DHEA and Pregnenolone

[Drmagic]

I just want you guys to know that oral DHEA and Preg are largely ineffective. You need transdermal applications. You can but online both in 15 mg doses...you need more so just up the amount you apply.

Also note, if you are deficient in either of these hormones you will feel an amount of anxiety and nervousness when you first apply.

This is TOTALLY normal and a sign you were deficient in these critical early stage hormones. It will get better and you will feel better.

Both are a must in a TRT protocol in my opinion and often over looked.

Just to stir the pot a little more here, I have heard over and over at A4M coferences that DHEA is minimaly absorbed because of the size of the molecule, A4M is all about evidence based medicine but I notice at times there are statements made without any evidence to back it up and this is one of them, guess I'll have to do some digging on this one to, you guys are goint to keep me busy. I have found oral DHEA to be very effective in my practice based on blood work and patient response but it has to be micronized for best absorption and that is where people go wrong - I carry the micronized version in my office because the otc stuff is largely crap and not micronized.

[steroid.com 1]

Doc - How much do you dose?

Let's say a man takes 50 mg of DHEA after the stomach digestive acids destroy a good deal of the formula it then has to first pass the liver where much of what is left is passed through. What makes it into the blood stream is at best 5%?

Also can't the liver convert DHEA into unwanted metabolites?

My Doc is also an A4M and TRT Physician and almost nerver prescribes oral for just these reasons.

I also study the protocols prescribed by Dr. Crisler and can point you specifically to an interview with Carl Lanor where he discusses this in great detail.

What you can provide on the micronized formula will be very interesting and I am sure the guys would like to know how it can survive the digestive process as this would be fantastic news.

I assume you need a scrip for the micronized version? Many men here by direct so this is important as well to know.

Thank you.

VS

[Drmagic]

Doc - How much do you dose?

Let's say a man takes 50 mg of DHEA after the stomach digestive acids destroy a good deal of the formula it then has to first pass the liver where much of what is left is passed through. What makes it into the blood stream is at best 5%?

Also can't the liver convert DHEA into unwanted metabolites?

My Doc is also an A4M and TRT Physician and almost nerver prescribes oral for just these reasons.

I also study the protocols prescribed by Dr. Crisler and can point you specifically to an interview with Carl Lanor where he discusses this in great detail.

pretty standard doses, 25 - 50 for men, 10 - 20 for women, everything oral comes with possible metabolites and first pass issues. I would really like to see the research to support either position, an interview doesn't help much when trying to rationalize treatment protocols. This is an ongoing debate like many of the other topics we are discussing. I can tell you though that I see marked changes in blood work DHEA with oral doses for men and women and when I have them back off, their labs come back down. Women also tend to preferentially shunt DHEA to adrogens and get more oily skin and acne and again when I back them off their symptoms resolve - its antecdotal but I really watch patterns in my practice and base treatments on what I see combined with what I am being taught - it is an evolving science. You get much better absorption from the micronized version - it protects it from the GI tract degredation.

[lvs]

Damn I wish I was in Tampa!

[steroid.com 1]

pretty standard doses, 25 - 50 for men, 10 - 20 for women, everything oral comes with possible metabolites and first pass issues. I would really like to see the research to support either position, an interview doesn't help much when trying to rationalize treatment protocols. This is an ongoing debate like many of the other topics we are discussing. I can tell you though that I see marked changes in blood work DHEA with oral doses for men and women and when I have them back off, their labs come back down. Women also tend to preferentially shunt DHEA to adrogens and get more oily skin and acne and again when I back them off their symptoms resolve - its antecdotal but I really watch patterns in my practice and base treatments on what I see combined with what I am being taught - it is an evolving science. You get much better absorption from the micronized version - it protects it from the GI tract degredation.

LOVE IT!

Makes a compelling argument for Oral Supplementation and a real convenience for the guys!

Great stuff

[bigboy67]

my DHEA supplementation is in pill form, and when i ran my adrenocortex profile to chck my cortisol/DHEA levels, I was pretty high on DHEA. Could it be that I absorb DHEA better than most? else, why would my results be that high?

for reference, my DHEA came back 810 (ref. range 71-640 pg/mL)

[WerewolfBaby]

my Pregnenolone is 648 on a 38-350 scale....isn't that super high.....aren't most of you low if you are talking about supplimenting. I am looking into HRT,on nothing now. I did 1 nine week cycle of Sust+Deca and messed myself up this past summer. Is it super rare to have this high Pregnenolone when
1. My Free T is 9.62 in 1.9-27 range, TT is a low 202-385 depending on range, my E2 is super high 51.4 so thinking of doing Liquidex .5 twice/week? and I started taking Zinc. My DHEA is low 165 so should I buy some OTC pills or that cream?

Thanks, please advise on my Please Help thread

[Drmagic]

my DHEA supplementation is in pill form, and when i ran my adrenocortex profile to chck my cortisol/DHEA levels, I was pretty high on DHEA. Could it be that I absorb DHEA better than most? else, why would my results be that high?

for reference, my DHEA came back 810 (ref. range 71-640 pg/mL)

Thats a pretty high DHEA level, as I've said in prior posts, I have not seen an issue with oral supplementation of DHEA. People tend to absorb things differently orally and topically so finding what works for you is what matters, I'd lower the dose you are on now though, too much of any hormone can cause problems everything else. This is a pretty high reference range, is this saliva or blood? Also is the test a DHEA or DHEA-S?

[bigboy67]

Thats a pretty high DHEA level, as I've said in prior posts, I have not seen an issue with oral supplementation of DHEA. People tend to absorb things differently orally and topically so finding what works for you is what matters, I'd lower the dose you are on now though, too much of any hormone can cause problems everything else. This is a pretty high reference range, is this saliva or blood? Also is the test a DHEA or DHEA-S?

It was a saliva test in which I had to spit into test tubes at 6am, 11am, 3pm, and 10pm. Looks to be DHEA, not DHEA-S (at least all of the references on the paper say only DHEA)

[Bill_boy2005]

I will be starting on the RS transderm tomorrow when I get home from Reno. Be nice to have a few things leveled out before my bw in a few weeks.

[flatscat]

^^^^^ started last night

[Drmagic]

It was a saliva test in which I had to spit into test tubes at 6am, 11am, 3pm, and 10pm. Looks to be DHEA, not DHEA-S (at least all of the references on the paper say only DHEA)

figured it was saliva with that ref range, I'd back off the dose to try to stay in upper normal range.

[ConArmas]

Micronized DHEA is readliy availiable and cheap. I am intrigued by what Drmagic stated.

[WerewolfBaby]

This is the only thread about Pregnenolone, so please answer me a bit is my huge number of it OK? How common is that with Low TT numbers? Usually with Low T wouldn't you be Low in Pregnenolone too? Is high Pregnenolone good as an Anti Inflammatory or is high numbers common in people with Auto Immune diseases like Lupus (my case) or RA?

I started 25 mg pil Micornized DHEA yesterday due to this thread, even that low dose you got to figure some turns into T and some into E right? So Nim+Zinc for that, and looking into Chyrsin or Nettle Root

thanks

[flatscat]

I will be starting on the RS transderm tomorrow when I get home from Reno. Be nice to have a few things leveled out before my bw in a few weeks.

How do you like it?

[ecdysone]

Micronized DHEA is readliy availiable and cheap. I am intrigued by what Drmagic stated.

I've been using 50 mg for a few months but need to get some BW.

I think the point to remember is the half-life of the DHEA-S (the circulating form) is <8 hours. I believe the theory behind the micronized form is it slows down absorption thereby stretching out the apparent half-life.

Some people are extremely rapid metabolizers, others are not. For the slower metabolizers, the oral form will work.

Otherwise, you need to deposit it into the skin or SQ fat to slow down the absorption.

So might be good to try both and see what works best in your particular case.

edit to say: Can't remember where I saw it, but most studies have shown that oral DHEA increases E2 levels but TD does not - something else to consider.

[oscarjones]

Anyone shed some light on 7-keto DHEA? Supposedly it doesnt raise estrogen like regular DHEA?

[flatscat]

Do a search here. Gdevine had a pretty good post on it a month or two ago.

[JD250]

GD, I've read where the doses of Pregnenolone suggested on labels are way too high, seems like there are those who believe 1 to 5 mgs a day 5days out of 7 is enough, also reports of heart palpatations on higher doses, do you have links to any studies on Pregnenolone or its dosing? It seems as though it hasn't been studied to any great extent that I can find.

[steroid.com 1]

JD - Pregnenolone is pretty safe all things considered and it would take huge doses to see real negative effects. That being said, all people are different and some will over metabolize while others hardly metabolize at all. 50 mg per day of preg is not a lot. Figure, after the pill gets damn near wiped out by the gastric juices in the stomach it has to go through a "first pass effect" which essentially means the liver takes out much of the remaining active formula dumping at best 5% of the original dose into the blood stream. The micronized formulas seem to get a higher absorption rate but by how much I don't know.

Here's some good stuff to read JD:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2011/...enolone_04.htm
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/...rt_preg_01.htm
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2005/nov2005_aas_01.htm
http://www.futurescience.com/dhea.html (Note the link at the bottom of this page re Deprenyl/Selegiline)

I study Life Extension Foundation reports religiously!

I recently updated the Sticky on Pregnenolone as well but the links above should keep you busy my friend

[JD250]

Good stuff GD, I always try to err on the side of caution with health issues, when I hear negative I always like to dig even deeper to discover if it's founded or just hot air. That article on Deprenyl is VERY interesting! You using it?

[moparmuscle]

I just want you guys to know that oral DHEA and Preg are largely ineffective. You need transdermal applications. You can but online both in 15 mg doses...you need more so just up the amount you apply.

Also note, if you are deficient in either of these hormones you will feel an amount of anxiety and nervousness when you first apply.

This is TOTALLY normal and a sign you were deficient in these critical early stage hormones. It will get better and you will feel better.

Both are a must in a TRT protocol in my opinion and often over looked.

Agreed. Transdermal is the way to go. I do 30mg ed transdermal

[steroid.com 1]

Good stuff GD, I always try to err on the side of caution with health issues, when I hear negative I always like to dig even deeper to discover if it's founded or just hot air. That article on Deprenyl is VERY interesting! You using it?

Yes JD, 3 mg per day coadministered with my preg and hcg cream.

[PPC]

pretty standard doses, 25 - 50 for men, 10 - 20 for women, everything oral comes with possible metabolites and first pass issues. I would really like to see the research to support either position, an interview doesn't help much when trying to rationalize treatment protocols. This is an ongoing debate like many of the other topics we are discussing. I can tell you though that I see marked changes in blood work DHEA with oral doses for men and women and when I have them back off, their labs come back down. Women also tend to preferentially shunt DHEA to adrogens and get more oily skin and acne and again when I back them off their symptoms resolve - its antecdotal but I really watch patterns in my practice and base treatments on what I see combined with what I am being taught - it is an evolving science. You get much better absorption from the micronized version - it protects it from the GI tract degredation.

Just to keep this interesting thread going I'll share some of my own experience. The above is accurate in my case. 10mg of oral DHEA per day is my sweet spot. Anything above that and I get acne and oily skin.... pull the dose back and the sides goes away while the benefits persist.

Without DHEA, my skin is drier...a small dose just gives me enough oil to endure the elements of sun and wind without the prior breakdown I used to get. I find 10mg per day to be a nice (mild) libido enhancer (sort of keeps sex drive tuned rather than lagging.) I also use it due to studies showing it has anti breast cancer qualities.

It defenitely has androgenic qualities in women. I have a female friend who's Doc writes her a script to have it compounded into pills of only 2.5mg... above that she gets severe acne and oily skin. We're all different. As are the men in my life. I have two brothers on on TRT (pellets), one Father on T (gel), a husband on T (gel) and 3 close male friends (a couple are using shots, the other pellets) . Oral DHEA seems to have vastly different effects on each guy. One of my brothers feels fantastic on 50mg of oral DHEA split into two doses. He's tried a cream and does not feel the same positive effects. The other brother feels awful whenever he has tried oral DHEA. My husband cannot seem to tolerate the oral version... he gets high E2 symptoms and goes down hill.

Each guy I know is vastly unique in his response to oral. All this to say,oral is obviously a potent pathway but can be either positive or negative in results.

[JD250]

PPC.....the point that "we are all different" is VERY important to remember and needs to be stressed more in these threads, Thanks for your input and examples.



GD, I have some DHEA and Pregnenolone creams on the way, I'll give it a try at low dose before working my way up and see how it goes, I found it interesting that Pregnenolone was used with success to treat severe arthritis, those were very high doses but still interesting stuff.

[steroid.com 1]

PPC.....the point that "we are all different" is VERY important to remember and needs to be stressed more in these threads, Thanks for your input and examples.



GD, I have some DHEA and Pregnenolone creams on the way, I'll give it a try at low dose before working my way up and see how it goes, I found it interesting that Pregnenolone was used with success to treat severe arthritis, those were very high doses but still interesting stuff.

Good to titrate up JD; some men who are deficient in either one of these will feel a sense of anxiety if dosed full amount. Work your way up and you will be fine.

As many of you know, I am a big proponent of back filling the pathways when a man is in some form of HPTA suppression.

Keep us posted on your outcome JD.

[flatscat]

I will be starting on the RS transderm tomorrow when I get home from Reno. Be nice to have a few things leveled out before my bw in a few weeks.

Have you seen the price of this lately??? Now going for like 125.... geeze - got mine for like 64. I do think it is an awesome product though - guess I gotta find another one. Any suggestions?

[steroid.com 1]

Have you seen the price of this lately??? Now going for like 125.... geeze - got mine for like 64. I do think it is an awesome product though - guess I gotta find another one. Any suggestions?

Flats - A lot of Docs are having great success with the pill form that is micronized. I believe you can purchase it from www.lef.org now.

Probably a great difference in price and possibly a better uptake option.

My Doc loves creams but is now offering micronized pills as well as he's seeing excellent results.

Read Doc M's post here as well on the subject.

[flatscat]

Thanks g.

[Bill_boy2005]

Amazon you can find it for $84. Still think that's too high. The guy who bought Ruthless Supplements seems to be marketing as a steroid alternative. I am looking at the life extension products due to cost. Its also a pain in the ass to fly with due to its size and Canadian customs was all over it too.