HRT update w/ new labs -- not so great

**calisun** · 12-20-2011, 01:41 PM

Age: 22
Stats: 5'10 206 ~12% bodyfat, powerlifting/bodybuilding and dieting for 4 years seriously, never taken any steroids or PH's in my life until HRT began in June.
Previous tests: have been cleared of tumors, disorders, diseases etc.

I was prescribed HCG @ 500iu/3x week in June after a low testosterone result. Using the protocol, my test shot up from 360 to 1060 (280-1100 scale). E2 also shot up and i noticed i was more emotional and developed some mild tissue under the nipple (thanks doc

) . Different doc gave me Arimidex . I seem to be sensitive to arimidex.... 0.25mg of Arimidex once per week felt like too much as my E2 levels tanked from 79 to 12.

Few months later he dropped the dose to 300iu per HCG shot 2-3 times a week, and my test dropped back down into the 400s. My doc then prescribed test cyp in addition to the hcg (weird). I read Dr. Crissler's site and went with this protocol which I'm still using:

Sunday - no shot
Monday - no shot
Tuesday - 250iu HCG
Wednesday - 250iu HCG
Thursday - 50mg test cyp injected sub-q in the upper glute region via insulin syringe (doc wanted me to start with 50)
Friday - no shot
Saturday - no shot

0.25mg of arimidex every 14 days.

After 6-8 weeks on this protocol here is my lab work (was drawn on a Friday)

TESTOSTERONE TOTAL: 465 (250-1100ng/DL)
TESTOSTERONE FREE: 64.2 (46.0-224.0 pg/mL)
TESTO, BIOAVAILABLE: 129.1 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG: 32 (10-50 nmol/L)
ALBUMIN, SERUM: 4.4 (3.6-5.1 g/dL)

ESTRADIOL, ULTRA-SENSITIVE: 29 (< OR = 29 pg/mL)

Main difference since my test was in the 1000's months ago: erection quality diminished, sense of well being is good--but not great; easily stressed out it seems, sex drive not as high, strength slightly lower. I just don't feel as good as I did when it was over 1000.

I really would like to maximize my testosterone potential here since my main sport/hobby is centered around lifting and building as much muscle/strength as I possibly can. Any ideas on what I should change? My doc (who is not very experienced with HRT and is open to my own ideas) suggested trying 60mg of test cyp, but a 10mg bump doesn't seem like it would do anything (especially when I see 100mg seems to be the norm..although my doc warns against total shutdown at that dose)...am I right or wrong in this thinking?

**steroid.com 1** · 12-20-2011, 02:00 PM

If I understand your post correctly you went from 360 to 1060 just on 1500 iu of hCG per week? As a mono therapy that would have been nothing short of an outstanding result and I wouldn't have changed a thing other then E2 management.

My $0.02:

50 mg of Test Cyp weekly is a very low dose. Consider that 70% of that will make it into your bloodstream and you can see it's small (like 35 mg).

Typical starting dose is 100 mg of Test per week. You need to put more in to move the needle.

Your E2 is fine now but if you increase to 100 then I suggest .25 mg of your AI every 7 days (looks like you're an over-responder...happens sometimes).

Keep hCG as is.

Crisler's protocol above is fine.

**calisun** · 12-20-2011, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

If I understand your post correctly you went from 360 to 1060 just on 1500 iu of hCG per week? As a mono therapy that would have been nothing short of an outstanding result and I wouldn't have changed a thing other then E2 management.

My $0.02:

50 mg of Test Cyp weekly is a very low dose. Consider that 70% of that will make it into your bloodstream and you can see it's small (like 35 mg).

Typical starting dose is 100 mg of Test per week. You need to put more in to move the needle.

Your E2 is fine now but if you increase to 100 then I suggest .25 mg of your AI every 7 days (looks like you're an over-responder...happens sometimes).

Keep hCG as is.

Crisler's protocol above is fine.

Yeah I really don't know why my doc had me add test cyp instead of keeping the protocol as is with 1500iu of hcg per week (didnt realize this until later). Would it still be an option to run 500iu/3x per week at this point, or since I started the cyp should I just continue using it (and at the doses you recommend)? Is there any truth to becoming desensitized to hcg with a dose that high?

**chi** · 12-20-2011, 02:27 PM

22 206 lbs and 12% body fat with no use ever of any pro hormones or steroids . So what prompted the low test then?

**steroid.com 1** · 12-20-2011, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by calisun

Yeah I really don't know why my doc had me add test cyp instead of keeping the protocol as is with 1500iu of hcg per week (didnt realize this until later). Would it still be an option to run 500iu/3x per week at this point, or since I started the cyp should I just continue using it (and at the doses you recommend)? Is there any truth to becoming desensitized to hcg with a dose that high?

Unfortunately now it's not a great option to go back to mono hCG ; since you added exogenous Testosterone you are in HPTA suppression and would need to restart which is not an easy thing to do; but in your case since you been on hCG from the start it may be a possibility...better to just increase Test dosage now IMO.

I've never seen any study that indicates that large doses of hCG can desensitize lydeg cells...it's just a speculation. Your dosage of 250 iu twice a week is just enough to keep the boys functioning. I do 250 iu EOD to put things in perspective.

Go up to 100 mg of Test and increases your AI and test in 6 weeks...bet you will feel and see a big difference.

**calisun** · 12-20-2011, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by chi

22 206 lbs and 12% body fat with no use ever of any pro hormones or steroids. So what prompted the low test then?

I battled chronic illness for 3 years and although I'm better now (thank God), that may have caused something to jack up my hormone levels in the long term. I had a lot of digestive, endocrine, detox, and neural issues. It was a mess.

Originally Posted by gdevine

Unfortunately now it's not a great option to go back to mono hCG ; since you added exogenous Testosterone you are in HPTA suppression and would need to restart which is not an easy thing to do; but in your case since you been on hCG from the start it may be a possibility...better to just increase Test dosage now IMO.

I've never seen any study that indicates that large doses of hCG can desensitize lydeg cells...it's just a speculation. Your dosage of 250 iu twice a week is just enough to keep the boys functioning. I do 250 iu EOD to put things in perspective.

Go up to 100 mg of Test and increases your AI and test in 6 weeks...bet you will feel and see a big difference.

Alright will do. Your help is greatly appreciated.

**calisun** · 12-20-2011, 05:51 PM

Oh btw, should I stick with the injection plan layout and shoot 100mg on Thursday or split the shots up, 50mg twice a week?

**steroid.com 1** · 12-20-2011, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by calisun

Oh btw, should I stick with the injection plan layout and shoot 100mg on Thursday or split the shots up, 50mg twice a week?

I like splitting it; better E2 control and smoother levels.

Your choice...

**calisun** · 12-20-2011, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

I like splitting it; better E2 control and smoother levels.

Your choice...

I like the splitting idea. Any amount of time I should wait between shots? Or would Tues/Thurs be alright?

**steroid.com 1** · 12-20-2011, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by calisun

I like the splitting idea. Any amount of time I should wait between shots? Or would Tues/Thurs be alright?

I go Monday morning and Thursday night. Follow up with your AI 24 hours from injection.

You could do your 250 iu hCG the day before each test injection.

Other than Saturday you got something to do each day.

Now I like that a lot

**JD250** · 12-20-2011, 08:38 PM

GD.....I'm looking at his test results and notice the e2 says ULTRA sensitive and gives a range of 29 or less......what gives?

**steroid.com 1** · 12-20-2011, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by JD250

GD.....I'm looking at his test results and notice the e2 says ULTRA sensitive and gives a range of 29 or less......what gives?

ESTRADIOL, ULTRA-SENSITIVE: 29 (< OR = 29 pg/mL)

Yea, I saw that but really didn't have the time to elaborate.

Point being, with assay measuring E2 in men that is "sensitive" (different labs have different terms for "sensitive") it's still the same; ultra sensitive in one lab is the same as just as sensitive in another...six of one half dozen of the other...

The OP is at 29 pg/ml on a sensitive assay which is damn near ideal for a man. Excellent would be <25 pg/ml. And given blood work is always a "snap shot" he's looking real good on this front.

**gearbox** · 12-21-2011, 12:54 AM

gdevine- thanks for the posts...this is how a thread should be..learned lots..

**JD250** · 12-21-2011, 01:30 AM

Thanks GD, I suspected as much but had never seen the range posted like that before.

Calisun....We appreciate you stating all your stats, bloodwork, protocols (past and present), goals and concerns, That's the proper way to start a thread in order to receive useful answers.

**calisun** · 12-21-2011, 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by gearbox

gdevine- thanks for the posts...this is how a thread should be..learned lots..

Agreed! Great posts by gdevine.

Originally Posted by JD250

Thanks GD, I suspected as much but had never seen the range posted like that before.

Calisun....We appreciate you stating all your stats, bloodwork, protocols (past and present), goals and concerns, That's the proper way to start a thread in order to receive useful answers.

No problem. One thing I keep in mind when posting is I know others will read this thread when searching around for answers, and one thing I hate is coming across a thread that could possibly be useful, but instead has vague information and incomplete background. I hope this thread helps someone else just as much as it has me thus far.

While I'm at it, I'll throw out another question relating to HRT if someone doesn't mind answering...

I've heard of people cycling while on HRT, and have contemplated the idea for myself in the future when I plateau eventually..and I've been warned about test production shutting down permanently and the risks that accompany higher doses of test for bodybuilding purposes.However, since I'm already on HRT and my own test production seems to be pretty lackluster as it is, would a cycle of say ~300-500mg of test for 10-12 weeks followed by continuing HRT really be that harmful? In my own simplistic and limited thinking on the subject, my logic (or lack thereof) seems to simply think "well, the boys aren't doing their job fully anyway, go for it some day in the future and see what happens!" (I actually never even considered cycling until I began HRT and came up with this rationale)...but I know there is more to it than that and would appreciate some experienced insight to dismiss or affirm my views.

**JD250** · 12-21-2011, 04:58 PM

That's one of the nice things about TRT if you are someone who plans on cycling you can just go back to a normal TRT routine without PCT, that's not withstanding any sides from compounds like a 19-nor, you will still need to address those accordingly with cabor or prami.

As far as it being harmful, nobody can say for sure how your body will react or what issues you may already have so it would be slippery ground for us to say that there is no risk in cycling. But you are on a forum with tons of info about cycling!