Too much hcg?

[OutLaw8.5]

Current protocol 40mg test e4days... .5mg adex day after test and 200iu hcg ed



Been on 200Iu hcg ed for about a month now... Started out best I've felt...

Haven't done blood work since addition of hcg and adex, but starting to have little brain fog and weaker erections again. THinking maybe too much hcg or not enough adex.


THOughts on switching to 250eod hcg until new blood?

[steroid.com 1]

Regarding your hCG : Probably a bit much for an ED protocol. I think you'd be better off at 250 EOD.

To your 2nd point: hCG would not cause these symptoms. What you are describing may be more related to E2 levels. Low E2 levels can cause these symptoms.

At .5 mg of an AI every 4 days is too much for the amount of Testosterone and hCG you are injecting. You may want to ask your Doc to cut back to .5 mg every 7 days and see how you feel.

Only BW will tell you the truth but I am willing to bet a bunch of beers your E2 is below 20.

Just my $0.02 my friend!

[ecdysone]

Honestly, your protocol sounds like too much of everything EXCEPT test.

You really can't take too much HCG with doses of several thousand IU's in fertility therapy being common. However, it doesn't do much to exceed what is needed to restore
testicular function, and that's around 100 IU or less per day. Anything more than about 1000IU/week is a waste of hormone any many guys do well with half that.

[steroid.com 1]

Honestly, your protocol sounds like too much of everything EXCEPT test.

You really can't take too much HCG with doses of several thousand IU's in fertility therapy being common. However, it doesn't do much to exceed what is needed to restore
testicular function, and that's around 100 IU or less per day. Anything more than about 1000IU/week is a waste of hormone any many guys do well with half that.

Not only that but too much hCG (500+ iu ED) can increase intratesticular E2 and AI's are largely ineffective in controlling.

[OutLaw8.5]

Starting to break out a bit with some that are decent sized as well. Forgot to add



I was under the impression the hcg would raise my e2 a little with my body producing more test now. I was border line over high e2 before I started hrt




I was thinking about trimming my hcg to 250eod

But you guys saying just try .5 adex a week instead of 1.0

IF so, when would you take the .5mg adex?

[OutLaw8.5]

Not only that but too much hCG (500+ iu ED) can increase intratesticular E2 and AI's are largely ineffective in controlling.

LIttle confused g... Your first post said you'd bet my e2 under 20 but saying at over 1000iu week ai may struggle to control e2... ANd I'm currently taking 1400Iu week???

[ecdysone]

IF so, when would you take the .5mg adex?

If you are a purist, it would be to coincide with the peak test level which would be about one day after you dosed with test.

From a practicality viewpoint, just take it the take you inject, that way you won't forget. And with a 2 day half-life, it would still "cover" the peak test level.

[JD250]

Outlaw, I believe what was said is that 1000iu a week was a WASTE of hormone, as in you've exceeded what is needed. Also if you're taking 500iu every day it will increase intratesticular e2 which can't be controlled with an AI.

What is your bloodwork like at 40mgs of test e4d?

[OutLaw8.5]

Sorry it took me a day... These results taken 8-12 hours after shot. On 8hour fast. No adex or hcg at this time. Just 40mg test c every four days.



Dht - 18L. 25-75 ng/dl

Total test - 655. 250-1100

Free test - 92.2 46-224

Bio. - 193.7. 110.0-575

Shbg. - 33. 10-50

Albumin serum 4.6. 3.6-5.1

Dhea -166. 110-510

E2. 34. 13-54

[Vettester]

Agree fully with GD!! If this is your BW before adding HCG and any AI, then I would also bet your are <20, if not <10.

Run the labs and find out for sure.

[OutLaw8.5]

THanks guys

[OutLaw8.5]

How long do you guys think I should go with out taking ai before I start again with lower dose. And when would you recommend me taking my .5mg if I'm taking shot every 3.5-4days?

[Vettester]

How long do you guys think I should go with out taking ai before I start again with lower dose. And when would you recommend me taking my .5mg if I'm taking shot every 3.5-4days?

First, I would get your new labs to see where you sit.

Also, yes, I would change up your protocol, especially on the HCG . The EOD idea you were considering would be something to look at, as well as breaking up your Cyp injections to every 3.5 days.

Recheck the other labs too. Your DHEA would (IMO) be much better in the 250-300 range, and I would suspect it would be beneficial for you to back fill with some pregnenolone.

Let us know the lab results, we will help you dial in your protocol, and it will be easier to help you on the E2 when those results are in.

[dec11]

why do you guys take hcg ? is it just to keep size in the testes?

[OutLaw8.5]

First, I would get your new labs to see where you sit.

Also, yes, I would change up your protocol, especially on the HCG . The EOD idea you were considering would be something to look at, as well as breaking up your Cyp injections to every 3.5 days.

Recheck the other labs too. Your DHEA would (IMO) be much better in the 250-300 range, and I would suspect it would be beneficial for you to back fill with some pregnenolone.

Let us know the lab results, we will help you dial in your protocol, and it will be easier to help you on the E2 when those results are in.

Yeah I read where gd is going Sunday morning and wed evening. I like that. Much more simple than every fourth day. I've already but my hcg to 250eod... And gonna [/U]try .5mg adex once a week maybe after wed shot. GUess I need to find local blood place and do my own labs since I lost my doctor....



Hcg mimics lh hormone in your body and tells your boys to produce their own test again. Also keeps them from shrinking, drawing up and turning into little balls of collagen (learned that from gd ). Also supposed to be a mental feeling of well being too. IF memory serves, but I'm not quite as educated as the rest of the guys that frequent this section!

[Vettester]

why do you guys take hcg? is it just to keep size in the testes?

For me the size and natural production were factors. When I first started injections, the atrophy process started kicking in, and for some reason it caused a lot of pain just in my left testicle. Not sure why the left more so than the right, but that's what happened ... HCG alleviates that issue 100%. Actually, my left testicle is a good gauge to let me know when the HCG is getting weak, or if I've missed some HCG shots during a heavy travel schedule. If the HCG gets around the 50 day mark, the pain slowly starts creeping in ... Time to mix up the new stuff.

Lastly, the comparison of sex while on HCG is night and day!!! Without it, the climax is a one squirt wonder. On it, 5,6,7 ... Better than anything before! Who can say no to that?

[JD250]

The latest from Crisler concerning HCG ............


AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO



In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate , the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels , commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.








Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and HYPERLINK "http://www.AllThingsMale.com" www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.


Dr. John Crisler may be reached at:

HYPERLINK "mailto[email protected]" [email protected]

[OutLaw8.5]

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition


THAt right there is why I keep asking if you guys really think my E2 is low after taking 200mg ed hcg along with 40mg test twice a week. ANd only .5mg 2xweek adex. I figured the hcg was making some decent extra test and some probably converting...

I know I know. Blood the only way to tell

What day do you guys thing optimal for drawing blood if test taken Sunday morning and wed night?

[OutLaw8.5]

For me the size and natural production were factors. When I first started injections, the atrophy process started kicking in, and for some reason it caused a lot of pain just in my left testicle. Not sure why the left more so than the right, but that's what happened ... HCG alleviates that issue 100%. Actually, my left testicle is a good gauge to let me know when the HCG is getting weak, or if I've missed some HCG shots during a heavy travel schedule. If the HCG gets around the 50 day mark, the pain slowly starts creeping in ... Time to mix up the new stuff.

Lastly, the comparison of sex while on HCG is night and day!!! Without it, the climax is a one squirt wonder. On it, 5,6,7 ... Better than anything before! Who can say no to that?

THat last part in itself worth it's weight in gold! NIce volume increase as well!

[dec11]

For me the size and natural production were factors. When I first started injections, the atrophy process started kicking in, and for some reason it caused a lot of pain just in my left testicle. Not sure why the left more so than the right, but that's what happened ... HCG alleviates that issue 100%. Actually, my left testicle is a good gauge to let me know when the HCG is getting weak, or if I've missed some HCG shots during a heavy travel schedule. If the HCG gets around the 50 day mark, the pain slowly starts creeping in ... Time to mix up the new stuff.

Lastly, the comparison of sex while on HCG is night and day!!! Without it, the climax is a one squirt wonder. On it, 5,6,7 ... Better than anything before! Who can say no to that?

mine have been raisins for 2yrs now lol. i might enquire about it also on my trt appoint next month. i have used hcg before on cycles, just wondered what its purpose was for trt patients.

[swllce]

I follow the crisler protocol 250 iu hcg 2x week.For me it is the most important addition to my trt .
Without it sex drive ,well being,load size is cut in half.
I take mine on day before Test C shot and on the day of my test c shot,so i only have to pin 2 days aweek instead of 3 like with the crisler protocol.
Anything over 500iu a week is a waste of good hcg.My 2cents

[JD250]

Outlaw, HCG is short lived in your system, drop it for a week or so and see if your condition improves.

[ecdysone]

so i only have to pin 2 days aweek instead of 3 like with the crisler protocol.

If I understand the Dr. John (although do not agree with it), isn't he saying 2x per week? (test 1X per week?)

[OutLaw8.5]

^^^^ten four^^^^^

[dfwo]

THat last part in itself worth it's weight in gold! NIce volume increase as well!

wow, I've never heard that before.

[Vettester]

wow, I've never heard that before.

It's a fact ... At least for me, and I'm just a typical secondary guy with a healthy sack!

[OutLaw8.5]

If I understand the Dr. John (although do not agree with it), isn't he saying 2x per week? (test 1X per week?)

Care to elaborate? Always like to view things from the other side of the fence

[steroid.com 1]

Care to elaborate? Always like to view things from the other side of the fence

Crisler is looking at things from both sides of the fence.

One: How can I keep a man on a weekly protocol that he will benefit from and stick with and that is not complicated considering life style. Thus, hCG two and one day before Test injection followed by AI...simple.

Two: The best protocols are where we can mimic our body's own rhythms. If a man was willing to take small doses of Test, hCG and AI everyday it would be ideal! But in the real world (for most, not all) it's just impractical. So the compromise is Crisler's protocol which seems to stick with a lot of men.

For diligent guys like me, I can go more granular and almost go day to day.

Need to think of the masses when you are a Physician.

[ecdysone]

Although I agree with what gd said, I was just thinking in terms of the hormones:

Crisler's idea is to avoid "over peaking" the T levels by timing the HCG better.

First, I'm not convinced this is necessarily bad - the sublingual studies show T peaks over 2000 ng/dL with good effects.

Second, the half-life of HCG is something around 30-48 hours depending on who you believe (the studies are all over the place) so there's no need to space the injections so closely together.

Not that I advocate high doses of HCG, but his claim that it causes "Leydig cell desentization to LH" is not true.

Obviously, he is the experienced Dr. and I might know jack, but I think there's room for other opinions.

[steroid.com 1]

I guess the point is there are only so many receptors and one can only uptake a given amount. So at some point over dosing does nothing as the body can only manage so much.

I've never seen anything that stated high levels of hCG can cause down regulation of Leydig cells or "desensitization" either.

My belief: Smaller doses more frequently.

[Vettester]

I've never seen anything that stated high levels of hCG can cause down regulation of Leydig cells or "desensitization" either.

Neither have I, GD. I am still waiting to read a post from just one (1) member who got desensitized from too much HCG . IMO (and it's just that, an opinion), it just becomes a point where doing too much HCG just becomes redundant. However, I would never use that viewpoint as a challenge for anyone to put it to the test. Just simply saying ...

[ecdysone]

I've read a couple of studies that clearly stated high doses of HCG do not cause desensitization. If I can wade though my ever-growing accumulation of test studies, I'll post
the links.

The study I would love to see is one where they compare 500IU per week to say 5000IU/week. I've read where HCG also stimulates bone metabolism but I don't believe
that is simply due to increased E2 production, but instead another "good side effect."

Somewhat OT, but I predict we will talking more about HMG and less about HCG in a couple of years or so...

[Vettester]

Somewhat OT, but I predict we will talking more about HMG and less about HCG in a couple of years or so...

I agree!!! I think it's a bit of a pricey venture right now, but it very well could be the wave of the future, especially for those seeking more fertility benefits.

[swllce]

Yes he says to pin hcg 2 days before and on the day before your testosterone shot.That means poking yourself on 3 days of the week.
I changed it so i won't have to run to the medicine cabinet all the time.Works for me.

If I understand the Dr. John (although do not agree with it), isn't he saying 2x per week? (test 1X per week?)