The Gels

**sirupate** · 09-01-2011, 11:07 AM

Visited the endo yesterday. As an aside, he put me back on Androgel at last visit. My libido had become non-existent under his injection dosing. I was telling him that if I had my way, I'd be on a higher dose of gel. He said he would consider that if my bloodwork indicated. I'll post results when I get them in the mail.

Anyway, I asked about the 1.62% Androgel which is new to the USA. He said he thought that Abbott Labs went with the higher percentage formulation because some guys don't absorb the gel through the tough keratin skin layer very well. By going to a higher percent formulation, guys who are more resistant can get a higher effective dosage of testosterone .

He also remarked that Testim absorbs better than Androgel because of a slightly different formulation, but the disadvantage to Testim is that it still only comes in packets for application unlike Androgel which has a very handy pump version available.

I am just putting this out there because so many here have tried the gel and didn't find it that effective, then moved on to injections. The variability of results from the gel has a good reason. It is because some of us have a keratin skin layer that doesn't permit much penetration of the gel. For others, the gel will work fine.

**Jake14** · 09-01-2011, 01:30 PM

I use Fortesta 2% gel. It comes in a pump and does not smell. You apply it to your thighs. Since it is 2% solution, you use less volume so it drys quickly. I like it much better than Testim.

**sirupate** · 09-01-2011, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jake14

I use Fortesta 2% gel. It comes in a pump and does not smell. You apply it to your thighs. Since it is 2% solution, you use less volume so it drys quickly. I like it much better than Testim.

I assume that you are not in the USA...but 2% sounds pretty good if you are using a gel.

**Jake14** · 09-01-2011, 01:50 PM

No, I am in the USA. The product came out 4 or 5 months ago. I get my prescription filled at CVS.

**zaggahamma** · 09-01-2011, 06:03 PM

when i used testim and androgel i never minded that they were in packets/tubes....thats interesting wut u say about the 2 and how they are absorbed...

did u make sure your test/e2 ratio wasnt the problem when u decided injects were bad on your libido....whats the theory of the delivery system being the culprit?

**kelkel** · 09-01-2011, 08:24 PM

I haven't heard anything about the keratin layer stuff. I gel and just switched to the new 1.62% which seems much nicer. I'm also doing the moisturizer application an hour after the gel to increase absorption by 14-17% hopefully. I'll be getting BW later this month so we'll see how it goes. Right now I'm doing 6 pumps per morning and it's working great.

**sirupate** · 09-02-2011, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by jpkman

when i used testim and androgel i never minded that they were in packets/tubes....thats interesting wut u say about the 2 and how they are absorbed...

did u make sure your test/e2 ratio wasnt the problem when u decided injects were bad on your libido....whats the theory of the delivery system being the culprit?

Test/e2 ratio? Hah...I have the endo who won't do anything about it anyway. He doesn't believe it is appropriate to control e2 in guys and doesn't even measure e2. Further, he had me on a 10 day injection schedule, which was swinging my levels too much. After the appointment where he decided to switch me back to gel, I tried twice a week injections and that worked out much better for me...but it was too late at that point with this doc. He decided that the injections were hurting my libido and he gave me a choice of implants or gel. Need to find a new doc.

**Jake14** · 09-02-2011, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

I haven't heard anything about the keratin layer stuff. I gel and just switched to the new 1.62% which seems much nicer. I'm also doing the moisturizer application an hour after the gel to increase absorption by 14-17% hopefully. I'll be getting BW later this month so we'll see how it goes. Right now I'm doing 6 pumps per morning and it's working great.

What is the moisturizer application?

**sirupate** · 09-02-2011, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by Jake14

What is the moisturizer application?

I'm not Kelkel...obviously, but there was a post in the last 30 days I think, which showed that application of any skin moisturizer about an hour after the gel application got more testosterone into the body...includes sunscreen. I did that at the beach when I went a few weeks ago...applied sunscreen after the gel. Dunno if it did anything or not. Hopefully Kelkel can show his results after bloodwork.

**zaggahamma** · 09-02-2011, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by sirupate

Test/e2 ratio? Hah...I have the endo who won't do anything about it anyway. He doesn't believe it is appropriate to control e2 in guys and doesn't even measure e2. Further, he had me on a 10 day injection schedule, which was swinging my levels too much. After the appointment where he decided to switch me back to gel, I tried twice a week injections and that worked out much better for me...but it was too late at that point with this doc. He decided that the injections were hurting my libido and he gave me a choice of implants or gel. Need to find a new doc.

ditto

**kelkel** · 09-02-2011, 04:19 PM

Hysterical Jake. I should have read that more thoroughly!
The below post comes right from the new 1.62% agel insert:

Effect of sunscreen or moisturizing lotion on absorption of testosterone
In a randomized, 3-way (3 treatment periods without washout period) crossover study in 18 hypogonadal males, the effect of applying a moisturizing lotion or
a sunscreen on the absorption of testosterone was evaluated with the upper arms/shoulders as application sites. For 7 days, moisturizing lotion or sunscreen
(SPF 50) was applied daily to the AndroGel 1.62% application site 1 hour after the application of AndroGel 1.62% 40.5 mg. Application of moisturizing
lotion increased mean testosterone Cavg and Cmax by 14% and 17%, respectively, compared to AndroGel 1.62% administered alone. Application of sunscreen
increased mean testosterone Cavg and Cmax by 8% and 13%, respectively, compared to AndroGel 1.62% applied alon

**VMAAG** · 09-02-2011, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by sirupate

Test/e2 ratio? Hah...I have the endo who won't do anything about it anyway. He doesn't believe it is appropriate to control e2 in guys and doesn't even measure e2. Further, he had me on a 10 day injection schedule, which was swinging my levels too much. After the appointment where he decided to switch me back to gel, I tried twice a week injections and that worked out much better for me...but it was too late at that point with this doc. He decided that the injections were hurting my libido and he gave me a choice of implants or gel. Need to find a new doc.

Yes you need to find a new doc for sure - not only for the many reasons you stated but also because he doesn't test for E2. That one is standard and if he doesn't beleive in it then I suspect he does not have a handle on how the whole hrt protocol works and if learning as he goes...unfortunately at the expense of his patients

**Sharkarm** · 03-01-2012, 07:01 PM

Kelkel,
How did you get your doc to prescribe 6 pumps? I thought the max dose was 4?

**kelkel** · 03-01-2012, 07:17 PM

That's what the manufacturer recommends. Doc can write it how he sees fit. My doc works with me 100% and he will basically do what I ask as long as I can back it up with logic and reasoning. Since that time I've switched to injections. Much easier. Much better. Almost hate to say it as some of the "elders" here (yeah you, Bass, GD, Vette, JPK) will quickly say "told ya"

**HRTstudent** · 03-01-2012, 07:55 PM

The product does say maximum dose is 4 pumps... but the product insert also says the target levels were between 350-750.

If your doc has your target at 350+ then you simply need a new doctor.

Most good docs try to get mid to high normal of around 650+.

**sirupate** · 03-02-2012, 07:29 AM

As a sort of update, I did get a new doctor. Starting out, he agreed to prescribe 4 pumps of the 1.62% Androgel and see what bloodwork indicates next. This new doctor didn't think that the 1.62% absorbs any better than the 1% Androgel...you just get more dose from a given number of pumps.

He "pushes" Testopel.(well, not pushes, but he likes it)...I'm considering trying that for a bit, but I am not sure it is the solution to the problem. Testopel has a time curve similar to test. cyp., just a lot longer as in 3-4 months rather than 1-2 weeks. I still think someone on Testopel will feel great in month 1 and rather lousy by month 4. Not unlike feeling great in week 1 with the injection and not so good by week 2 or 3.