TRT its all going bad. I read this would happen. What to do next?

[innerg]

Hi-
First I want to say glad to have the info from you all. I read that this WOULD happen. But need to know what to do from here.

Been taking 200mgs of test a week for about 2 months now. was feeling like a champ the first month and a half. the last 2 weeks not so good at all. Today REALLY bad.

This is the timeline.

-About 2 weeks ago the boys started to shrink Smaller and smaller and some pain. I look like a 4 year old down there.

- yesterday and today The Joints are hurting and tight and stiff today really bad.

- I'm tired and just want to sleep. and it has been hard to wake up in the mornings.
- Today I feel emotional like I should cry LOL WTF!!!!


This has all happened in the last 2 days. (took my shot Monday morning) like I said the first 6 weeks have been great. last 2 weeks slowly worse.


so is this because there is no HCG ? do I need a AI?

Thanks

[Mr Bill]

You have to get blood work to see whats going on.

[JohnnyVegas]

Agree about blood work.

You should know what your Test levels are when taking 200mg/week. More importantly, you want to know what your E2 (estrogen) is so you can discuss the need for an AI with your doc.

You will definitely want HCG if you have testicular atrophy.

[innerg]

^ ya I for sure will get Blood Work. that was a given. just want to hear from some of you old dogs Thanks Vegas.

with a AI what would/should a doc put me on? like what type or what is the name?

[steroid.com 1]

You're in HPTA supression so your testicles are shut down and beginning to atrophy. Did your Physician discuss with you the use of hCG to prevent this from happening? Just so you know, it won't get better...only worse.

Looks like E2 has crept up and you're presenting neg sides. Did your Physician discuss with you aromatization and how an inhibitor like Anastrozol can prevent that from happening.

Hate to say it but your post is rather classic.

The good news; it can be corrected.

[HRTstudent]

Get an estradiol sensitive test.

You may be on too large a dose of T (200mg per week is generally the upper limit in many practices).

The AI of choice is anastrozole, brand name Arimidex . It's typically and carefully dosed at .25 to .5mg twice per week. The use of an AI can be delicate. You don't want to crash your estradiol because it is very important for general health and well being.

Finally, an AI would only be appropriate if your estradiol was actually significantly elevated/above normal.

[JD250]

^^^ true, blood work, then if it shows high e2 (which it more than likely will) start an AI but you will need more BW and adjust the dose until you get it right, the dose will be specific to you and your results.

[steroid.com 1]

Get an estradiol sensitive test.

You may be on too large a dose of T (200mg per week is generally the upper limit in many practices).

The AI of choice is anastrozole, brand name Arimidex . It's typically and carefully dosed at .25 to .5mg twice per week. The use of an AI can be delicate. You don't want to crash your estradiol because it is very important for general health and well being.

Finally, an AI would only be appropriate if your estradiol was actually significantly elevated/above normal.

Based on what and what reference?

I think your point is based on a starting point of 100 mg of Test per week...correct...not his 200 mg per week?

[zaggahamma]

Based on what and what reference?

I think your point is based on a starting point of 100 mg of Test per week...correct...not his 200 mg per week?

you would recommend a higher dose of arimidex to start if his e2 was say elevated from 20-30 to 55-80? higher than .5mg X2w? ng/ml i'm talkin btw..and yes based on 200mg of test being injected weekly

[steroid.com 1]

you would recommend a higher dose of arimidex to start if his e2 was say elevated from 20-30 to 55-80? higher than .5mg X2w? ng/ml i'm talkin btw..and yes based on 200mg of test being injected weekly

I don't have a clue J. He's presenting sides of elevated E2 but until BW is done and an assessment made I don't know what to recommend.

Who knows where he's at right now?

[zaggahamma]

I don't have a clue J. He's presenting sides of elevated E2 but until BW is done and an assessment made I don't know what to recommend.

Who knows where he's at right now?

yeh i know bloodwork first ...i was putting out there the scenario if he went from say 25 to 75 ..kind of like i did when starting trt..on 200mg of test ...would you recommend more than .5mg of arimidex twice a week to start?
given wut we know about the strength of the compound...i'm thinking that its better to ease it down rather than go past and crash it low....but yes i've had that train of thought to maybe take 1mg twice a week for the first week then maybe taper that dose down to try to reverse symptoms quicker.....its delicate...i guess thats why taking a whopping 200mg test dose as a beginning trt dose is a big no no if your trying to dial in

[yannick35]

Been there done that another idiot moron medical doctor that either went with your size or just plain did not know what he was doing. 200MG is way to high for a TRT protocol.

For the first 3 weeks i was flying man i felt like superman, i was like my medical doctor is a genius. After the third week everything went crashing down. The guys on the board warned me about AI, and high dosage.

I gained a lot of fat and water, i felt really bad, out of energy and more. I since got an AI, lowered my T to 100mg per week and i feel a lot better. I really hope that theses so called medical doctor will get up to date with TRT because so far they know nothing. Either they give you minimal dosage or they give you way to much.

[flatscat]

First - breathe bro - it's gonna be aight!

IMO, the first round of b/w should be around 5-6 weeks. If you have not called your physician to get it done, I would recommend doing so.

If you are not supplementing with zinc you might do a little research on it and possible effects on e2 and dosage in the meantime.

We are all here to help - keep us posted and don't hesitate to ask any question.

Flats

[zaggahamma]

First - breathe bro - it's gonna be aight!

IMO, the first round of b/w should be around 5-6 weeks. If you have not called your physician to get it done, I would recommend doing so.

If you are not supplementing with zinc you might do a little research on it and possible effects on e2 and dosage in the meantime.

We are all here to help - keep us posted and don't hesitate to ask any question.

Flats

u talkin to the op not yannick right

[flatscat]

you are correct sir lmao

[steroid.com 1]

yeh i know bloodwork first ...i was putting out there the scenario if he went from say 25 to 75 ..kind of like i did when starting trt..on 200mg of test ...would you recommend more than .5mg of arimidex twice a week to start?
given wut we know about the strength of the compound...i'm thinking that its better to ease it down rather than go past and crash it low....but yes i've had that train of thought to maybe take 1mg twice a week for the first week then maybe taper that dose down to try to reverse symptoms quicker.....its delicate...i guess thats why taking a whopping 200mg test dose as a beginning trt dose is a big no no if your trying to dial in

Been traveling for business yet again (feel like vette) so I been off the board for a bit so response is slower than usual...

See bold J...like Kel and some others here the past 6 months or so I am leaning towards less AI than what we normally see in a start-up protocol...i.e., 100 mg Test to 1 mg of AI.

As some of you know I cut back to just .5 mg of anastrozole to 120 mg of Test C weekly and can say I feel slightly better but erection quality has increased as well as libido.

Can some of this be associated with my splitting of my total weekly dosage of 120 mg into two 60 mg...I think a good argument can be made.

But let me say this before Flats does; other then subjective assesment there are no studies to really support this statement.

But experience here for some of us goes a long way.

J, you're recommendation to ease down rather than crash E2 is 100% on the mark my friend!

[zaggahamma]

Yes g
I do know u opened your mind to a lil e2 variance than previously and i like that..
And about the recent change in dose and frequency..and not knowing where to give credit for the improved "health" ....there's always that theory that mixing it up is a good thing...after all trt is kind of tricking the bod....

[flatscat]

Lol gd. It's all good.

Look how far you have come anyway... Backing off the adex, and realizing that some fluctuation in serum levels is not always a bad thing.

I have never said twice a week or sub q is a bad thing. Always is an individual choice to try different things.

[DaRoq]

Has there been any cases where people have successfully titrated their testosterone dose down to the point where testosterone levels are good, e2 is manageable without an AI, and testicular atrophy is insignificant?

[JD250]

^^^^^ That's the idea behind some of these conversations about splitting doses and spreading them out evenly over more days, much like the A-gel guys who don't need an AI......it's the "Holy Grail" If I can take half as much test and little to no AI and have BW in good range and feel great and the only cost is a little inconvenience, sign me up right now!

I believe GD is an example as are others here that there is a personal balance that can be achieved with time, education and effort.

[JD250]

And another thing.....Flats and GD, ecdysone, HRT, JPK and a few others I'm forgetting, sometimes it seems like you guys disagree and go back and forth a little....keep up the good work!!! No joke, something good always comes out of these discussions, I'm always learning something new from you guys. Thanks

[bass]

Been traveling for business yet again (feel like vette) so I been off the board for a bit so response is slower than usual...

See bold J...like Kel and some others here the past 6 months or so I am leaning towards less AI than what we normally see in a start-up protocol...i.e., 100 mg Test to 1 mg of AI.

As some of you know I cut back to just .5 mg of anastrozole to 120 mg of Test C weekly and can say I feel slightly better but erection quality has increased as well as libido.

Can some of this be associated with my splitting of my total weekly dosage of 120 mg into two 60 mg...I think a good argument can be made.

But let me say this before Flats does; other then subjective assesment there are no studies to really support this statement.

But experience here for some of us goes a long way.

J, you're recommendation to ease down rather than crash E2 is 100% on the mark my friend!

this is why i have tons of respect for you GD, some times common sense and personal experience can go far beyond studies. studies and research is a one size fits all but not based on an individual! not sure if i made sense, but i guess what i like to point out is you've been my guide in TRT and every time i change it based on your input its been an improvement, so far! now i been off of AI from about 2 weeks doing eod test/hcg , so far so good.

OP, i agree with the guys, it look like your have elevated e2 and perhaps its time to donate blood!

[ecdysone]

Has there been any cases where people have successfully titrated their testosterone dose down to the point where testosterone levels are good, e2 is manageable without an AI, and testicular atrophy is insignificant?

Probably not since the basics of why you are on TRT generally can't be re-acquired by the body.

However, there is a school of thought (and one well-known Doc who supports this) to wean yourself off TRT once a year and give your body a breathing period to readjust. Like J said above, some planned changes in this process are probably good thing.

[kelkel]

Ecd are your basically referring to the philosophy of receptor regulation? Does this doc suggest PCT during this off period? In my shoes with a pit tumor I don't see the benefit to going without. Your thoughts?

[ecdysone]

The main proponent of taking an annual breather is Dr. Scally and he has developed a rather lengthy PCT protocol using higher doses of HCG , and clomid + Nolva that lasts about 2 months. The idea is to re-balance the HPTA by essentially doing a restart.

I haven't really considered it, but suspect it would only work with guys whose natty test levels are close to low end normal.

Would be interesting to see if being on test for awhile in anyway regenerates testicular tissue or receptors since it's the inter-testicular test levels (which are easily 10X higher) where all the real biochemistry occurs.

But, I don't know if I'm up to being a lab rat any more than can be avoided.

[kelkel]

Ok. Similar in theory to what a lot of experienced bodybuilders do. Although their idea is basically just giving receptors a break from higher doses with a very brief two week pct then right back on cycle again.

Thanks ecd! No lab rat here either....

[zaggahamma]

Has there been any cases where people have successfully titrated their testosterone dose down to the point where testosterone levels are good, e2 is manageable without an AI, and testicular atrophy is insignificant?

If my memory serves me I remember a guy posting about pyramiding up and down in test range and controlling e2 but can't remember if atrophy of concern something like 200mg down to 100mg weekly one shot....in like 25mg increments