Did not like my results...

[Sicko]

So I got my annual BW back and am kinda bummed out at the results... I have been on trt for around six months of 200mg EW of tes cyp.
I have felt a little better but not really jumpin thru hoops kind of better. I am still very tired all the time and dont have much motivation at all still. sex life is not really improved too much either.

And then when the doc called me to go over results she was a little shocked at the fact that my levels were only at 705 with free at 15..They upped my weekly dose to 300mg PW...
Seems like from what most everyone else says my total tes should be around 1000 if taking 200mg PW.

Anyone have any input as to why numbers are so low still.

[Fred40]

Wow! your body must really metabolize the Test.

I'm on 100mg of test cyp a week and my total was 963 (range 240-950) and free was 28.9 (range 9-30)....4 days after injection.

How and where are you injecting?

[sirupate]

You may need an AI if your free test. is that low, given the amount of test. cyp. you are injecting.

[spoonta66]

I've got the same problem as you, I dont get good results until I hit 250mg+ a week.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

You need more info posted here. What is your E2 (is all your T being converted to E2?), what is your SHBG (super high and holding the free T?).

Throwing more T at the situation is not the solution since you are already at a high end dose. It really is best to look at the whole picture and understand what is going on. Then you can fix the problem and not just overcompensate for a problem.

[kelkel]

Perfectly answered GNBM ^^^^

[NOSUPERMODEL]

Holy crap 300mg a week is very high. I can't believe you were that low on 200mgs every week? How far out were you from your shot when you got your blood work done.

[zaggahamma]

You need more info posted here. What is your E2 (is all your T being converted to E2?), what is your SHBG (super high and holding the free T?).

Throwing more T at the situation is not the solution since you are already at a high end dose. It really is best to look at the whole picture and understand what is going on. Then you can fix the problem and not just overcompensate for a problem.

agree with looking at other factors....what would you advise/suggest if his shbg was high

[Vettester]

Agree ^^ You can deviate your unbound free "T" with lowering your SHBG. First, find out your SHBG and E2 score. You're just over 2% right now on the free testosterone , and if your SHBG is high you can bring it down with some Stinging Nettle Root. There's also some anabolic products that will reduce it, but stick to the natural side for now, which is very effective. BTW 2% to 3% is usually pretty normal, so if you can aim to get to 2.75%, you should be in a good range (IMO).

GNBM is correct, adding more exogenous test really isn't the solution in thie case, especially if you already have elevated E2 and SHGB levels.

[JohnnyVegas]

I was going to say the same thing as many of the posts above. Interested to know what you E2 is.

My doc was surprised my levels came back in the 600s (forget what Free T was) in my last blood work. She seemed to be open to boosting my dose, but I think I am doing pretty well at 200mg/week. I am feeling good and libido is solid. Despite my scores coming back low, my difference in symptoms suggest we don't have the same issue?

[zaggahamma]

Vette

thanks...always forget that one

so stinging nettle root is proven in lowering shbg signinficantly or at least to the point of freeing up a good portion of T?

and would there be any harm or not make sense to take the nettle root if shbg wasnt high or you didnt know your shbg level? just as a precaution/supplement?

[Sicko]

Wow! your body must really metabolize the Test.

I'm on 100mg of test cyp a week and my total was 963 (range 240-950) and free was 28.9 (range 9-30)....4 days after injection.

How and where are you injecting?

Wow that is the kind of results that sells trt...congrats on your success...

You may need an AI if your free test. is that low, given the amount of test. cyp. you are injecting.

I am on anastrozole 1`mg EOD.

I've got the same problem as you, I dont get good results until I hit 250mg+ a week.

That is what the doc said, some people react differently to exogenous test.

You need more info posted here. What is your E2 (is all your T being converted to E2?), what is your SHBG (super high and holding the free T?).


Throwing more T at the situation is not the solution since you are already at a high end dose. It really is best to look at the whole picture and understand what is going on. Then you can fix the problem and not just overcompensate for a problem.

My E2 is 12.2 down from 36.3 range 7.6-42.6
I dont know where to look for shbg level..I dont see that "name" on the report. how would it be named on the report?

Holy crap 300mg a week is very high. I can't believe you were that low on 200mgs every week? How far out were you from your shot when you got your blood work done.

only a few days out.. I split my dose into Monday morn/Thursday night..

Agree ^^ You can deviate your unbound free "T" with lowering your SHBG. First, find out your SHBG and E2 score. You're just over 2% right now on the free testosterone , and if your SHBG is high you can bring it down with some Stinging Nettle Root. There's also some anabolic products that will reduce it, but stick to the natural side for now, which is very effective. BTW 2% to 3% is usually pretty normal, so if you can aim to get to 2.75%, you should be in a good range (IMO).

GNBM is correct, adding more exogenous test really isn't the solution in thie case, especially if you already have elevated E2 and SHGB levels.

I will try the stinging nettle and see if that helps, but it doesnt seem like my E2 is a factor since it is low now?
I am starting to wonder about the potency of the tes. I googled the Doctor and the RX's that the tes comes from and they both have good reps/websites...of course that really doesnt mean crap anymore..anyone can spend the money for a fancy website...
I am frustrated and sick of feeling like it is a struggle to get out of bed everyday...
I had such high hopes for this program and so far am not impressed...Maybe it just takes longer to find the sweet spot???

[OutLaw8.5]

POssibly too low E2 and too much ai
I think the standard by here is 1mg per 100test..

[Vettester]

Vette

thanks...always forget that one

so stinging nettle root is proven in lowering shbg signinficantly or at least to the point of freeing up a good portion of T?

and would there be any harm or not make sense to take the nettle root if shbg wasnt high or you didnt know your shbg level? just as a precaution/supplement?

Yes, Nettle Root can and will lower SHBG, which in turn will free up bound testosterone . I don't have a scientific fact sheet supporting this statement, just a personal testimonial, plus the testimonies of members and colleagues over the years. I know I've seen some scientific documentation online at one point or another, but nothing in hand.

Lots of people take it as a daily supplement for joint/arthritis related issues, and even BPH, not even knowing that it has any effect on their SHBG and testosterone values. As far as I can determine, it's a safe, effective supplement, that will be fine if used moderately and responsibly (kind of like anything out there). There are other factors like Albumin involved with the binding of bio testosterone, and I don't think anyone has bottomed out their SHBG using it. However, if given the chance, definitely run labs before and after to see exactly what it can do. A year ago, my SHBG was kind of low before taking SNR with a score of 19, and went down to 11.7 after 2 months. However, even with such a low SHBG score, my free "T" was still 3.28%.

[Vettester]

Sicko, on the E2, I'll give you my .02, and that will be just that, my .02. Others will have their thoughts, which is why this is a great forum.

My thoughts are that you are overdoing it on your AI. I suspect this is a HUGE factor to why you're tired/lethargic, which in turn is contributing to your decline in motivation, and definitely contributing to your libido issues. 12.2 on your E2, IMO, is probably your biggest culprit. I know for clinical purposes, that score falls into range, but for practical purposes it is not good. There's going to be lots of debate between many "Knowledgeable" members as to what the optimal number is, we can discuss that if you like. However, I personally have no doubt that these sides (and others like joint pain) is almost a for sure situation when you get under 20. If it were me, I'd knock it back to 0.5 x 2/wk for 1 month, then run labs. 25 or 30 on your E2 will make a HUGE difference in your program, that's my .02

Also, everyone is completely different. 200mg/wk shouldn't have expectations to hit 1,000 on the serum score. There's guys hitting 800 on 100mg/wk. IMO, your score is SPOT-ON. Take control of your free/bio available "T", and the E2 of course, and you can start to find that elusive "sweet spot." BTW, SHBG should be listed on your report as "Sex Hormone Binding Globulin." Hang in there, it just takes some time and patience.

[steroid.com 1]

Need to be careful with Nettle Root as it interferes with the conversion of Testosterone to DHT...and we need DHT...think libido and overall vitality...it's the king of all male hormones. In clinical research, Nettle Root has demonstrated its ability to stop the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (mostly by inhibiting the 5-Alpha-Reductase Enzyme required for the conversion), as well as to directly binding to SHBG itself - thereby preventing SHBG from binding to other hormones. So to me its mixed blessing of sorts, free up T BUT lower DHT. Make an informed decision.

By any chance did they run a complete Thyroid panel? Look for TSH, T4, T3, Rt3...if they ran these panels it would appear in its own section.

A lot of your symptoms could be caused by Hypothyroidism and it's not uncommon.

"I am frustrated and sick of feeling like it is a struggle to get out of bed everyday..."

This is what I think is going on; you have low DHEA levels as this can make you feel this exact way. If you're not back filling your pathways this is a very common symptom believe it or not. Try this, when you get up in the morning take 50 mg of DHEA then lay down for 15 minutes and see how you feel. If in a few days no change go to 100 mg and see if anything happens. Crisler does this for his guys who have the exact same complaints with great success.

[Shol'va]

So I got my annual BW back and am kinda bummed out at the results... I have been on trt for around six months of 200mg EW of tes cyp.
I have felt a little better but not really jumpin thru hoops kind of better. I am still very tired all the time and dont have much motivation at all still. sex life is not really improved too much either.

And then when the doc called me to go over results she was a little shocked at the fact that my levels were only at 705 with free at 15..They upped my weekly dose to 300mg PW...
Seems like from what most everyone else says my total tes should be around 1000 if taking 200mg PW.

Anyone have any input as to why numbers are so low still.

Congratulations, your doctor now has you officially on a full time low end cycle with his/her blessing. Wow! Seriously I don't know if that is a good or bad thing health wise for you. Hopefully they can figure why the low dose isn't keeping your numbers where they should be and get you back down to 150 weekly to 200 weekly doses. But I'm sure also that there are several who are always on cycle without any adverse affects. 300 just seems wild for a doc to give to their patients but whatever works. Keep us posted. And I wonder what happens if your numbers still don't get up high enough, I wonder if they will increase it to 400 weekly. This is all new ground for me and I'm just an observer on this one. But as long as it doesn't in any way hurt your body, and you want to feel better, I know I would if I were in your shoes. Also it looks like the pharmacy will be giving you the 10ml bottles now..

[kelkel]

^^Agree 100%. Adding fuel to the fire won't help. That amount is more than I ever did for competitions back in the day.

(gd check your mail)

[zaggahamma]

gdevine

do you have a clue on how to lower shbg without the stinging nettle then...

interesting post

[steroid.com 1]

gdevine

do you have a clue on how to lower shbg without the stinging nettle then...

I don't J. Wish I did. Men just need to know that Nettle Root is a double edged sword. I don't take it for the exact reason noted; I don't want to mess with my DHT levels...no way and no how.

Herbs can be good and bad. It's hard to control them and like anything else men react differently to them...some over sensitive and others where nothing happens whatsoever.

Need to be careful...

[Vettester]

Do pregnenolone, DHEA, B12, and all that stuff to get your energy and brain function up, BUT, getting your E2 out of the low teens is a MUST! If you want to know all your values, run a full battery of labs and post them up for comment. There could indeed be other variables like the Thyroid, which will play havoc with you if it's not in balance. Rule it out, along with everything else.

[steroid.com 1]

Do pregnenolone, DHEA, B12, and all that stuff to get your energy and brain function up, BUT, getting your E2 out of the low teens is a MUST! If you want to know all your values, run a full battery of labs and post them up for comment. There could indeed be other variables like the Thyroid, which will play havoc with you if it's not in balance. Rule it out, along with everything else.

Even Adrenal Fatigue...Cortisol levels???

[Vettester]

Even Adrenal Fatigue...Cortisol levels???

What about them?

[spoonta66]

What about them?

It was a question..........

[Vettester]

It was a question..........

I think that I've ascertained that GD was asking a question. What's the question?? Is it should a cortisol test be given?? Just looking to clarify ... Do you have that clarification, spoonta?

[spoonta66]

To me (assumed of course) it looks like he is asking if he had cortisol levels done and if so are they within the normal am fasted range of 160-650 nmol/L. He may also have been going to offer some advise if they were not in that range?

[lovbyts]

Lots of good information so far guys, keep it coming and keep us updated on your results Sicko. To bad about the stinging Nettle Root, it sounded promising.

[Vettester]

Lots of good information so far guys, keep it coming and keep us updated on your results Sicko. To bad about the stinging Nettle Root, it sounded promising.

Who's to say it isn't promising? Thousands upon thousands of people use it everyday for many reasons, and it's quite effective. GDevine doesn't like it because of it's affinity for DHT. Fair enough, but wouldn't DHT levels be exponentially increased already while on TRT due to the substantial amount of conversion taking place downstream now that exogenous hormones are introduced in the body? Maybe some guys are having some hair loss issues, so a little reduction in DHT isn't going to be the worse thing. As stated to jpkman, this should be taken in moderation, as should anything. I've seen before/after labs on SHBG using SNR, I would love to see the same on DHT levels, and what the trade off really is.

[zaggahamma]

about test levels in regards to shgb, etc....

i dont check levels/do labs often..in fact its been a while...

the reason i am interested in lowering shgb there is one clue that makes me wonder about that is some weeks/months i have to shave everyday and then others it could be every 2 maybe 3 days...and it just makes me point to this...idk...nothing scientific but just sayin...

[steroid.com 1]

To me (assumed of course) it looks like he is asking if he had cortisol levels done and if so are they within the normal am fasted range of 160-650 nmol/L. He may also have been going to offer some advise if they were not in that range?

Well stated; my position. A man who gets a full night of sleep and can't muster the energy to get out of bed in the morning is presenting some key symptoms. There are many things that can contribute to that and without full labs anything here is pure speculation. I threw out there low DHEA levels as he's symptomatic for that and this is not an uncommon event if he's not back filling his pathways. Dr. Crisler speaks well on this exact subject and symptoms and states when he adds in 50 to 100 mg of DHEA he often sees a marked difference in how men feel upon waking.

I also threw out there Adrenal Fatigue; Cortisol levels would tell this quickly as his symptoms would point to this as a possibility as well.

[steroid.com 1]

Who's to say it isn't promising? Thousands upon thousands of people use it everyday for many reasons, and it's quite effective. GDevine doesn't like it because of it's affinity for DHT. Fair enough, but wouldn't DHT levels be exponentially increased already while on TRT due to the substantial amount of conversion taking place downstream now that exogenous hormones are introduced in the body? Maybe some guys are having some hair loss issues, so a little reduction in DHT isn't going to be the worse thing. As stated to jpkman, this should be taken in moderation, as should anything. I've seen before/after labs on SHBG using SNR, I would love to see the same on DHT levels, and what the trade off really is.

Well stated Vetteman, thank you.

I never said NOT to take it; I just stated that men need to know how this herb acts on the endocrine system. Nettle Root is clinically proven to inhibit the 5-Alpha-Reductase Enzyme required for the conversion of Test to DHT. Would it lower DHT enough to impact libido and erectile function on a TRT protocol? I don't know; but I think it's a fair probability. It's probably dose dependent and how an individuals own body reacts to the drug that will be the deciding factor.

The problem with herbs, and many supplements for that matter, is that they are not regulated and not tested by the likes of the FDA so it's a crap shoot what you are injesting (quality, potency...)

Yes, Nettle Root can lower SHBG but it could/might lower DHT as well...and we need DHT!

As a side; my own personal TRT Physician warned me of this as well whatever that's worth to you.

As I stated, a man needs to make an informed decision.

[Titleesq]

Very informative thread guys. So much knowledge. This is exactly why I'm a member of this forum.

BTW, I hardly ever see anyone asking about IGF-1 levels. If these are low, or lowish, they mimic the exact symptoms of low T. Just food for thought.

Good luck Sicko!!!

[Sicko]

POssibly too low E2 and too much ai
I think the standard by here is 1mg per 100test..

That is right where they had me... 1/2mg eod = 2mg ew. 200mg tes pw..

Sicko, on the E2, I'll give you my .02, and that will be just that, my .02. Others will have their thoughts, which is why this is a great forum.

My thoughts are that you are overdoing it on your AI. I suspect this is a HUGE factor to why you're tired/lethargic, which in turn is contributing to your decline in motivation, and definitely contributing to your libido issues. 12.2 on your E2, IMO, is probably your biggest culprit. I know for clinical purposes, that score falls into range, but for practical purposes it is not good. There's going to be lots of debate between many "Knowledgeable" members as to what the optimal number is, we can discuss that if you like. However, I personally have no doubt that these sides (and others like joint pain) is almost a for sure situation when you get under 20. If it were me, I'd knock it back to 0.5 x 2/wk for 1 month, then run labs. 25 or 30 on your E2 will make a HUGE difference in your program, that's my .02

Also, everyone is completely different. 200mg/wk shouldn't have expectations to hit 1,000 on the serum score. There's guys hitting 800 on 100mg/wk. IMO, your score is SPOT-ON. Take control of your free/bio available "T", and the E2 of course, and you can start to find that elusive "sweet spot." BTW, SHBG should be listed on your report as "Sex Hormone Binding Globulin." Hang in there, it just takes some time and patience.

will give 1mg per week a shot, I thought it was better to be lower with the E2...I was at 36.3..doc said that was part of the problem, free tes was low and E2 was high...
Yeah its weird, shbg is not on this test report, I will have to ask wtf??

Need to be careful with Nettle Root as it interferes with the conversion of Testosterone to DHT...and we need DHT...think libido and overall vitality...it's the king of all male hormones. In clinical research, Nettle Root has demonstrated its ability to stop the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (mostly by inhibiting the 5-Alpha-Reductase Enzyme required for the conversion), as well as to directly binding to SHBG itself - thereby preventing SHBG from binding to other hormones. So to me its mixed blessing of sorts, free up T BUT lower DHT. Make an informed decision.

By any chance did they run a complete Thyroid panel? Look for TSH, T4, T3, Rt3...if they ran these panels it would appear in its own section.

A lot of your symptoms could be caused by Hypothyroidism and it's not uncommon.

"I am frustrated and sick of feeling like it is a struggle to get out of bed everyday..."

This is what I think is going on; you have low DHEA levels as this can make you feel this exact way. If you're not back filling your pathways this is a very common symptom believe it or not. Try this, when you get up in the morning take 50 mg of DHEA then lay down for 15 minutes and see how you feel. If in a few days no change go to 100 mg and see if anything happens. Crisler does this for his guys who have the exact same complaints with great success.

interesting facts on the snr..here are tsh and t4, t3 and rt3 not on report.
TSH 1.05 .450-4.5 T4 8 4.5-12
Will look into dhea as well as Crisler studies. Thanks..

Congratulations, your doctor now has you officially on a full time low end cycle with his/her blessing. Wow! Seriously I don't know if that is a good or bad thing health wise for you. Hopefully they can figure why the low dose isn't keeping your numbers where they should be and get you back down to 150 weekly to 200 weekly doses. But I'm sure also that there are several who are always on cycle without any adverse affects. 300 just seems wild for a doc to give to their patients but whatever works. Keep us posted. And I wonder what happens if your numbers still don't get up high enough, I wonder if they will increase it to 400 weekly. This is all new ground for me and I'm just an observer on this one. But as long as it doesn't in any way hurt your body, and you want to feel better, I know I would if I were in your shoes. Also it looks like the pharmacy will be giving you the 10ml bottles now..

Yeah it seems high to me also..scrip is already issued 10ml at a time...next order will be doubled

Do pregnenolone, DHEA, B12, and all that stuff to get your energy and brain function up, BUT, getting your E2 out of the low teens is a MUST! If you want to know all your values, run a full battery of labs and post them up for comment. There could indeed be other variables like the Thyroid, which will play havoc with you if it's not in balance. Rule it out, along with everything else.

Already use B12 am going to look into dhea and pregnenolone as well.
I am not very computer literate so i am having difficult time posting my results. They were sent to me in PDF and this site doesnt seem to let you post.Plus of course I need to edit out personal info too.

Well stated; my position. A man who gets a full night of sleep and can't muster the energy to get out of bed in the morning is presenting some key symptoms. There are many things that can contribute to that and without full labs anything here is pure speculation. I threw out there low DHEA levels as he's symptomatic for that and this is not an uncommon event if he's not back filling his pathways. Dr. Crisler speaks well on this exact subject and symptoms and states when he adds in 50 to 100 mg of DHEA he often sees a marked difference in how men feel upon waking.

I also threw out there Adrenal Fatigue; Cortisol levels would tell this quickly as his symptoms would point to this as a possibility as well.

I will ask for these to be tested with my next panel.

Very informative thread guys. So much knowledge. This is exactly why I'm a member of this forum.

BTW, I hardly ever see anyone asking about IGF-1 levels. If these are low, or lowish, they mimic the exact symptoms of low T. Just food for thought.
Igf is 162 101-267

Good luck Sicko!!!

[Sicko]

Thanks for all the responses and advice guys...

[steroid.com 1]

interesting facts on the snr..here are tsh and t4, t3 and rt3 not on report.
TSH 1.05 .450-4.5 T4 8 4.5-12

TSH levels are excellent.

T4 is fine, like to see this on the high side.

T3? The conversion from T4 to T3 is important. Do you have this sicko?

Looks like Thyroid is fine.

[lovbyts]

Who's to say it isn't promising? Thousands upon thousands of people use it everyday for many reasons, and it's quite effective. GDevine doesn't like it because of it's affinity for DHT. Fair enough, but wouldn't DHT levels be exponentially increased already while on TRT due to the substantial amount of conversion taking place downstream now that exogenous hormones are introduced in the body? Maybe some guys are having some hair loss issues, so a little reduction in DHT isn't going to be the worse thing. As stated to jpkman, this should be taken in moderation, as should anything. I've seen before/after labs on SHBG using SNR, I would love to see the same on DHT levels, and what the trade off really is.

that's exactly what I meant by keep it coming. Of course I'm doing my own fact finding but I like the discussion. I didnt mean for it to sound like I was writing it off.

[Sicko]

interesting facts on the snr..here are tsh and t4, t3 and rt3 not on report.
TSH 1.05 .450-4.5 T4 8 4.5-12

TSH levels are excellent.

T4 is fine, like to see this on the high side.

T3? The conversion from T4 to T3 is important. Do you have this sicko?

Looks like Thyroid is fine.

No T3 or shbg on the report . Am going to call the doc and see why not.

[Vettester]

No T3 or shbg on the report . Am going to call the doc and see why not.

Don't feel too bad, my primary doc would never test for most of these, including SHBG, E2, and Free "T". The best my PCP would do on the thyroid was TSH. And of course the range is 1.0 to 4.5, so just about everyone to them is "normal." Obviously, I made a choice to go find someone who specializes with treating this stuff properly.