Another reason why high E2 is not good...like we need another.

[steroid.com 1]

We all here pretty much understand the process of Aromatization and how the Aromatase Enzyme can attach itself to the receptors of Testosterone chemically converting it into Estradiol.

But what we don't talk a lot about here is how E2 binds to androgen receptors that essentially renders them useless. What we need to remember is that Estradiol is a very powerful receptor antagonist and that can be cause for real concern if one presents with high E2 levels...especially for a prolonged period of time.

We all increase testosterone to optimal levels here to get the wonderful benefits it should provide for a man. This happens when testosterone binds to the androgen receptors and activates them...that's when all the magic happens to us.

But when E2 binds with that same androgen receptor it blocks out testosterone from doing its thing and the result...nothing happens!

So, if you have, or suspect you have, high E2 levels all the testosterone in the world won't do you a hill of beans good. This is one big reason why we hear guys here say they are on a testosterone only protocol and not seeing any results. You can almost bet they have high E2 levels that are binding to androgen receptors providing little to no affect.

What's more, with the high E2 levels - it can and will - result in the downregulation of androgen receptors. The body will respond to increased levels of E2 by not producing more androgen receptors as they reproduce during normal cell reproduction cycles.

This is why some guys starting our on a TRT protocol have a longer response time to testosterone therapy . They have been in a androgen downregulation state thus a lower then normal number of androgen receptors.

With balanced hormonal panels and control over E2...in time the receptors will regenerate and a man will get back to feeling well again.

Just one more reason why E2 management is so critical to our TRT success.

Peace my friends!

gd

[bigboy67]

bang, you hit the nail on the head. exactly what is happening for me right now, been on Test only (b/c my doc is slow on the go with this process) and finally got my E2 results (sensitive assay) at 112!

All the Test in the world isnt going to help me until I get my E2 down. I am sure that once it is in check I will feel like a million bucks.

[steroid.com 1]

bang, you hit the nail on the head. exactly what is happening for me right now, been on Test only (b/c my doc is slow on the go with this process) and finally got my E2 results (sensitive assay) at 112!

All the Test in the world isnt going to help me until I get my E2 down. I am sure that once it is in check I will feel like a million bucks.

Yep, it's exactly why Docs are dangerous when it comes to TRT protocols. This is where they fail because they don't understand. It's our job to educate them and if not cooperative...move on to one that will. You're being hurt...

[bass]

good stuff as usual GD! it is similar to how it binds to the sex hormone (globulin), but to break it apart you have to take anavar , thats why clinics prescribe anavar sometimes! i just wish Anastrozole had the same effects on the body as anavar!

[Bigfoot66]

Probably explains why I had such a dramatic change after getting my E2 straight. Mass, fat loss, and mood.

[jamotech]

Good read, cant wait to get on some arimedex, literally im going crazy with the anticipation of how ill feel after i get my E2 down. I keep reading stuff like this, and makes me glad I didnt go back to doing it the way I used to, meaning not having bloodwork and seeing a hrt doctor.

[bigboy67]

my doc wont give me an AI, even with a 112 E2 test! he wants me to back down my Test to 150mg ew and see where my E2 lands.

[steroid.com 1]

my doc wont give me an AI, even with a 112 E2 test! he wants me to back down my Test to 150mg ew and see where my E2 lands.

Read the part about downregulation of androgen receptors with high E2 levels. This is really important to understand; as time goes by your body is producing less and less androgen receptors. The result of this means you have less receptors for your testosterone to attach to and make the magic. Moving your Test dosage to 150 mg most likely will not change your high E2 serum level. All while he's fooling around with your dosage, and you continue with high E2 levels, the downregulation will continue putting you further and further in a bad place.

Insist on an AI and tell him if he's hurting you because he's not prescribing a known and affective drug in TRT protocols you will do something about it. He'll get it. The last thing he wants is to be sued for malpractice...which I think he's doing anyway.

Read the PM I sent you bigboy.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

From lef.org

Estrogen Balance is Critical to Aging Men
A study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) measured blood estradiol in 501 men with chronic heart failure. Compared to men in the balanced estrogen quintile, men in the highest quintile (serum estradiol levels of 37.40 pg/mL or greater) were significantly (133%) more likely to die. Those in the lowest estradiol quintile (serum estradiol levels under 12.90 pg/mL) had a 317% increased death rate compared to the balanced group. The men in the balanced quintile—with the fewest deaths—had serum estradiol levels between 21.80 and 30.11 pg/mL (Ewa et al 2009). This is the ideal range that Life Extension has long recommended male members strive for.

Ok, this is on men who already have chronic heart failure, but it goes to show how the best level is 21-30 for this group. I have to assume that this range is good for other groups too if it helps the chronic heart failure group.

[steroid.com 1]

To add more fuel to the fire; high E2 leads to Hypothyroidism.

[Logonzo]

Does anyone have a lead to the best published article(reputable) to show and convince my endo to prescribe an AI. My e2 is at 91, but he rinks that is normal. Any help would be appreciated. Thx

[bigboy67]

Does anyone have a lead to the best published article(reputable) to show and convince my endo to prescribe an AI. My e2 is at 91, but he rinks that is normal. Any help would be appreciated. Thx

Dude, at a 91, is your endo thinks its normal, I would get a different doctor. Thats exactly what I had to do. You can try and "teach" this guy, or find someone who knows the the hell they are doing so they dont screw you up royally.

just my 2 cents

I will look through my articles though and see what I have

[Logonzo]

Yea unfortunately, he does not seem to be very knowledgeable in this are. One good aspect though is he seems t be treating me based on the way I'm feeling. I have searched online for other docs in my area that accept my insurance and the are far and few between. I would be thankful if you could lead me to some good articles about the e2! I think he would listen to that.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

If your endo is uncooperative, just buy Liquidex online. This is anastrazol and you can get it legally, online. AI's are one of the few things you can get w/o a prescription if you agree that it is for research purposes.

I pay out of pocket, so I get it online instead of with a presciption because it's less expensive that way.

[bigboy67]

ok, so I know people say it is legal to buy online, but isnt it just legal to buy because you are using it to study rats? I only ask because I wonder that even if it is legal to buy, what if some of it were to find its way into your body? Is taking it illegal? I may be asked if I have taken illegal drugs for employment purposes, and I have to be able to truthfully answer yes

[GotNoBlueMilk]

It is legal for purchasing and administering only to your lab rats, correct. However, unlike Testosterone , having and taking w/o a prescription is a slap on the wrist. It's like antibiotics. They can catch you and if they want can give you a small fine, but it isn't jail or a steep fine like testosterone. The feds are well aware of what is going on and turn their back because it just isn't worth their time. If a US website site sold testosterone everyone would be going to jail: seller and buyers!

If you are being subjected to a lie detector for employment, then don't get research chemicals. Stick with prescriptions. If it is a checkbox on the an application, who cares. An AI won't even be tested for for employment screening. They didn't catch my testosterone, AI, HCG , or GHRP/GRF. They were looking only for recreational drugs. If you are a cop in NJ or NY, they may check for testosterone.

[Logonzo]

If your endo is uncooperative, just buy Liquidex online. This is anastrazol and you can get it legally, online. AI's are one of the few things you can get w/o a prescription if you agree that it is for research purposes.

I pay out of pocket, so I get it online instead of with a presciption because it's less expensive that way.

That sounds appealing, however I am currently active duty military. I have a lot to risk by doing anything remotely illegal. I can get demoted, and depending how serious it is even discharged. I guess I will just try to talk with the endo in a week or so at my next appointment. Im really concerned about the high e2 and heart disease as my grandfather had four heart attacks before dying finally.

[go2failure]

To add more fuel to the fire; high E2 leads to Hypothyroidism.

Interesting... So, a guy like myself who hasnt been on a AI and will very likely be on a AI for the first times in 2 years of TRT will perhaps get to experience the benefits of a controlled E2 level, could this get me that TRT high you talked about in your other thread? I'm hypothyroid, I wonder whether lower the E2 will provide a double kick for me... perhaps a mini sustainable high compared to the shit existence I'm living in now... Or should I ask you... How do you feel with your treatment?

[Simon1972]

so is 96 estrogen considered high? with liquidex being reccomended over how long and what dosage do you reckon would fix it up?

[go2failure]

so is 96 estrogen considered high? with liquidex being reccomended over how long and what dosage do you reckon would fix it up?

Yes. Optimal being 21-30 ish.


Cant wait to get my E2 results back, probably something ridiculous like 150-200

[zaggahamma]

No number is optimum unless the patient well being is present along with it

[go2failure]

No number is optimum unless the patient well being is present along with it

Health and feeling good are 2 diff things--personally im shooting for the range found in this article. If anything, i have something to feed the derps i deal with through insurance referral who know nothing of proper TRT therapy

[bass]

Health and feeling good are 2 diff things--personally im shooting for the range found in this article. If anything, i have something to feed the derps i deal with through insurance referral who know nothing of proper TRT therapy

JPK meant as longs as it is within range.

[go2failure]

JPK meant as longs as it is within range.

Yeah, I know, I was just letting him know where I was coming from--2 years of dealing with idiots who refuse to even run a test on anything other than testosterone and a thyroid panel, cbc, cmp, basic bloodwork. It gets aggravating when I have to find medical research and teach them how to do their damn job. Finally got my PCM to understand my reasons for getting so many referrals, but at least he is man enough to admit he doesnt have a clue about TRT--he wouldnt know what to do even if it did come back abnormal. Feeling good to me will probably come last after I finally get these guys to thinking about a proper range. Hell, just getting them to ****ing run the lab test... man o man... 2 years of this shit!

[bass]

i hear you bro, they, being in charge of your health attitude is what really sucks, i bet if drugs were not controlled they'll have a different attitude/approach!

[zaggahamma]

Yeh combination of target numbers but numbers not being the ONLY player

[go2failure]

Yeh combination of target numbers but numbers not being the ONLY player

Well the Dr. today said some things I liked and things I didnt like.

1) He believes based off of my original LH/FSH levels I was secondary and shouldnt have been immediately put on TRT without trying LH/FSH stimulation via clomid or HCG .
2) He wants to make sure my estrogen levels are optimal--He also said he could care less if my TT is 1300 or 400 as long as I feel great and my symptoms are cured (although he doesnt believe estrogen should be ignored or left out of control). He says TT is worthless to him free T, shbg, estrogen are most important.
3) He believes in the use of Arimidex and micronized Chrysin and other supplements for AI control. I informed him I was interested in arimidex LOL.
4) He wants to try to wean me off of T. Following a E controlled reduction in the amount of T I'm taking in, then adding HCG to raise LH, the removing T while on HCG, then possibly just HCG + AI or clomid + AI for a while, then possibly only AI. Gotta say I also began to think that possibly my problem was secondary with E issues. Perhaps this may be a path I can take.... who knows, but at least he has the big pictures about how getting everything working is supposed to go.
5) He biggest determiner in my hormonal treatment, is how I feel though--he wants me to feel good.
6) He is taking salivary tests first for just about everything, then blood tests. He is checking pregnenolone, dhea, progesterone, cortisol, all diff types of estrogens, androgens, SHBG, free T, TT, everything. A complete nutritional profile will come later with some allergy testing (foods, etc). Gotta say its a relief to hear someone actually wanting to pull out their sherlock cloak.
7) got an EKG, Prostate exam (OWWW), Carotid Artery Thickness Test, Body Comp all done same appt too!
8) for $450 out of pocket, I'm happy I went

[rasc170]

good stuff. Love your posts. What do you think is considered high estrodial levels though? Wouldn't being on the high end of the reference range still be cause for concern?