a girl pregnant. Don't know if that matters but it may.

[NOSUPERMODEL]

That is not a large quantity of alcohol. I can drink 4-6 beers in a couple of hours. I drink a lot more than that on a weekend and my test was not that low. It's ultimately your decision but I do not think alcohol is the problem.

[gmantheman]

I agree that alcohol will not cause it to be that low. At your age, the optimal total T should be around 700.

[zaggahamma]

I am wondering if there may be a possibility that I don't need TRT. As I mentioned in another post I am 32 and my total T was 182. But I got to thinking that maybe it's not really that low normally. Over the past few years(approximately 3.5 years) I have been depressed. Part of the way I dealt with that depression was to drink everyday. My drinking consisted of 2-3 beers a night and on weekends 4-6. I read that alcoholism can cause low T. But in the book "Testosterone " the author says 2 beers a night max is okay in that it isn't too bad on the T. Could that amount of alcohol consumption cause my T levels to be that low(of course I found out I had hypothyroidism as well which is being treated)?

I started test and HCG over a week ago(so far 2 shots of 160mg test and 2 shots 500IU HCG). I know the full effect should take about 3-4 weeks, but in the last few days I have felt better than I have in a very long time. My energy is great, libido is great, and I haven't been depressed. Of course I haven't been drinking so as not to hurt T levels and waste my money(mine isn't covered by insurance as I went to a doc in Florida and I paid pretty big bucks for the treatment). Also my thoughts are very clear for the first time in a long time which is what makes me think that maybe my low T was caused by the drinking. If that were the case then I could be hurting my natural T production and maybe never be able to turn back.

So, could that relatively low amount of drinking cause T levels that low? Also, I don't know if this could be indicative of a life of low T but although I was always very athletic when I was younger(was even in the army) I was always skinny and very hard to put on muscle. Also after tons of unprotected sex in my younger years I never got a girl pregnant. Don't know if that matters but it may.

imo,

in order to continue reaping these benefits is to be happy you got on trt and continue it and dont look back

[GotNoBlueMilk]

There is a lot of debate over the alcohol-testosterone issue. Most of it can be summed up in this confusing, conflicting paragraph:

The effects of alcohol upon testosterone are dependent upon the pattern and duration of usage. Acutely alcohol inhibits testosterone production (Gordon et al., 1976; Frias et al., 2002) whilst sustained stable alcohol intake in healthy older men does not influence total testosterone levels (Harman et al., 2001; Sparrow et al., 1980). Chronic alcoholic liver disease may effect androgen metabolism (Lester & Van Thiel, 1977) and elevate SHBG levels (thereby raising total testosterone levels) (Gluud, 1988) in addition to its well-known association with hypogonadism (Baker et al., 1976a).

But alcohol is also know to stiumlate T conversion to estrogen. So that lowers T levels. And alcohol is also known to supress HGH. If you decide to try and not go the HRT route, you obviously have to get healthy and stay healthy.

[bbray]

Thanks guys.

I didn't think that my relatively lower amounts of drinking could cause that low of T. In fact, even at heavier drinking I was thinking it could be pretty hard to lower it to that extent.

And feeling better like I do already, whether it's just in my head or actually the treatment working, I really didn't want to stop the treatment. I just wanted to get your advice just to make sure I wasn't starting something that possibly wasn't necessary.

[steroid.com 1]

There is a lot of debate over the alcohol-testosterone issue. Most of it can be summed up in this confusing, conflicting paragraph:

The effects of alcohol upon testosterone are dependent upon the pattern and duration of usage. Acutely alcohol inhibits testosterone production (Gordon et al., 1976; Frias et al., 2002) whilst sustained stable alcohol intake in healthy older men does not influence total testosterone levels (Harman et al., 2001; Sparrow et al., 1980). Chronic alcoholic liver disease may effect androgen metabolism (Lester & Van Thiel, 1977) and elevate SHBG levels (thereby raising total testosterone levels) (Gluud, 1988) in addition to its well-known association with hypogonadism (Baker et al., 1976a).

But alcohol is also know to stiumlate T conversion to estrogen. So that lowers T levels. And alcohol is also known to supress HGH. If you decide to try and not go the HRT route, you obviously have to get healthy and stay healthy.

Give the man a cigar!

I've read a lot on this subject and there seems to be genuine consensus that booze dose affect E2 more then inhibit production of natural test production (liver pathways that detox alcohol are the same that rid the body of E2 so they compete - and guess who wins?).

If you're on a TRT protocol complete with Test, HCG and an AI the neg affects IMO would even be lower given the exogenous amount of test men can uptake and the help of the AI to reduce the aromatase enzyme..

I like beer and a few cocktails and my levels are at the ceiling.

[zaggahamma]

Thanks guys.

I didn't think that my relatively lower amounts of drinking could cause that low of T. In fact, even at heavier drinking I was thinking it could be pretty hard to lower it to that extent.

And feeling better like I do already, whether it's just in my head or actually the treatment working, I really didn't want to stop the treatment. I just wanted to get your advice just to make sure I wasn't starting something that possibly wasn't necessary.

think about before and then now and that should answer your question

[Bigfoot66]

For me, looking at before and after pictures makes it a no-brainer for me to stick with TRT. Also, since taking Arimidex I wake up with a kickass headache if I have more than a few beers the night before. Don't know why.

[frytlon]

started hrt a few months ago, and will never go back. Dif is night and day. Doc took me off for a while when my bp was high, but got it under control, and now all is great. Only problem is he prescribes very conservatively, 1ml/200mg every two weeks, and I can really feel the dip the last few days. I don't drink, so that has never really been a problem.

[FCVtec]

started hrt a few months ago, and will never go back. Dif is night and day. Doc took me off for a while when my bp was high, but got it under control, and now all is great. Only problem is he prescribes very conservatively, 1ml/200mg every two weeks, and I can really feel the dip the last few days. I don't drink, so that has never really been a problem.

Just inject 100mg every week. Unless your Doc injects it of course.

[frytlon]

no, gf does it for me. thanks, might.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

no, gf does it for me. thanks, might.

Tell him how it is jp

[zaggahamma]

Tell him how it is jp

i call all the shots

[zaggahamma]

For me, looking at before and after pictures makes it a no-brainer for me to stick with TRT. Also, since taking Arimidex I wake up with a kickass headache if I have more than a few beers the night before. Don't know why.

dude i am the same way but the headache will even start the same night...what i do is after my buzz from 3-5 beers or equal in booze (my limit) i have my meal then take ibuprofen to avoid the headache and/or hangover...never go to sleep on it

[warchild]

really no going back off trt unless you wanna feel like how you used too

[HitIt]

john berardi's thought's on T and drugs from "The Big T Part II"

T and Drugs

As a former willing participant in the bodybuilding subculture, I know quite a bit about what makes bodybuilders tick as well as many of the oddities of the lifestyle. One observation I've made over the years is that bodybuilders really like to take pills.

Regardless of whether they're prescription drugs, OTC drugs and supplements, or even good old Fred, Barney and Wilma in sugary vitamin form, bodybuilders will down handfuls at a time as a ritual of worship to the muscle gods. And I'll be the first one to admit that in my day, I had a thing for Betty Rubble. I used to eat mouthfuls of the tiny vixen while making poor Barney watch.

Although Flintstones vitamins probably do not impact T, many recreational, prescription, and OTC drugs do. Lets start with everyone's favorite drug, alcohol. In my opinion, alcohol is the single best legal Testosterone suppressor known to mankind. And you don't need a biochemistry experiment to realize that. Just look at the physique of any alcoholic for the evidence. And not only do chronic alcoholics suffer from low T as a result of sippin' a cold one. Numerous studies have shown that even one night on the town can cause T levels to plummet.

In one particular study, men consumed the equivalent of giving 200 ml of alcohol to a 176-lb man. While intoxicated, T levels were 25% lower on average than before consumption. In addition, the time course of T decrease correlated exactly with blood alcohol so when blood alcohol was the highest, blood T was the lowest.(17) With even lower doses, T levels remained suppressed for 10-16 hours, even after blood alcohol returned to normal.(23,24)

As a side note, one question I'm often asked by men concerns why they get so aroused when drinking. Well gents, in addition to the decrease of inhibitions, the body is fighting to maintain Testosterone homeostasis. As a result, high amounts of LH are released in order to bring T levels back to normal. As mentioned earlier, LH is correlated more with arousal than T, so that's why you get horny, you dogs. The problem, though, is that high LH secretion is ineffective at increasing T during an alcoholic stupor. Alcohol, you see, prevents T production at the Leydig cell level and not at the pituitary level. So you're arousal is up, but T stays down.

You don't drink? Well here is just a list of other drugs that decrease T levels in one way or another3,4,25)

Aspirin
Marijuana
Codeine
Opioids like Morphine, Methadone, and Heroin

You'll notice that a few of these drugs are used for pain. These drugs act on the central nervous system to produce analgesia, a desired effect for guys who pound their muscles day in and day out in the gym. Before you load up on the painkillers though, consider that one group of researchers actually uses T depletion in the blood as an assay for narcotic effectiveness.(3)

What this means is that the better a drug is at producing analgesia, the more it will reduce Testosterone levels . It's believed that these drugs act on the pituitary to block LH secretion and ultimately, T production.(25)

Two other drugs I'd like to mention are Nolvadex and thyroid hormone. Some authors have speculated that both drugs can increase T levels. I'm not convinced. In men who are severely hypothyroid, thyroid medication can increase total T levels.(10) But the doses needed are high. If you're dumb enough to try huge doses of thyroid hormone to try to increase your total T, the catabolic effects of that amount of thyroid would negate any anabolic effects of the increased T.

Both Nolvadex and thyroid drugs also increase SHBG.(10) Remember that the goal in increasing Testosterone levels is to increase bioavailable T - not just total T. If SHBG goes up as total T goes up, then the bioavailable Testosterone may stay the same, or worse yet, decrease. Don't get the wrong idea, though. Optimizing thyroid function through supplements produces a different effect than taking thyroid drugs. Either way, this course of action should help you lose body fat, but I don't think it will increase T levels one bit.

In summary, for maximum T, be cautious of how you use alcohol, marijuana, and painkillers. If you're going to assault your boys with alcohol, perhaps a few shots of diol would be an appropriate chaser. If painkillers have a shelf of their own in your medicine cabinet, perhaps an LH booster like Tribulus would be of benefit to your testis.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

For me, looking at before and after pictures makes it a no-brainer for me to stick with TRT. Also, since taking Arimidex I wake up with a kickass headache if I have more than a few beers the night before. Don't know why.

Interesting. I have never been much of a drinker because I get nasty headaches from just a few beers. It isn't just beer; doesn't seem to matter what I drink. I actually stopped drinking at all about 20 years ago because I simply couldn't stand always getting sick.

The reason I bring this up is because I don't tolerate Arimdex well. Moved to Letro because of it. But I wonder if there is something related between hangover suseptibility and Arimedex tolerance.

[jtuner77]

I think you cannot make this judgement call as you have added 2 things into the mix, dropping of alcohol intake and trt dosages. If you want to find the true answer either drop the trt and then drop the alky completely and see if you still feel clear headed as you do now, which I highly doubt or keep on the trt and drop the alky completely and see which one keeps you clear headed.

[FCVtec]

john berardi's thought's on T and drugs from "The Big T Part II"

T and Drugs

As a former willing participant in the bodybuilding subculture, I know quite a bit about what makes bodybuilders tick as well as many of the oddities of the lifestyle. One observation I've made over the years is that bodybuilders really like to take pills.

Regardless of whether they're prescription drugs, OTC drugs and supplements, or even good old Fred, Barney and Wilma in sugary vitamin form, bodybuilders will down handfuls at a time as a ritual of worship to the muscle gods. And I'll be the first one to admit that in my day, I had a thing for Betty Rubble. I used to eat mouthfuls of the tiny vixen while making poor Barney watch.

Although Flintstones vitamins probably do not impact T, many recreational, prescription, and OTC drugs do. Lets start with everyone's favorite drug, alcohol. In my opinion, alcohol is the single best legal Testosterone suppressor known to mankind. And you don't need a biochemistry experiment to realize that. Just look at the physique of any alcoholic for the evidence. And not only do chronic alcoholics suffer from low T as a result of sippin' a cold one. Numerous studies have shown that even one night on the town can cause T levels to plummet.

In one particular study, men consumed the equivalent of giving 200 ml of alcohol to a 176-lb man. While intoxicated, T levels were 25% lower on average than before consumption. In addition, the time course of T decrease correlated exactly with blood alcohol so when blood alcohol was the highest, blood T was the lowest.(17) With even lower doses, T levels remained suppressed for 10-16 hours, even after blood alcohol returned to normal.(23,24)

As a side note, one question I'm often asked by men concerns why they get so aroused when drinking. Well gents, in addition to the decrease of inhibitions, the body is fighting to maintain Testosterone homeostasis. As a result, high amounts of LH are released in order to bring T levels back to normal. As mentioned earlier, LH is correlated more with arousal than T, so that's why you get horny, you dogs. The problem, though, is that high LH secretion is ineffective at increasing T during an alcoholic stupor. Alcohol, you see, prevents T production at the Leydig cell level and not at the pituitary level. So you're arousal is up, but T stays down.

You don't drink? Well here is just a list of other drugs that decrease T levels in one way or another3,4,25)

Aspirin
Marijuana
Codeine
Opioids like Morphine, Methadone, and Heroin

You'll notice that a few of these drugs are used for pain. These drugs act on the central nervous system to produce analgesia, a desired effect for guys who pound their muscles day in and day out in the gym. Before you load up on the painkillers though, consider that one group of researchers actually uses T depletion in the blood as an assay for narcotic effectiveness.(3)

What this means is that the better a drug is at producing analgesia, the more it will reduce Testosterone levels . It's believed that these drugs act on the pituitary to block LH secretion and ultimately, T production.(25)

Two other drugs I'd like to mention are Nolvadex and thyroid hormone. Some authors have speculated that both drugs can increase T levels. I'm not convinced. In men who are severely hypothyroid, thyroid medication can increase total T levels.(10) But the doses needed are high. If you're dumb enough to try huge doses of thyroid hormone to try to increase your total T, the catabolic effects of that amount of thyroid would negate any anabolic effects of the increased T.

Both Nolvadex and thyroid drugs also increase SHBG.(10) Remember that the goal in increasing Testosterone levels is to increase bioavailable T - not just total T. If SHBG goes up as total T goes up, then the bioavailable Testosterone may stay the same, or worse yet, decrease. Don't get the wrong idea, though. Optimizing thyroid function through supplements produces a different effect than taking thyroid drugs. Either way, this course of action should help you lose body fat, but I don't think it will increase T levels one bit.

In summary, for maximum T, be cautious of how you use alcohol, marijuana, and painkillers. If you're going to assault your boys with alcohol, perhaps a few shots of diol would be an appropriate chaser. If painkillers have a shelf of their own in your medicine cabinet, perhaps an LH booster like Tribulus would be of benefit to your testis.

How much does marijuana use affect T? I assume is much more mild then Painkillers and Alcohol

[zaggahamma]

Interesting. I have never been much of a drinker because I get nasty headaches from just a few beers. It isn't just beer; doesn't seem to matter what I drink. I actually stopped drinking at all about 20 years ago because I simply couldn't stand always getting sick.

The reason I bring this up is because I don't tolerate Arimdex well. Moved to Letro because of it. But I wonder if there is something related between hangover suseptibility and Arimedex tolerance.

definitely an interesting theory bro because 3 or 4 beers shouldnt really give us a headache/hangover and i know it never did before (youthful drinking)(woulda had to have 12plus before a hangover)

[GotNoBlueMilk]

How much does marijuana use affect T? I assume is much more mild then Painkillers and Alcohol

Marijuana causes an increase in conversion of T to Estradiol. So you lose T and gain E2. It is more than insignificant, although I can't give you numbers. I can say from reading that hitting the bong will cause E2 to go up quite a bit.

[zaggahamma]

Marijuana causes an increase in conversion of T to Estradiol. So you lose T and gain E2. It is more than insignificant, although I can't give you numbers. I can say from reading that hitting the bong will cause E2 to go up quite a bit.

what if you guage that with the amount of test and AI you use....all good?

420

H.R.

[HitIt]

How much does marijuana use affect T? I assume is much more mild then Painkillers and Alcohol

Endocrine Effects of Marijuana

[double chicken]

That is not a large quantity of alcohol. I can drink 4-6 beers in a couple of hours. I drink a lot more than that on a weekend and my test was not that low. It's ultimately your decision but I do not think alcohol is the problem.

haha, I had 16 Modelos on Saturday. They were delicious.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Endocrine Effects of Marijuana

Holy crap! Glad I don't smoke that any longer. Thanks for the link.

[HitIt]

what if you guage that with the amount of test and AI you use....all good?

420

H.R.

i smoke some and drink too and this seems to be my philosophy as well lol

Holy crap! Glad I don't smoke that any longer. Thanks for the link.

that study is a real eye opener...not just the effect of mj on t in men, but the endocrine in both men and women

[FCVtec]

A lot of inconclusive data, seems like no studies can be confirmed by others. The only mentioned study on humans seems to have showed no significant difference in T and LH on chronic smokers, occasional ones and baseline. I know for a fact that smoking a J and watching a good movie doesn't take me off track on my training but a night out with friends drinking and I won't even work out the next day feeling dehydrated and weak and my actual muscles look crappy and I can t eat right as well the next day. I am not disagreeing and I ll research lots more into it but I just don't see Marijuana affecting anyone's hormones significantly, I feel it doesn't hold me back physically at all.

[brad1986]

How much does marijuana use affect T? I assume is much more mild then Painkillers and Alcohol

I hope so lol.

[Tbound]

There is no doubt in my mind that alcohol can and will lower T levels. Just look at any long time alcoholic(not calling you one, bro) they have extremely narrow shoulders, thin skin and larger amounts of fat around their waists. I know that most do not workout and do not care to but just using this as an example as a whole. In your case, I'm sure it lowered it a bit but most definitely did not drive it to the 180's by itself alone. Bro, stay with this and do your best to become completely abstinent. By simply seeing some results from your TRT you will be surprised at how much now that you will trade one bad habit for a good one and won't want to slow your results by even drinking a little. All of this is coming from a recovering alcoholic myself, so I know(3 years completely dry). I was in your shoes a few years back(treating my depression with alcohol) and this is by far a much better option. Good luck!!

[bbray]

Thanks guys. I've decided to stick with the treatment. I am feeling really good already. In fact, even prior to my alcohol use I don't remember feeling as good as I do now.

[FCVtec]

bbray??? How much anastrozol are u taking?

[bbray]

bbray??? How much anastrozol are u taking?

Initially the doc had me on none until he saw what my next blood test was. But two days I saw a different doc about it since I wasn't wanting to wait for side effects before getting treated and she gave me 1 mg/day of anastrozol. From what I've read that seems a bit high so I may take it just twice per week.