Bass's blood work based on SQ injection with no AI

[bass]

Well, better than I thought and yes my guess regarding crashing E2 was correct! but I was wrong to think my e2 went up after 3 weeks not taking AI, made a mistake taking 0.5 mgs AI 3 days in a raw one week before blood work and its way down, this indicated to me that my e2 was probably fine. also like the results on vitamin D, been taking 10,000 iu once a day for the last three months or so, it was at the bottom when I started. I was disappointed that he didn’t do lipid, kidney and liver function!

Here is my protocol history,
Started SQ twice a week @ 50mgs then shortly after that I went to 60 mgs twice a week with 0.5 mgs AI after every shot.
Around February 20th, 2012 (about 4-5 weeks ago) switched to eod test/hCG @ 35mgs test and 250 iu hCG, no AI.
Three weeks after that I though my e2 went up so I took 0.5 mg AI 3 days in a raw, then stopped completely, a week later I did blood work and here it is,

V. D, 25 = 94.7 ng/ml, Range 30-100

E2 (not ultra sensitive)
9 ng/ml, Range 7.6-42.6 was for about a month without AI then took 0.5 mg three days in a raw then 3 days after that did the blood work. I believe my E2 was in good range without AI.

DHT
42 ng/dl, Range 30-85

Free T,
20.9 pg/ml, Range 7.2-24

Total T
660 ng/ml, Range 248-1197

T4
6.7 ug/dl, Range 4.5-12

TSH
3.45 uIU/ml, Range 0.450-4.500

% Free PSA
35%, I don’t know what the following chart is?!!!
% Free PSA 50-64 yr 65-75 yr
0-10% 56% 55%
10.01-15% 24% 35%
15.01-20% 17% 23%
20.01-25% 10% 20%
>25% 5% 9%

PSA
0.8 ng/ml, Range 0.0-4.0---gone up slightly from last test, last test was 0.7, it seems to go up by 0.1 every time I test for it.

PSA Free
0.28 ng/ml, Range N/A

Your thoughts?

[Brohim]

Why did you use an AI if the purpose of the test was to see how it worked with no AI. You crushed your E2 a week before the test with 1.5mg of Liquidex.

Your labs look good. I thought you did IM injections before? You alway's did SQ?

[bass]

i took AI because i was getting itchy around the nipples and felt bloated, I thought my e2 went up, but obviously i was wrong! yes i started IM then switched to SQ on the dates noted above.

[steroid.com 1]

V. D, 25 = 94.7 ng/ml, Range 30-100
Sweet!

E2 (not ultra sensitive)
9 ng/ml, Range 7.6-42.6 was for about a month without AI then took 0.5 mg three days in a raw then 3 days after that did the blood work. I believe my E2 was in good range without AI.
Your assessment on the E2 situation is correct. You crushed it with .5mg 3 days in a row and you were probably in a good range prior to that.

DHT
42 ng/dl, Range 30-85
Nice; mid range seems to be the sweet spot with DHT.

Free T,
20.9 pg/ml, Range 7.2-24
Real nice; Free T is more important than Total T at this point as you know bass.

Total T
660 ng/ml, Range 248-1197
You'd think this be a bit higher. Did you get SHBG and Albumin?

T4
6.7 ug/dl, Range 4.5-12
Hmmm...this is low...better at the upper range.

TSH
3.45 uIU/ml, Range 0.450-4.500
This is high bass and tied to the low T4 output suggests Hypothyroidism. Should be in the 1's. Your Thyroid is working very hard and there are medical conditions you don't want with Hypothyroidism.

% Free PSA
35%, I don’t know what the following chart is?!!!
% Free PSA 50-64 yr 65-75 yr
0-10% 56% 55%
10.01-15% 24% 35%
15.01-20% 17% 23%
20.01-25% 10% 20%
>25% 5% 9%

PSA
0.8 ng/ml, Range 0.0-4.0---gone up slightly from last test, last test was 0.7, it seems to go up by 0.1 every time I test for it.
Fine.

PSA Free
0.28 ng/ml, Range N/A

Your thoughts?

Above in bold. Look into your Thyroid bass. Many of the same shitty neg sides of Low Testosterone are the same for Hypothyroidism.

You should be taking Iodine in the form of Kelp or Lugols. Also, add in Iodized Salt to your diet along with 200mcg of Selenium each day as these will help your Thyroid...but you still need to talk to your MD.

[GFA]

Couldn't the HCG @ 250 iu EOD be enough to raise your test to 600ish?

I would think the only way we can tell if test subQ is effective is to only take test and not HCG. HCG can alter the test results.

I remember when I did HCG in the past 500 iu a day, M-F my test shot up to 900ish. This was HCG monotherapy.

[bass]

Above in bold. Look into your Thyroid bass. Many of the same shitty neg sides of Low Testosterone are the same for Hypothyroidism.

You should be taking Iodine in the form of Kelp or Lugols. Also, add in Iodized Salt to your diet along with 200mcg of Selenium each day as these will help your Thyroid...but you still need to talk to your MD.

thanks for the response G, and the rest. SHBG the last two times showed really low, border line, so i am assuming probably no change, but will check for it next time. as usual my doc said everything looks great! so as far as thyroid treatment is probably not on his mind. I'll look into the supplements. i expected my Total T to be higher, but at 120 mgs ew is not bad.

GFA, i am at the end of my hCG vial and had it for a while, it could be loosing it's potency thus not making an impact on test levels.

[HRTstudent]

The only thing that stood out to me was it seems like your TSH is high.

Here is a useful post from Dr Mariano:

My current rule of thumb as a target for thyroid hormone:

1. Raise Total T4 to between 8-12 ug/dL (most important)
2. Free T3 between 330 to 420 pg/dL (multiple factors determine free T3, not just thyroid dosing).
3. TSH < 1.0

Using Total T4 for Levothyroxine dosing is like using Total Testosterone to determine testosterone dosing. Just as one doesn't use LH to determine testosterone dosing, one doesn't necessarily need to use TSH to determine thyroid hormone dosing.

Using TSH is complicated in that one assumes a well-functioning thyroid transporter (which depends on adequate ATP production - and thus a well-functioning citric acid cycle) to transport thyroid hormone across the blood brain barrier so that it can reach the neurons in the hypothalamus and to transport thyroid hormone through the cell membrane so it can reach its nuclear receptors. It also assumes the neurons of the hypothalamus and pituitary are working well - and are not subject to aging and other metabolic problems - which is not true if one has other major illnesses such as diabetes and heart disease.

Adequate nutrition is necessary to optimize metabolism so that thyroid hormone can work. For example, without adequate iron and vitamin A and other vitamins and minerals, thyroid hormone has difficulty functioning. Without adequate cellular iron, for example, thyroid hormone may not even pass through the cell membrane to reach its receptors. Nutrition has to be optimized to optimize thyroid function.

Interestingly, if the rest of the system is optimized (e.g. psychological, psychiatric, neurologic, neuroendocrine, psychoimmunologic, metabolic, nutritional) , generally, the usual dose for Levothyroxine ends up being 100 to 200 mcg a day.

Problems in optimizing thyroid occur when there are problems in the rest of the system. For example, excessive immune system activity predisposes a person to increase sympathetic nervous system activity, palpitations, suppressed adrenal function on treatment with thyroid hormone.

[zaggahamma]

subscribed following the thyroid issue

suprised you discounted it to your doc being ok with it

i didnt see you speak of symptoms/gains the last few weeks /months

[kelkel]

Are you going to continue this protocol Bass? Glad you added Vit D. I just got a script for it and will be starting Drisdol as I came back low like everyone else.

[bass]

subscribed following the thyroid issue

suprised you discounted it to your doc being ok with it

i didnt see you speak of symptoms/gains the last few weeks /months

unfortunately my doc is backing away from prescribing test, i guess he's too scared. as for the symptoms, i been feeling better, i can't tell if i am gaining, been weighing the same and fat lose is really slow! been drinking up to 4 cups of hot tea every day, not sure if the caffeine is effecting my TSH!

Are you going to continue this protocol Bass? Glad you added Vit D. I just got a script for it and will be starting Drisdol as I came back low like everyone else.

yes i will continue it and do blasts once in a while, but not anytime soon! i am happy the little capsule of vit. D is really doing its job.

[GFA]

When you do a blast do you change anything besides the amount of AI and Test per week? I'm guessing you dont have to bother with a PCT since you are on HRT anyway right? Just go back down to normal levels after a blast?

[bass]

The only thing that stood out to me was it seems like your TSH is high.

Here is a useful post from Dr Mariano:

My current rule of thumb as a target for thyroid hormone:

1. Raise Total T4 to between 8-12 ug/dL (most important)
2. Free T3 between 330 to 420 pg/dL (multiple factors determine free T3, not just thyroid dosing).
3. TSH < 1.0

Using Total T4 for Levothyroxine dosing is like using Total Testosterone to determine testosterone dosing. Just as one doesn't use LH to determine testosterone dosing, one doesn't necessarily need to use TSH to determine thyroid hormone dosing.

Using TSH is complicated in that one assumes a well-functioning thyroid transporter (which depends on adequate ATP production - and thus a well-functioning citric acid cycle) to transport thyroid hormone across the blood brain barrier so that it can reach the neurons in the hypothalamus and to transport thyroid hormone through the cell membrane so it can reach its nuclear receptors. It also assumes the neurons of the hypothalamus and pituitary are working well - and are not subject to aging and other metabolic problems - which is not true if one has other major illnesses such as diabetes and heart disease.

Adequate nutrition is necessary to optimize metabolism so that thyroid hormone can work. For example, without adequate iron and vitamin A and other vitamins and minerals, thyroid hormone has difficulty functioning. Without adequate cellular iron, for example, thyroid hormone may not even pass through the cell membrane to reach its receptors. Nutrition has to be optimized to optimize thyroid function.

Interestingly, if the rest of the system is optimized (e.g. psychological, psychiatric, neurologic, neuroendocrine, psychoimmunologic, metabolic, nutritional) , generally, the usual dose for Levothyroxine ends up being 100 to 200 mcg a day.

Problems in optimizing thyroid occur when there are problems in the rest of the system. For example, excessive immune system activity predisposes a person to increase sympathetic nervous system activity, palpitations, suppressed adrenal function on treatment with thyroid hormone.

i am not up to date with thyroid, i guess its time to learn! but my TSH always been high even prior to TRT. so what does specifically high TSH indicate? my doc thinks everything is okay, so what should i tell him to be concerned about?

[bass]

When you do a blast do you change anything besides the amount of AI and Test per week? I'm guessing you dont have to bother with a PCT since you are on HRT anyway right? Just go back down to normal levels after a blast?

correct, my blast would probably consist of 300 mgs test and up the AI, but I'll stack it with deca if i can get it.

[GFA]

Thanks. Once I get my hormones normalized and fat levels down to sub 15% I might look into a short blast. I'm old, don't want anymore kids, bald, already on TRT so why not?

[HRTstudent]

Your doc is probably only concerned with obvious disease states and NOT OPTIMAL physical health.

That's to be expected from the regular doctor.

Chances are, if he doesn't see it as a problem now then he won't next year or after you talk to him or after you show him paper XYZ.

What would I do in your shoes? Start reading some of what the experts in the field say (mariano's forum has some pretty easy to read stuff and he is concerned with good health and not just bandaging disease that most doctors solely focus on). Thyroid can be effected a lot by your diet. There very well could be some small changes or a supplement you could add to improve thyroid function.

[doc w]

Well, better than I thought and yes my guess regarding crashing E2 was correct! but I was wrong to think my e2 went up after 3 weeks not taking AI, made a mistake taking 0.5 mgs AI 3 days in a raw one week before blood work and its way down, this indicated to me that my e2 was probably fine. also like the results on vitamin D, been taking 10,000 iu once a day for the last three months or so, it was at the bottom when I started. I was disappointed that he didn’t do lipid, kidney and liver function!

Here is my protocol history,
Started SQ twice a week @ 50mgs then shortly after that I went to 60 mgs twice a week with 0.5 mgs AI after every shot.
Around February 20th, 2012 (about 4-5 weeks ago) switched to eod test/hCG @ 35mgs test and 250 iu hCG, no AI.
Three weeks after that I though my e2 went up so I took 0.5 mg AI 3 days in a raw, then stopped completely, a week later I did blood work and here it is,

V. D, 25 = 94.7 ng/ml, Range 30-100

E2 (not ultra sensitive)
9 ng/ml, Range 7.6-42.6 was for about a month without AI then took 0.5 mg three days in a raw then 3 days after that did the blood work. I believe my E2 was in good range without AI.

DHT
42 ng/dl, Range 30-85

Free T,
20.9 pg/ml, Range 7.2-24

Total T
660 ng/ml, Range 248-1197

T4
6.7 ug/dl, Range 4.5-12

TSH
3.45 uIU/ml, Range 0.450-4.500

% Free PSA
35%, I don’t know what the following chart is?!!!
% Free PSA 50-64 yr 65-75 yr
0-10% 56% 55%
10.01-15% 24% 35%
15.01-20% 17% 23%
20.01-25% 10% 20%
>25% 5% 9%

PSA
0.8 ng/ml, Range 0.0-4.0---gone up slightly from last test, last test was 0.7, it seems to go up by 0.1 every time I test for it.

PSA Free
0.28 ng/ml, Range N/A

Your thoughts?

Just a quick note on free psa. It is a number used to determine if a biopsy should be done. It is normally above 25 percent, so yours is fine. When it is important is when u have a higher psa and a lower free psa then you have a higher risk for cancer and a biopsy may be indicated

[jamotech]

I also started taking ai again after crashing my e2, due to itchy nips only. I probably should have got nolva like Kel said, Its weird I felt itchy nips but still had some low e sypmtoms at the same time. I knew taking the ai would only make me feel worse, but I am also very paranoid about gyno! Nolva would have been the perfect solution for both of us Bass, and still is!

Are you taking prescription vit d or over the counter?

[doc w]

I also started taking ai again after crashing my e2, due to itchy nips only. I probably should have got nolva like Kel said, Its weird I felt itchy nips but still had some low e sypmtoms at the same time. I knew taking the ai would only make me feel worse, but I am also very paranoid about gyno! Nolva would have been the perfect solution for both of us Bass, and still is!

Are you taking prescription vit d or over the counter?

I am also paranoid about gyn symptoms having had previous gyno surgery, however one thiNg I have noticed us that when I shave my chest and let the hair grow out 4-5 mm it can simulate the same symptoms of gyno especially if u r wearing a shirt that catches the hair shaft. Just something to think about.

[jamotech]

I am also paranoid about gyn symptoms having had previous gyno surgery, however one thiNg I have noticed us that when I shave my chest and let the hair grow out 4-5 mm it can simulate the same symptoms of gyno especially if u r wearing a shirt that catches the hair shaft. Just something to think about.

Im glad you posted this, guess what I did before I noticed my nips itching! Combine that with dry weather, its a recipe for itchy nips. For me though, at the time it just seemed like they itched too deep to be hair, although I did wonder about the coincidence of it!

[bass]

I am also paranoid about gyn symptoms having had previous gyno surgery, however one thiNg I have noticed us that when I shave my chest and let the hair grow out 4-5 mm it can simulate the same symptoms of gyno especially if u r wearing a shirt that catches the hair shaft. Just something to think about.

man i too am glad you posted this, i did thin out the hair and was itching all over and got paranoid. thats probably what it was, just the hair pocking! and thanks for the Free PSA explanation.

[keep fightin]

Hey Bass! thanks for always taking the time to post your BW. thyroid? one more thing to keep track of.. were your IM T levels similar at same draw times compared to SQ? did you ever have any BW while not taking HCG ? I also would have thought your T levels might be higher, wonder about the bump we are supposed to get with HCG..

[bass]

Hey Bass! thanks for always taking the time to post your BW. thyroid? one more thing to keep track of.. were your IM T levels similar at same draw times compared to SQ? did you ever have any BW while not taking HCG? I also would have thought your T levels might be higher, wonder about the bump we are supposed to get with HCG..

when i was doing IM my test dose was once a week at 200 mgs, and my total T came at 1600 and my free more than double, no hCG back then. to be honest i am not too worried about my total T as long as my free is at the top range. i usually draw blood the same day or the day before my next injection. this time i did it the same day before my T injection.

[zaggahamma]

man i too am glad you posted this, i did thin out the hair and was itching all over and got paranoid. thats probably what it was, just the hair pocking! and thanks for the Free PSA explanation.

more reason for me to keep wearing my fur coat

[doc w]

On a side note there are some excellent home machines for permanent, semi-permanent hair removal. Google impulse light hair removal. Units are fairly cheap given the price of a Gillette fusion blade. I have a remington I-light that I got for Christmas and it does a good job.

[steroid.com 1]

Remember when we were kids going through puberty and our nipples would itch? I suspect that had to do with elevated natural testosterone levels .

I get itchy nipples a lot but my panels are all well within range. My TRT Doc told be it's natural and not to worry about it albeit a bit annoying.

Thanks for the info on laser hair removal Doc; need to look into this for sure!

[Hackamaniac]

more reason for me to keep wearing my fur coat

[Vettester]

Bass, thanks for posting. I'll keep an eye out for any updates you have with the thyroid.

I am going through a similar deal with the thyroid. Everything else is in check, but that. I'll be running more labs here soon to see how iodine has effected it. If not significant, my doctor and clinic are looking at putting me on something ... Presuming that would be Armour.

Good luck with it!

[bass]

thanks Vette! never taken anything for thyroid, can you guys guide me as to what supplement i should try first and how to dose it? i don't want to get too many things at once just want to try one thing at a time and see how it works.

[SEOINAGE]

Armour thyroid. No clue on dosing, but you can look up averages for it places, it will be highly individual though. Like test probably start you low and taper up, might suck till get it dialed in. I wouldn't take synthroid or other generics, cause it replaces t4 but no t3 in it leaving you to rely on conversion. Armour thyroid has both because it comes from animals.

[Hackamaniac]

Bass, I just restarted trt

So following closely

Two sub q shots so far, i've pinched some skin and shot in the thigh area, 50mg test

As far as thyroid goes...My tsh was 4.5....My doctor prescribed me armour, but didn't want to start to many things at once, so i waited on it for now......

Stop the Thyroid madness is good site to reat about thyroid problems..

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ Mods if this needs to be removed let m know.....

[bass]

Armour thyroid. No clue on dosing, but you can look up averages for it places, it will be highly individual though. Like test probably start you low and taper up, might suck till get it dialed in. I wouldn't take synthroid or other generics, cause it replaces t4 but no t3 in it leaving you to rely on conversion. Armour thyroid has both because it comes from animals.

but i need an RX for this, right?

[SEOINAGE]

but i need an RX for this, right?

Aye.

[bass]

Bass, I just restarted trt

So following closely

Two sub q shots so far, i've pinched some skin and shot in the thigh area, 50mg test

As far as thyroid goes...My tsh was 4.5....My doctor prescribed me armour, but didn't want to start to many things at once, so i waited on it for now......

Stop the Thyroid madness is good site to reat about thyroid problems..

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ Mods if this needs to be removed let m know.....

thanks for the link, i've seen the website before, but this time I'll read through it.

[SEOINAGE]

I know some aas users use t3 to help them lose weight. This stuff is serious, you don't want to screw with the dosage, take too much, or come off it too fast etc.

[bass]

man reading the side effects of these meds it makes more sense to stick with the side effects of high TSH! LOL.

[Brohim]

thanks Vette! never taken anything for thyroid, can you guys guide me as to what supplement i should try first and how to dose it? i don't want to get too many things at once just want to try one thing at a time and see how it works.

Bass Ill send you a PM with the link to these products. But you can buy some Lugol's iodine solution. It has a bunch of good reviews from people with sluggish Thyroid. It requires no RX. You can put a few drops on your thigh and if you body absorps it in less than 12 hour's that means you are deficit in iodine.

[bass]

thanks for the PM Brohim. i tend to be high in potassium, will iodine elevate my potassium?

[GFA]

Im still curious if SC is as effective as IM for test injections. Its hard to tell from your story since you previously did 200mg a week with 1600 ng/DL then dropped down to 30mg EOD (~120mg?) and only 660 ng/DL test level along with taking HCG .

A better comparison would have been

200mg week IM = 1600 ng/DL
200mg week SC = XXX ng/DL

Too many variables here to know if its as effective.

I may give it a shot later to see once I get a good baseline.

[fm2002]

Im still curious if SC is as effective as IM for test injections. Its hard to tell from your story since you previously did 200mg a week with 1600 ng/DL then dropped down to 30mg EOD (~120mg?) and only 660 ng/DL test level along with taking HCG .

A better comparison would have been

200mg week IM = 1600 ng/DL
200mg week SC = XXX ng/DL

Too many variables here to know if its as effective.

I may give it a shot later to see once I get a good baseline.

Agree. You really need to change only one thing in your regime to isolate a result. Keep the total weekly dosages the same. Only change to SQ and more frequently.

[zaggahamma]

That's bass and his math