GD's BW - Have at it boys!

**Brohim** · 12-06-2011, 04:12 PM

I heard he and the PA did some "cardio" right before the pull.

**steroid.com 1** · 12-06-2011, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Brohim

I heard he and the PA did some "cardio" right before the pull.

She is SMOKING HOT...I kid you not

**Brohim** · 12-06-2011, 04:21 PM

You lucky bastard. Did you mention to her you have erections like an 18 year old?

**kelkel** · 12-08-2011, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by jpkman

cheerios?

In the words of Flats, "epic"

**Drmagic** · 12-08-2011, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

Thanks Doc, means a lot coming from you.

Yes, I inject in the lower abdominal area near the "love handle" area just like hCG . Have to really pinch the skin, however, as there's not too much fat anymore

Question for you regarding my BW: Where do you like to see DHT levels? We tested DHT the first time and I was a little surprised that I was mid range given my Testosterone levels . I would think mid to upper levels would be ideal. Appreciate your thoughts Doc.

gd

To be honest, DHT is not something that was emphasized much in my training other than don't let it go too high or too low. Not like estrogen and test levels that seem to have a definite number to shoot for. It seems to be the forgotten hormone. I have patients that come in on prop$cia that have DHT levels in single digits and have no issues and others that are way above normal so I think there is more to this particual hormone than we are aware of. This is one of the topics I have tried to do a little more research on since coming to this forum, I'll keep you posted. I have a diagram of the hormone cascade that has lists of foods, supplements and medications that promote or limit conversions between hormones that I will try to post, maybe you'll see something on it that helps. If I can make it work I'll post it as a new thread.

**steroid.com 1** · 12-09-2011, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Drmagic

To be honest, DHT is not something that was emphasized much in my training other than don't let it go too high or too low. Not like estrogen and test levels that seem to have a definite number to shoot for. It seems to be the forgotten hormone. I have patients that come in on prop$cia that have DHT levels in single digits and have no issues and others that are way above normal so I think there is more to this particual hormone than we are aware of. This is one of the topics I have tried to do a little more research on since coming to this forum, I'll keep you posted. I have a diagram of the hormone cascade that has lists of foods, supplements and medications that promote or limit conversions between hormones that I will try to post, maybe you'll see something on it that helps. If I can make it work I'll post it as a new thread.

First, thanks for your input Doc.

I agree, it is the "forgotten hormone" and the one most critical for men. As you know, it is extremely powerful as it is three times more androgenic than testosterone and is the essence of all things male. I know it is principally responsible for libido; many men who "add in" DHT claim significant increases in sex drive.

It also gets a bad rape as well; probably do to male pattern baldness at higher levels and lower DHT level may also help explain cause for ED symptoms.

From my research, about 5% of Total Testosterone should be converting to DHT via 5-AR so it may be one way to measure optimal levels.

Keep us posted Doc, this is one hormone I think we need to pay attention to much like we do Test, E2, Progesterone and Cortisol.

gd

**zaggahamma** · 12-09-2011, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

First, thanks for your input Doc.

I agree, it is the "forgotten hormone" and the one most critical for men. As you know, it is extremely powerful as it is three times more androgenic than testosterone and is the essence of all things male. I know it is principally responsible for libido; many men who "add in" DHT claim significant increases in sex drive.

It also gets a bad rape as well; probably do to male pattern baldness at higher levels and lower DHT level may also help explain cause for ED symptoms.

From my research, about 5% of Total Testosterone should be converting to DHT via 5-AR so it may be one way to measure optimal levels.

Keep us posted Doc, this is one hormone I think we need to pay attention to much like we do Test, E2, Progesterone and Cortisol.

gd

how and why quotes

**kelkel** · 12-09-2011, 04:29 PM

Here's an interesting quote re DHT:

"It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the full performance enhan***ent effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system that lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress—not to mention optimal sexual function and libido."

T is in the muscle, DHT is everywhere else.

**steroid.com 1** · 12-10-2011, 11:23 AM

Great quote kel; where'd you find this? Is there more?

J - Like all hormones optimal levels is key for all things we know here and DHT is one of them. Like DocM said, it is in some ways the "forgotten hormone" yet it is all things male!

Too low levels = Female traits. Too high level = Hair loss and other things.

Plays a huge role in libido!

DHT can be added to a HRT protocol through the use of a transdermal cream; can even be bought online over seas.

I am mid range on my DHT assay and I am investigating where the optimal range is. I haven't had a conversation with my Doc yet, but even DocM didn't seem to know.

I am really looking forward to his response on this as well.

I am tempted to trial some DHT cream for a month to get to the 80%+ range rather then the 50% I am sitting now. I've been really curious about this hormone for some time and anxious to see what a trial would do for me.

**zaggahamma** · 12-10-2011, 02:05 PM

Thanks

**ecdysone** · 12-10-2011, 06:16 PM

Did the gel route for a few months and my DHT shot up to 4x normal (due to the 5-AR enzymes in the skin). Can't say it did anything for me other than greasy skin and some mild acne.

My theory is you want to either: (1) keep it well within range, or (2) ignore it since it's part of the HPTA feedback loop and screwing with it while on TRT could be detrimental.

I could see its possible use in lieu of TRT but for us, I'm not sure it has any special function that we would want to manipulate - at least nothing that test doesn't provide.

**zaggahamma** · 12-11-2011, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by ecdysone

Did the gel route for a few months and my DHT shot up to 4x normal (due to the 5-AR enzymes in the skin). Can't say it did anything for me other than greasy skin and some mild acne.

My theory is you want to either: (1) keep it well within range, or (2) ignore it since it's part of the HPTA feedback loop and screwing with it while on TRT could be detrimental.

I could see its possible use in lieu of TRT but for us, I'm not sure it has any special function that we would want to manipulate - at least nothing that test doesn't provide.

i've always thought the same thing and fortunately for me its mininal..that is..if you were referring to the acne

**Vettester** · 12-11-2011, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by ecdysone

Did the gel route for a few months and my DHT shot up to 4x normal (due to the 5-AR enzymes in the skin). Can't say it did anything for me other than greasy skin and some mild acne.

My theory is you want to either: (1) keep it well within range, or (2) ignore it since it's part of the HPTA feedback loop and screwing with it while on TRT could be detrimental.

I could see its possible use in lieu of TRT but for us, I'm not sure it has any special function that we would want to manipulate - at least nothing that test doesn't provide.

Agree with you 100% ... My DHT was also increased during the 1st phase when I was on Gel, it didn't add any benefit like increasing my strength by leaps and bounds. In fact, my biggest increases at the gym have been when I've lowered my SHBG, which in turn blocked DHT, but increased my free and bio available T. Also like you, all the extra DHT did was cause skin problems. I'll stick to what I know works.

**steroid.com 1** · 12-11-2011, 02:16 PM

We shouldn't expect benefits like increased muscle development due to DHT. DHT requires 5-AR to convert from Testosterone . There is very little 5-AR in muscle tissue so very little, to any, conversion taking place. Also, any DHT that does make it into muscle tissue is quickly deactivated by 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase enzyme within the muscle tissue anyway.

I want to learn more about DHT is its effect on:

1. The Central Nervous System and increased neurological efficiency
2. Impact on increased resistance to psychological and physical stress
3. Impact on sexual function and libido

I know of a few guys stating a nice increase in libido and erection quality.

What I want to really know is the optimal range for DHT???

Still digging...

**steroid.com 1** · 12-11-2011, 02:22 PM

[QUOTE=ecdysone;5830443]
My theory is you want to either: (1) keep it well within range,
What is the range? Lab reference ranges? What is optimal...mid?

or (2) ignore it since it's part of the HPTA feedback loop and screwing with it while on TRT could be detrimental.QUOTE]
I get you here but we screw around with a few things in the HPTA feedback loop...Testosterone ...hCG /LH...AI/E2...DHEA...Pregnenelone...

Some men don't convert DHT well do to 5-AR issues so testing for it is important IMO.

We all look to optimize our androgen pathway and DHT is a very critical one as I think we'd all agree; just what is optimal I guess is the question of the day.

**ecdysone** · 12-11-2011, 05:47 PM

Good luck, bro, on your "diggings".

I wouldn't mind someone bringing a few solid studies to our attention. DHT has always been something of a mystery to me.

Most of the stuff easily accessible is simply anecdotal, which is why few Dr.'s seem to either know or support them.

I think the most significant problem is: on the one hand, DHT can fully substitute for testosterone in many ways.
On the other, it has little, if any anabolic effect... not that is necessarily bad.
Mixing the two is the problem I referred to in my post above. Worse yet, finding studies where anyone co-administered them is nearly impossible.

Just to reiterate my feelings (too ignorant to have any scientific thoughts here), best to keep it within range, either the norm or low end, e.g. 30-50 ng/dL.
That's the "optimal range" from LEF, and haven't seen much to challenge (or for that matter support) their numbers.

**steroid.com 1** · 12-11-2011, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by ecdysone

Good luck, bro, on your "diggings".

I wouldn't mind someone bringing a few solid studies to our attention. DHT has always been something of a mystery to me.

Most of the stuff easily accessible is simply anecdotal, which is why few Dr.'s seem to either know or support them.

I think the most significant problem is: on the one hand, DHT can fully substitute for testosterone in many ways.
On the other, it has little, if any anabolic effect... not that is necessarily bad.
Mixing the two is the problem I referred to in my post above. Worse yet, finding studies where anyone co-administered them is nearly impossible.

Just to reiterate my feelings (too ignorant to have any scientific thoughts here), best to keep it within range, either the norm or low end, e.g. 30-50 ng/dL.
That's the "optimal range" from LEF, and haven't seen much to challenge (or for that matter support) their numbers.

I am so with you and PLEASE anything you can find let's get it going man! It's not easy to find real research on DHT that makes sense for our purposes.

First, I can't really find anything of real medical nor clinical research that presents the type of information I am looking for. Hell, DocM even admits it.

I'll tell you what I am starting to think; were not really conducting Testosterone Repla***ent, were doing both; Testosterone Repla***ent AND DHT Repla***ent (most men and maybe Doc's don't even know it).

Secondly, DHT gets a lot of attention as invitro as it's what makes us male as a fetus and as a boy/man in adolesence. After that, it really doesn't seem to do much and get the kind of attention that the rest of the androgen pathway hormones get.

It's sort of like "well DHT did its job and now it's not really important"...and guess what...intiutively, I think it is really important.

I don't think Testosterone fixes libidol and ED issues...I think it's the actual conversion to DHT that provides the cure for some men.

Speculation? You bet your ass!

But not totally out of rational thinking when you really sit down and think about it.

I agree with you ecdysone, if a man is mid range on his DHT assay and all other panels are optimized....leave things the hell alone! No need to be mixing these two.

If, however, a man is poorly converting Testosterone to DHT due to 5-AR issues then it makes total sense to add some "DHT" into the mix and correct the pathway.

My DHT is mid range and probably right where it should be...or is it?

We see men who are mid range on Total Test, but present symptoms, and they go on a TRT protocol to correct.

Should it be the same for DHT?

Too many questions and not enough answers.

This one has me on a quest

**kelkel** · 12-11-2011, 08:32 PM

Guys, here's the full article from a bodybuilding site....Kind of explains it in simple terms...

A considerable chunk of my workday is always spent answering people's questions about prohormones and steroids . Of course, one of the biggest concerns people have is about estrogen and estrogen related side effects. Right behind that however are questions about DHT. It seems that people have the misconception that DHT is some evil androgen byproduct that serves no purpose in the body but to make our prostates blow up and our hair fall out.

The real situation is of course much more complex. DHT is one of those good guy/bad guy hormones that is sorely misunderstood. For many people, it is NOT something that you want to reduce or eliminate in the body. For some others though, keeping DHT levels under control is probably a prudent course of action. Knowing the facts about DHT will help you decide just which group you belong to.

Testosterone Is A Prohormone?

The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone. However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain (CNS), skin, genitals—practically everything but muscle—the active androgen is actually DHT. Testosterone in this case simply acts as a prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).

5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen dependent area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the body to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed into DHT, which then interacts with receptors.

This transformation serves a very important biological function in these tissues. You see, DHT is a much stronger androgen than testosterone - it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in physiology.

A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism due to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder, however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty occurs, their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT levels remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that of other adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic/body hair and underdeveloped prostate and penis. Their libido and sexual function is often disrupted also.

Testosterone Is The Active Androgen In Muscle

Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).

So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a, 17b-diol. If this enzyme were somehow blocked, it is likely that DHT would exhibit very potent anabolic effects on muscle.

It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the full performance enhan***ent effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system that lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress—not to mention optimal sexual function and libido.

I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with Proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhan***ent effects. What's going on here? We know it couldn't be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects. Specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

Anti-Estrogen Effects Of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard way—by developing a case of gynecomastia . By reducing DHT's protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification-bitch tits.

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus/pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.

DHT, Estrogen, And The Prostate

When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst most people.

The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and cancerous prostate growth.

The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized, healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the constant levels of high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen/androgen ratio—a condition common in older men—is highly correlated to the development of BPH.

Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. While, aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by addition of an aromatase inhibitor.

So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH. Or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.

None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the body.

"DHT can actually be used to treat benign
prostate hypertrophy (BPH)!"
As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH. The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent 5,648,350 Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy.

The following two paragraphs taken from the patent study illustrates the results:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to 2.5 to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as in the plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ ml (from 0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); as to the estradiol plasma levels, these decreased by 50% .
Among this group of subjects, the volume of the prostate diminished significantly, as was evaluated by ultrasound and by PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen). The mean volume of the prostates was from 31.09. + .16.31 grams before treatment and from 26.34. + -. 12.72 grams after treatment, for a mean reduction of 15.4%, the treatment having a mean duration of 1.8 years with DHT (P= 0.01).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The information from this study kind of flies in the face of the traditional thinking concerning BPH now doesn't it?

Conclusion

Unfortunately, people seem to have a natural tendency to classify things as either good or bad, black or white with absolutely no gray areas. DHT (like estrogen) has recently been on everyone's bad list, and is often considered to be a hormone that serves no function in the body except to cause harm. Now that you have all the necessary facts you can ultimately see, this view is far from the truth.

In my opinion, the widespread use of 5-AR inhibitors such as Proscar as a prophylactic agent for people that don't really need it should be highly reconsidered. After reading this I hope you'll agree with me or at least keep an open mind on this sensitive subject. In other words, why don't you just give DHT a break.

**steroid.com 1** · 12-11-2011, 09:30 PM

This is probably the best I've read yet on DHT and its role in the androgen pathway. I totally agree on the good guy / bad guy hormone as it relates to DHT.

Crisler's position on DHT is easy to pin down but only where he's been interviewed...I've seen nothing in writing.

BUT, his position is very similar to the article kel posted.

Question: Are we really supplementing Testosterone or are we setting up the conversion for DHT...the all things male hormone?

If you comprehend the argument in the article above...that's exactly the challenge here.

So interesting this track we're on here....what is the proper protocol for youthful/restorative levels of DHT???

**steroid.com 1** · 12-11-2011, 09:33 PM

We need a new thread on this topic.

**kelkel** · 12-12-2011, 07:52 AM

^^^absolutely. I thought the same thing and considered starting a thread with that article. To me it kept it simple and understandable and in my opinion plays directly into my own current predicament with high dht, low E. It will be interesting to see the level change in DHT/E when I switch over to injections.

**steroid.com 1** · 12-12-2011, 10:27 AM

kel - Your DHT levels will drop. The skin is loaded with 5-AR so conversion is high compared to injections where there is very little 5-AR in the muscle tissue.

**kelkel** · 12-12-2011, 11:19 AM

Yep. Trust me, been studying it cause it's affecting me personally! If this forum teaches you anything it's to do your research! Doc visit is this Friday so should be able to start new protocol on Monday if all goes as expected. Follow up bw will be interesting to chart the change of levels between the dht and E with the switch to injectables.