Be honest now

**devildog1967** · 09-05-2011, 05:22 AM

How many people self medicate for trt ? I self medicate and have a much better quality of life. I know its wrong to do but if your docs wont listen to your symptoms what are you ment to do? My bloodwork came out normal(THATS WHY THEY WILL NOT PUT ME ON TRT) but had all the symptoms of low test,

**gym_junki** · 09-05-2011, 05:28 AM

If your Test levels came back normal that means your not low on test. Were u medicating your self before the test??

**zaggahamma** · 09-05-2011, 05:34 AM

doubt your actually looking for a poll but YES there are unfortunately those who dont have rx's and/or under doctors care for treating this condition

nothing is WRONG unless you've hurt someone..

you dont need anyones blessings to do what you need to do bro..

best of luck

**devildog1967** · 09-05-2011, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by gym_junki

If your Test levels came back normal that means your not low on test. Were u medicating your self before the test??

No i was not medicating before the test...And whats normal for one is not necessary normal for another , If all symptoms of low test have gone and even elevated major depression(20y OF DEPRESSION ) have gone I.E no more antidepressants needed .. Then it must prove that my hormones where too low for me to function properly .

**devildog1967** · 09-05-2011, 05:49 AM

Thanks buddy

**gym_junki** · 09-05-2011, 05:57 AM

True, well do what you have to do.. Good luck mate

**lovbyts** · 09-05-2011, 05:59 AM

If you have insurance find another doctor who will listen and do the proper test. If your test (testosterone ) levels came back normal you have other underlying problems that the use of HRT is only making for now.

**devildog1967** · 09-05-2011, 06:06 AM

Dont need insurance as im in the uk, All other possible causes have been ruled out. And im even under a pyc and hes astounded with the change in me ..hence no more meds needed..They thought i was suffering with bi-polar type 2, and treating me for it (NOW THEY SAY I DONT) ... Now my pyc is reading up and hormone imbalance to possibly script me for test as he thinks some people need more than the normal that the medics use as a rough guide .. Yes rough guide as all labs are different to what is normal. ( Which the docs will not like)

**marcus300** · 09-05-2011, 06:22 AM

If you had a full blood screening panel done and everything came back as normal your don't need TRT and you wasn't suffering with low T. You was experiencing being "normal" after a cycle, sometimes going back to normal T hormone levels is hard to cope with and many go back on because the feeling of being normal feels like depression etc. What do you expect running high levels of hormones and going back to normal.

**devildog1967** · 09-05-2011, 07:11 AM

If you had a full blood screening panel done and everything came back as normal your don't need TRT and you wasn't suffering with low T . You was experiencing being "normal" after a cycle , sometimes going back to normal T hormone levels is hard to cope with and many go back on because the feeling of being normal feels like depression etc. What do you expect running high levels of hormones and going back to normal.

Never ran cycle ..so thats not open to question ( and my original post never said i used to be on one )

**marcus300** · 09-05-2011, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by devildog1967

If you had a full blood screening panel done and everything came back as normal your don't need TRT and you wasn't suffering with low T . You was experiencing being "normal" after a cycle , sometimes going back to normal T hormone levels is hard to cope with and many go back on because the feeling of being normal feels like depression etc. What do you expect running high levels of hormones and going back to normal.

Never ran cycle ..so thats not open to question ( and my original post never said i used to be on one )

I thought you have been cycling, but must of been someone else. If you have never cycled it can't be what I stated.

**devildog1967** · 09-05-2011, 07:46 AM

Thanks bud

**marcus300** · 09-05-2011, 08:07 AM

Its very hard to get on HRT in the UK and if your naturally on the lower end of the range's they will not prescribe you any medication. What you need to do is come off your TRT and your natural test will be shutdown, go and get more bloodwork done and your doctor will send you to see a endo who will prescribe you HRT. When he does this ask him to put you on Nebido - its the kind of HRT

**devildog1967** · 09-05-2011, 08:20 AM

The problem is now my pyc knows im doing it(Only been doing it for 10 weeks ) , he has advised me not to come off or we would be back to square one with all the meds i was on ..( Thing with meds sides are bad )He said keep on untill we have researched a bit more so we can prove a point to uk doctors

ALSO THE PROBLEM IS THAT MY DOCS KNOW I BODY-BUILD AND HAVE DONE FOR 20Y NATURALLY ..BUT THEY JUST SEE RED WHEN STEROIDS ARE INVOLVED .

**JD250** · 09-05-2011, 10:36 AM

Introduce them to Dr. Crislers work, protocols and papers........if that doesn't convince them and point them in the right direction nothing will. Good luck to you bro, my levels were technically still in the normal range, low but still in normal range, that's why I went with a clinic cuz the docs didn't have a clue.

**pugster** · 09-05-2011, 12:33 PM

i am also in the UK and in a similar situation , my last blood test came back 10.1 n/mol (range 9-30) , when i asked my GP refered me to an endo who basically was not interested unless i was under 9 n/mol , i also have been 'under' the mental health label for the last 12yrs and have taken almost every form of psychiatric medication available here (anti depressants, mood stabilizers etc) , all with no effect on me , this also includes me letting the pdoc /gp know all my other symtoms (hot sweats /aching muscle and joint/back problems /brain fog /zero libido).
when you look at them the similarities for diagnostic criteria between low testosterone and depression disorders they are very close , i have managed to get a referal to a urologist who specialises in low testosterone therapy (just waiting for a date) , if we cant agree a trial (im just asking for a trial of trt to see if it helps me) , then i will also go the self admin route , as already stated by the other UK members, TRT is hard to find here tho if you search there are a few private clinics around .

**devildog1967** · 09-05-2011, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by pugster

i am also in the UK and in a similar situation , my last blood test came back 10.1 n/mol (range 9-30) , when i asked my GP refered me to an endo who basically was not interested unless i was under 9 n/mol , i also have been 'under' the mental health label for the last 12yrs and have taken almost every form of psychiatric medication available here (anti depressants, mood stabilizers etc) , all with no effect on me , this also includes me letting the pdoc /gp know all my other symtoms (hot sweats /aching muscle and joint/back problems /brain fog /zero libido).
when you look at them the similarities for diagnostic criteria between low testosterone and depression disorders they are very close , i have managed to get a referal to a urologist who specialises in low testosterone therapy (just waiting for a date) , if we cant agree a trial (im just asking for a trial of trt to see if it helps me) , then i will also go the self admin route , as already stated by the other UK members, TRT is hard to find here tho if you search there are a few private clinics around .

Thats why i self medicated bro, To prove a point to them that hormones are the problem for so called BI-POLAR . The thing is all the doctors go on is test readings and NOT the way we feel and symptoms.. As i say im off my mood stabilizers and my horrible antidepressants and done all by myself... All iv asked from my docs and pyc is ! can you please keep a eye on my bloods as i dont mind paying for the testosterone , I just want to be safe . Doc will not comply with me..So im leaving it upto the pyc to prove to the docs that im better off on trt to keep me sane..lol... Plus the side affect and dangers from the tablets are worst than testosterone sides

**devildog1967** · 09-05-2011, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by pugster

i am also in the UK and in a similar situation , my last blood test came back 10.1 n/mol (range 9-30) , when i asked my GP refered me to an endo who basically was not interested unless i was under 9 n/mol , i also have been 'under' the mental health label for the last 12yrs and have taken almost every form of psychiatric medication available here (anti depressants, mood stabilizers etc) , all with no effect on me , this also includes me letting the pdoc /gp know all my other symtoms (hot sweats /aching muscle and joint/back problems /brain fog /zero libido).
when you look at them the similarities for diagnostic criteria between low testosterone and depression disorders they are very close , i have managed to get a referal to a urologist who specialises in low testosterone therapy (just waiting for a date) , if we cant agree a trial (im just asking for a trial of trt to see if it helps me) , then i will also go the self admin route , as already stated by the other UK members, TRT is hard to find here tho if you search there are a few private clinics around .

Thats why i self medicated bro, To prove a point to them that hormones are the problem for so called BI-POLAR . The thing is all the doctors go on is test readings and NOT the way we feel and symptoms.. As i say im off my mood stabilizers and my horrible antidepressants and done all by myself... All iv asked from my docs and pyc is ! can you please keep a eye on my bloods as i dont mind paying for the testosterone , I just want to be safe . Doc will not comply with me..So im leaving it upto the pyc to prove to the docs that im better off on trt to keep me sane..lol... Plus the side affect and dangers from the tablets are worst than testosterone sides

**lovbyts** · 09-05-2011, 09:25 PM

Defiantly phyc meds are over prescribed most everywhere and I'm sure over time they screw you up even more. Well it sounds like you are on to something and if it works for you then I would probably stick with it also. It still may not be low test but it's something related. We still dont know everything about how the body works, that's for sure and using low dose test is defiantly better than most of the prescription drugs out there.

**devildog1967** · 09-06-2011, 12:51 AM

yes bro...Pyc said to me that some people might have to have high natural test than others, Which is a good point as we are not all the same . So to me i think doctors have not looked into the benefits of higher levels than the normal guide lines . I think it worth the investigation instead of pumping people full of different drugs to help a multitude of symptoms when one might fix most of them if not all. ( AT LEAST I DON'T RATTLE ANY MORE WHEN I WALK DOWN THE STREET )

**marcus300** · 09-06-2011, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by devildog1967

The problem is now my pyc knows im doing it(Only been doing it for 10 weeks ) , he has advised me not to come off or we would be back to square one with all the meds i was on ..( Thing with meds sides are bad )He said keep on untill we have researched a bit more so we can prove a point to uk doctors

ALSO THE PROBLEM IS THAT MY DOCS KNOW I BODY-BUILD AND HAVE DONE FOR 20Y NATURALLY ..BUT THEY JUST SEE RED WHEN STEROIDS ARE INVOLVED .

They have guidelines to follow so if your not out of range then its hard for them to prescribe you medication for something what you dont need, or the guidelines say you dont need. I guess you went about it all wrong and you should of dropped your natural testosterone levels to the floor before having bloodwork done then you would of got prescribe TRT.

**pugster** · 09-06-2011, 02:29 AM

the problem is that in the uK as of yet there are no 'real' guidelines for GP's to follow, all i could find was >
Bristish society for sexual medicine - the role of androgens 2011
investigation and treatment of male hypogonadism -ISA euro guidelines.

both these can be found online to print of and show your GP , tho as stated theres no true guidelines such as NICE at the moment.
i tracked down the specialists by reading the above papers and looking who wrote them, there are 2 routes to follow >
1/ try and track down a local NHS specialist to your area (not many in UK at the moment) , you have the right now to ask to be refered to what ever specialist /consultant you want under UK law.

2/ go private, get a diagnoses and either pay private or hope that your GP will support your diagnosis and prescibe under the NHS , you might get lucky and have a supportive GP tho most are very reluctant to prescibe with no guidelines.

the problem lies in that there is a very grey area in the above guidelines , under 9n/mol you are diagnosed with hypogonadism , the grey area comes between 9-12 n/mol where symtoms 'can' occur tho most consultants /GP's etc do not agree or recognises this or simply dont have the training for it.

**marcus300** · 09-06-2011, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by pugster

the problem is that in the uK as of yet there are no 'real' guidelines for GP's to follow, all i could find was >
Bristish society for sexual medicine - the role of androgens 2011
investigation and treatment of male hypogonadism -ISA euro guidelines.

both these can be found online to print of and show your GP , tho as stated theres no true guidelines such as NICE at the moment.
i tracked down the specialists by reading the above papers and looking who wrote them, there are 2 routes to follow >
1/ try and track down a local NHS specialist to your area (not many in UK at the moment) , you have the right now to ask to be refered to what ever specialist /consultant you want under UK law.

2/ go private, get a diagnoses and either pay private or hope that your GP will support your diagnosis and prescibe under the NHS , you might get lucky and have a supportive GP tho most are very reluctant to prescibe with no guidelines.

the problem lies in that there is a very grey area in the above guidelines , under 9n/mol you are diagnosed with hypogonadism , the grey area comes between 9-12 n/mol where symtoms 'can' occur tho most consultants /GP's etc do not agree or recognises this or simply dont have the training for it.

There are guidelines what UK Doctors follow for Testosterone deficiency, they come under The British Society For Sexual Medicine and several other organisations. They are published in the journals Maturitas and Human Fertility, these guidelines are published to help diagnosis and treat hormones issues.

**devildog1967** · 09-06-2011, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

They have guidelines to follow so if your not out of range then its hard for them to prescribe you medication for something what you dont need, or the guidelines say you dont need. I guess you went about it all wrong and you should of dropped your natural testosterone levels to the floor before having bloodwork done then you would of got prescribe TRT.

To drop my test levels is NOT the answer.. Why would one want to cheat and give false readings ? Im proving a point that even if your test levels are normal and have symptoms as i have described, that it can be possible that some people need extra test in there body's than the next person..Its like some bodybuilders get bigger on lets say on 500mg where the next person might need 1000mg for the same sort of results . If we where all the same then know one would need to use steroids to increase size E.C.T.. Iv seen natural body builders that are in better condition / stronger / and bigger that alot of men who stack large amounts of AS ( ITS CALLED INDIVIDUAL GENETICS ) So in that case guidelines go out the window .

**marcus300** · 09-06-2011, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by devildog1967

To drop my test levels is NOT the answer.. Why would one want to cheat and give false readings ? Im proving a point that even if your test levels are normal and have symptoms as i have described, that it can be possible that some people need extra test in there body's than the next person..Its like some bodybuilders get bigger on lets say on 500mg where the next person might need 1000mg for the same sort of results . If we where all the same then know one would need to use steroids to increase size E.C.T.. Iv seen natural body builders that are in better condition / stronger / and bigger that alot of men who stack large amounts of AS ( ITS CALLED INDIVIDUAL GENETICS ) So in that case guidelines go out the window .

Like ive stated they have guidelines to follow and one individual isn't going to prove anything in their eyes. I was commenting on how you could get HRT prescribed in the UK instead of self prescribing

**devildog1967** · 09-06-2011, 03:06 AM

My reading is 15n/mol But have every symptoms of not normal levels for me( HENCE ALL MY SYMPTOMS HAVE ALL BUT GONE ) . So it is a one thing is ok for one where it might not be for the other. It should be work on health / mental health of the person .. Not just on what a piece of paper says . Just my opinion.

**marcus300** · 09-06-2011, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by devildog1967

My reading is 15n/mol But have every symptoms of not normal levels for me( HENCE ALL MY SYMPTOMS HAVE ALL BUT GONE ) . So it is a one thing is ok for one where it might not be for the other. It should be work on health / mental health of the person .. Not just on what a piece of paper says . Just my opinion.

I hear you frustration but one individual isn't going to change how the UK endo's go about diagnosis and treatment of such symptoms. At least you feel better with your self prescribed T and if you monitor your bloods I cant see any problems. Best of luck

**pugster** · 09-06-2011, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

There are guidelines what UK Doctors follow for Testosterone deficiency, they come under The British Society For Sexual Medicine and several other organisations. They are published in the journals Maturitas and Human Fertility, these guidelines are published to help diagnosis and treat hormones issues.

sorry marcus in my case this is not true, i have taken these 'guidelines' to my GP and quoted them over the phone to an endo who told me my range was normal (dispite me telling him my other symtoms) , both treated them with indiference and were not interested in anything i had to say, the bssm and issam guidelines can be followed or not depending on the specialist , they are not gospel , my GP admitted i had to find a consultant who was sympathetic regarding male andropause before i would get much help, i'll shut up now as i feel as tho im hijacking the thread

.

**marcus300** · 09-06-2011, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by pugster

sorry marcus in my case this is not true, i have taken these 'guidelines' to my GP and quoted them over the phone to an endo who told me my range was normal (dispite me telling him my other symtoms) , both treated them with indiference and were not interested in anything i had to say, the bssm and issam guidelines can be followed or not depending on the specialist , they are not gospel , my GP admitted i had to find a consultant who was sympathetic regarding male andropause before i would get much help, i'll shut up now as i feel as tho im hijacking the thread

.

I don't follow what your trying to say isn't true" in your case! You stated there are no guidelines and I explain there is, now your stating not in your case, it doesn't make sense. There are guidelines what Endo's follow and if you have had bloodwork done and your within these ranges then they are not going to treat you. If your feel your Endo isnt fully understanding then seek a second opinion or pay to find the specialist who does understand and who will treat your symptoms with TRT. I found it very hard to get my Doctor to understand what I needed but my Endo is very good and fully understands. Your not going to change your endo's mind or decision your better seeking one who does understands

**pugster** · 09-06-2011, 05:37 AM

i should have been clearer , yes i know that there are guidelines, i quoted them in my original post , what im saying is that altho i said to both my GP and the endo i had read them (and presented my GP with copies) , they have both chosen to ignore them in my case (and i have multiple bloodworks showing my test lvls under 11 n/mol and symptoms) , as you have already stated i have had to get refered elesewhere , what i am saying is that not every endo/urologist follows these guidelines to the letter and you just have to find a 'good' one.

**marcus300** · 09-06-2011, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by pugster

i should have been clearer , yes i know that there are guidelines, i quoted them in my original post , what im saying is that altho i said to both my GP and the endo i had read them (and presented my GP with copies) , they have both chosen to ignore them in my case (and i have multiple bloodworks showing my test lvls under 11 n/mol and symptoms) , as you have already stated i have had to get refered elesewhere , what i am saying is that not every endo/urologist follows these guidelines to the letter and you just have to find a 'good' one.

After all they are only a guide.

Yes defo seek a better Endo, best of luck

**devildog1967** · 09-06-2011, 05:48 AM

What im saying is now that my pyc is involved he see the difference in me and is now looking to prove to endos/docs that there is a common link with test levels sometimes need to be pushed higher in some cases . As if it works in helping pyc conditions which mostly involve the same symptoms as low test would give . At the end of the day why do car company's build cars that can do say 160mph when the law says you can only drive at a certain speed on the roads ? So if a human body is built with with a max amount of test then who is to say what normal is ? Why not run on a near max or normal high level on there guidelines and not a normal bottom range level, to keep the body and mind more youthfully and function better .