Thinking of pausing my testosterone injections for a while.

**killergoalie** · 04-08-2012, 12:47 PM

Thanks mano...ditto for me on what I want to see/achieve.

**DGK** · 04-08-2012, 04:20 PM

What you felt after the first injection was most likely a placebo effect manonfire. Although test cyp has a short half life, it will take a few weeks for you to fully feel the effects. im actually taking my next injection a few days early so when i go in for my 4 week blood test my levels are lower then they should be based upon their schedule. So they will hopefully do 1 of 2 things. Either raise my bi weekly dose, or keep my dose the same but provide me with a script for weekly injections at the same 200 mg dose.

**manonfire** · 04-08-2012, 07:07 PM

I was planning to stop a week prior to my blood test so hopefully my levels will be low so I can get an higher dose... As for the pacebo effect??? Not to sure that was what it was

**killergoalie** · 04-11-2012, 05:37 PM

Well I'm finally feeling a bit better!

After my initial injection approx 7 weeks ago of 150mg of Testosterone -Cypionate (at a Total Testosterone level of 40.3 ng/dl) which produced a great "buzz" for about 4 days, nothing has been able to reproduce that level of euphoria. Not my next injection of 150mg which was 3 weeks later, not my next injection of 100mg which was 11 days after that, not even two injections of 50mg which were 3.5 days apart...the first being 6 days from the 100mg injection.

However, this week, I decided to try 3 SubQ injections per week @ 40mg per injection...each one 56 hours apart. The first one was Sunday Morning @ 7:00 A.M. the second one was yesterday (Tuesday afternoon @ 3:00 P.M.) and the next will be tomorrow (Thursday night @ 11:00 P.M.).
After both Sunday's and Yesterday's injections, I feel incredible!! Almost the same "buzz" or euphoric feeling that I had after my first 150mg Injection! I have much more energy, more alertness, less fatigue, more libido etc.

The first 3 injections were all IM, the next 4 were SubQ...which I will continue doing.

I hope this effect doesn't wear off cause it feels great!

I've read a few other reports where users of the 3 x per week @ 40mg test-cyp each time SubQ also had great results. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I just thought I'd pass it on.

**keep fightin** · 04-11-2012, 07:51 PM

hey Killer , good stuff, thinking about the 3x as well, Bass and GD are I believe using this protocol right now, glad your feeling like Tony the tiger!

**killergoalie** · 04-11-2012, 08:00 PM

Thanks, KF! Just hope this feeling lasts, and hopefully I'll feel even better once my E2 levels go down somewhat. *knocks on wood.

**GFA** · 04-12-2012, 05:44 AM

Let us know how your next BW turns up @40mg 3x a week SC. Really interested in hearing it.

**killergoalie** · 04-12-2012, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by GFA

Let us know how your next BW turns up @40mg 3x a week SC. Really interested in hearing it.

Will do. I'm actually planning on having some BW done this morning, which will be after 2 40mg SC injections. (My Endo gave me requisitions to get BW twice a week for 8 weeks if I want.) Haven't had any BW since April, 03, 2012, so I'm curious.

I will have had 3 SC injections between BW...50mg @ 8:00 P.M. on Wed Apr 04, 40mg @ 7:00 A.M. on Sun Apr 08, and 40 mg @ 3:00 P.M. on Tues Apr 10th, so it should give me a fair idea of things. Esp with the BW being taken 2 days after my last injection. I'm anxious to see the effects on my BW myself.

I will of course get more BW done next week after my 3rd injection of 40mg. (I might get BW done on Saturday morning which will be approx 32 hours after my 3rd injection of 40mg)

**Vettester** · 04-12-2012, 10:20 AM

Sorry KG, I'm just not buying this "sweet spot" stuff because you elected to try 3x/wk via Sub Q. I think there's other variables involved, including the obesity and diabetes that you've spoke about. To boot, the gap between your injections has been all over the place. I agree with DGK that you were probably feeling some sort of placebo, as it does indeed take many weeks to workup. Just saying ... If you took 2 injections and felt none of the so called euphoria, how would 3x make the difference between night and day? Maybe your serum levels are just now starting to stabilize now that you've been medicating a little more frequently than the initial injections where you waited 3 weeks, then 11 days, ...

**zaggahamma** · 04-12-2012, 10:40 AM

thowing in towel to sweet spot in 5 days

priceless

**bass** · 04-12-2012, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by keep fightin

hey Killer , good stuff, thinking about the 3x as well, Bass and GD are I believe using this protocol right now, glad your feeling like Tony the tiger!

not sure what GD's protocol is now, but mine been eod test/hCG no AI, one day test and the next hCG, and never felt better since i got on TRT.

**killergoalie** · 04-12-2012, 11:56 AM

@Vetteman, and jpkman. Thanks for your feedback. I can understand your skepticism, and I don't blame you. I realize now that it's probably a placebo effect or some other reason behind my "euphoric" feeling, but whatever it is, at least I'm feeling better than I was! Can't you at least let me enjoy it? Sheesh!!

Maybe "sweet spot" was/is the wrong term to use but let a guy feel good whatever the reason is instead of bashing him, and making fun of him for getting excited, and being happy that he feels good. Thanks alot for the buzzkill!

**Vettester** · 04-12-2012, 12:27 PM

KG, coming from me, there was no intended bashing. Apologies if you perceived that I was trying to take the wind out of your sails, as that was not my intention.

It's just that I feel there's sometimes too much emphasis taken sometimes with people thinking that if you pin precisely at 3 certain times throughout the week, and take your AI precisely at a certain time, then optimal well being will be achieved. Testosterone levels are always in a constant state of fluctuation, and will rise and drop throughout the day for various reasons. I pin 2x week ... Honestly, I see very little difference doing it twice as opposed to 1x, maybe a little, BUT nothing that makes it night and day.

I think the balance game depends on so many other variables. When talking hormones, the obvious E2 comes into play, as does free and bio test, which leads a patient to understand their SHBG levels. Throw in cortisol and thyroid levels, then you have something to think about. Even just having a thyroid condition can cause a person to feel like crap, and that has no dependency on where a patient is at on total testosterone serum ... Could be high, low, in the middle ... Don't matter.

Again, apologies if you take anything I say as a "buzz kill." It's just that I don't view testosterone as the "Be all, fix all." It is only one component. It's an important component, but still just one of many upon many when looking at the full spectrum.

**killergoalie** · 04-12-2012, 02:33 PM

Hey Vetteman, apology accepted, although none was really necessary, as I probably over reacted. No hard feelings I hope.

I understand fully what you're saying in that testosterone IS just one factor in an array of many.

I guess I was just happy to finally feel something other than lethargy, depression, and tiredness that I just naturally attributed it to the only "change" I had made, which was the frequency of my injections.

Since my total T levels always seem to be higher than 10.0 nmol/L lately, my Medical plan won't pay for a bioavailable testosterone test (which includes SHBG), and I don't have $75 to spare to pay for it myself. Likewise my Drs. won't request an Estradiol test for at least another 3-4 weeks, so I'll only be able to find out my total testosterone levels on a weekly basis.

Perhaps the fact that my Total T. level was so low when I started this whole journey 7 weeks or so ago, and as you so eloquently put it, maybe my levels are FINALLY reaching some level of consistency, or stabilization, and that's most likely what I am feeling.

Whatever the reason, I hope it lasts, and even gets better.

Now if I could only find a local Dr. to prescribe me some Anastrozole, I should really be able to get the show on the road. I'm even considering some OTC supplements such as DIM, I-3-C, Calcium D-Glucarate etc. Just to help lower my Estrogen levels. I want to get the show on the road!!

**killergoalie** · 04-12-2012, 04:41 PM

Well I just received my limited BW results. All they could give me was my Total Testosterone level. So far this has been my best reading yet.

Total testosterone: 16.8 nmol/L from a range of 8.4 - 28.7 nmol/L.

Converted using the exact same conversion factor as always...Total test: 484.1 ng/dl from a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl.

So it's not optimum by any means, but it's getting better.

**killergoalie** · 04-18-2012, 07:41 PM

Just got my latest BW results...again all my Medical Plan would pay for is Total Testosterone , even though the lab request was for BioAvailable Test. But it's better than nothing.

When I started TRT in the middle of February, my total testosterone was 40.3 ng/dl. From a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl.

I've been on SubQ injections @ 40mg of Test-Cyp, 3x per week for the past 2 weeks, (Last injection was @ 3 P.M. yesterday), and my latest BW revealed a total testosterone level of 611 ng/dl. From the same range of 242 - 827 so it's gone up nicely.

They listed the levels in nmol/L so my result was a Total Testosterone level of 21.2 nmol/L from a range of 8.4 - 28.7 nmol/L.

All I need now is to lower my E2 level!

**freshmaker** · 04-18-2012, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by killergoalie

Just got my latest BW results...again all my Medical Plan would pay for is Total Testosterone , even though the lab request was for BioAvailable Test. But it's better than nothing.

When I started TRT in the middle of February, my total testosterone was 40.3 ng/dl. From a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl.

I've been on SubQ injections @ 40mg of Test-Cyp, 3x per week for the past 2 weeks, (Last injection was @ 3 P.M. yesterday), and my latest BW revealed a total testosterone level of 611 ng/dl. From the same range of 242 - 827 so it's gone up nicely.

They listed the levels in nmol/L so my result was a Total Testosterone level of 21.2 nmol/L from a range of 8.4 - 28.7 nmol/L.

All I need now is to lower my E2 level!

Are you still feeling as good as you were a week ago? Buzzed? Euphoric?

Congrats on your great results.

**freshmaker** · 04-18-2012, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by killergoalie

Just got my latest BW results...again all my Medical Plan would pay for is Total Testosterone , even though the lab request was for BioAvailable Test. But it's better than nothing.

When I started TRT in the middle of February, my total testosterone was 40.3 ng/dl. From a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl.

I've been on SubQ injections @ 40mg of Test-Cyp, 3x per week for the past 2 weeks, (Last injection was @ 3 P.M. yesterday), and my latest BW revealed a total testosterone level of 611 ng/dl. From the same range of 242 - 827 so it's gone up nicely.

They listed the levels in nmol/L so my result was a Total Testosterone level of 21.2 nmol/L from a range of 8.4 - 28.7 nmol/L.

All I need now is to lower my E2 level!

Are you still feeling as good as you were a week ago? Buzzed? Euphoric?

Congrats on your great results.

Oh, and when was your blood work taken?

**killergoalie** · 04-18-2012, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by freshmaker

Are you still feeling as good as you were a week ago? Buzzed? Euphoric?

Congrats on your great results.

Oh, and when was your blood work taken?

Not feeling as Euphoric or as "Buzzed" as I was a week ago...probably due to still elevated E2 levels. (Will have those tested in a week or so), but feeling better than I did before I started TRT. Need to get my energy levels up so I feel like working out again. But I think I'm slowly getting onto the "good" side of the equation. *knocks on wood.

My blood Work was taken at 9:15 this morning.

Thanks for the congrats.

**keep fightin** · 04-19-2012, 09:39 PM

go get em killer! cool to have so much initial BW even if limited, really good stuff, if your veins don't collapse keep throwing that BW up! very interesting read. Your "new normal" is going to be great..

**killergoalie** · 04-20-2012, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by keep fightin

go get em killer! cool to have so much initial BW even if limited, really good stuff, if your veins don't collapse keep throwing that BW up! very interesting read. Your "new normal" is going to be great..

Thanks KF! Being a type 2 diabetic, I'm so used to having blood drawn. (I think I'll ask for a reserved parking spot at the lab I always go to...along with my own private chair in the lab itself. lol) I don't even feel the needle going in, at times I even have to ask when they're going to start, and they've already finished.

I guess now I have to decide what I'd like my "new normal" total testosterone level to be.

**killergoalie** · 04-20-2012, 04:25 PM

I went to see the Dr. at the walk-in clinic I went to a few weeks ago to get a requisition for an Estradiol test, and to check my red blood cell count, today, and he actually gave me a requisition to have NINE tests done...

Hematology Panel

Ferritin

Random Glucose

Alkaline Phosphatase (ALP)

Alanine Transference (ALT)

Thyroid Function:
TSH

T4 Free

Estradiol

Serum Indices

I guess he's worried about the condition of my liver, or just wants to do a routine check knowing I'm on TRT.

Hopefully I don't get any negative, or worrisome results.

I guess it's nice to have a Dr. who takes the time to request important tests.

**bass** · 04-20-2012, 04:43 PM

drink lots of water before yo go to the lab. in fact drinking lots of water every day is a good thing anyway.

**killergoalie** · 04-20-2012, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by bass

drink lots of water before yo go to the lab. in fact drinking lots of water every day is a good thing anyway.

Thanks Bass! I actually do drink plenty of water every day. (That's the ONLY thing I drink with the exception of a Coke zero on very rare occasions).

I've actually already had the tests done...just waiting for results. I had no idea he ordered a random glucose test, otherwise I wouldn't have eaten the 4 OREO cookies I did. LOL (Hey we all need a little treat every now and then).

**keep fightin** · 04-20-2012, 05:05 PM

not the double-stuffed ones!

**killergoalie** · 04-20-2012, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by keep fightin

not the double-stuffed ones!

No, not those...actually they were the 30% less fat ones. Hey I'm only human.

**marleyman** · 04-20-2012, 05:39 PM

KG, I am new to this as well about three months in. First gel then injections.When i first found out about the low test it freaked me out. So everyday i came home ignored my family and went on the net and found alot of info. Some good but mostly bad untill i found this site. I was not feeling good right away either. Pissed off everyone at my doctors office because everytime i felt a negative thing i freaked out and bothered them. They had enough of my crap and pushed me to another doc. After two injections with her and constant emails to her about everything. She finnaly told me to relax and stop thinking about it. Stop the constant internet research and just relax. Bam! ever since then i feel great! I think we all focus on numbers instead of how we feel. I know i am a newbie but just wanted to share that with you and every newbie that looks on this site. i am sure most of us did what i did when they found out they had low test.

**killergoalie** · 04-20-2012, 05:53 PM

Thanks for the support, and suggestions, marleyman...much appreciated.

Oh I know how you feel/felt. I think what really annoyed me is that after reading so many reports on the net about how men on TRT all of a sudden started feeling 25 again, I thought it would be practically an overnight sensation! Yes I know...stupid me! But then common sense prevailed, and I realized it was a lengthy, and very detailed "fight"/procedure. There was/is no "quick fix".

Of course I wish I would start to feel more energetic on a more consistent basis, instead of just a few days at a time, weeks apart.

I'm happy with how my testosterone levels are rising nicely, I just wish my Estrogen levels would go down, so hopefully I'd feel more energetic. Not to mention to hopefully also stop the slight nipple pain I've been feeling the past week or so.

But I'm glad to have Dr.s who are apparently at least taking an interest in my health, and my levels.

**marleyman** · 04-20-2012, 06:02 PM

Stick with it. I was ready to toss in the towel as well untill i found this site. Good info,good people who truly just wants to help and share their experence.

**killergoalie** · 04-20-2012, 06:22 PM

Oh I'm going to stick with it for sure. Having a total testosterone level of 40.3 ng/dl when I started was really depressing! (Old ladies who have been dead for 3 years have higher testosterone levels than that!!) So yeah, I'm going to stick with this. I love the SubQ injection protocol that I'm on, and yeah, this board has been very helpful and supportive. Helps us keep a level head, and not get too excited, or too concerned.

I think once I start feeling better on a more consistent basis, I'll be able to relax a bit more. Plus it will probably create a "snowball" effect in that feeling better will allow me to be more active, which will in return make me feel even better still!

**killergoalie** · 04-20-2012, 08:52 PM

Well I just got my Blood Work results back...not too bad I don't think. (Except for my Estradiol...which went UP!!!, and of course my glucose was high, which I knew it was going to be.) Some of my Hematology is also out of range, but not too severely. Any suggestions or reasons as to why you might think the results
are what they are, would be greatly appreciated.

TEST / RESULT / RANGE / UNITS

Hematology

WBC / 8.2 / 4.0 - 10.0 / giga/L

RBC / 4.94 / 4.20 - 5.40 / tera/L

Hemoglobin / 130 / 133 - 165 / g/L

Hematocrit / 0.42 / 0.38 - 0.50

MCV / 86 / 82 - 98 / fl

MCH / 26.3 / 27.5 - 33.5 / pg

MCHC / 307 / 305 - 365 / g/L

RDW / 17.1 / 11.5 - 14.5 / %

Platelet Count / 304 / 150 - 400 / giga/L

DIFFERENTIAL

Neutrophils / 4.7 / 2.0 - 7.5 / giga/L

Lymphocytes / 2.5 / 1.0 - 4.0 / " "

Monocytes / 0.7 / 0.1 - 0.8 / " "

Eosinophils / 0.2 / 0.0 - 0.7 / " "

Basophils / 0.0 / 0.0 - 0.2 / " "

Ferritin / 59 / 15 - 300 / ug/L

Random Glucose / 12.3 / 3.3 - 11.0 / mmol/L

Alkaline Phosphatase / 70 / 48 - 138 / U/L

ALT / 28 / <60 / U/L

THYROID FUNCTION

TSH / 1.6 / 0.38 - 5.5 / mU/L

T4 Free / The free T4 order was cancelled. The BCMA/MSP Protocol recommends no further testing.
However, a specimen will be stored seven days.

Estradiol / 184 / < 150 / pmol/L

**keep fightin** · 04-20-2012, 10:15 PM

it was those damn Oreos! but so good.. your gettin on top of it Killer

**killergoalie** · 04-20-2012, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by keep fightin

it was those damn Oreos! but so good.. your gettin on top of it Killer

Exactly!! I guess Mr. Christie needs to come out with an Arimidex Edition of Oreos!! I can just hear the walk-in clinic Dr. now..OMG you have Diabetes!! Uhhh yeah...I've had it for like 7 years that I know of, and my blood sugar levels are usually quite good esp if I'm tested after an 8-10 hour fast...NOT 10 minutes after I've just eaten 4 Oreo cookies!! LOL!!

Thanks KF, it's a never ending battle it seems.

I'm thinking a multiVitamin might be a good idea...something like MegaMen 50 plus from GNC. (as long as it contains Iron, B6, B12, Folic Acid, and Copper)

Hopefully it will help raise my Hemoglobin, MCH, and possibly my MCHC levels, while at the same time lower my RDW % although they're not too much out of range.

I hope to get something to lower my E2 levels this week as well.

**keep fightin** · 04-22-2012, 01:15 AM

Hey Killer, yeah getting that E into a range that has you " high E " symptom free will make a world of difference, you've probably seen that there is a lot of discussion on just where that sweet spot is, there is one school of thought here that feels higher E with no outward symptoms is OK , maybe even beneficial. In your case I suspect you will feel better with that E down a bit. for me, crashing my E into the teens was horrible! so I would say be conservative and make small adjustments. Saw a study of Valencia oranges with no detectable Vit C in them , the multi is not a bad idea..

**killergoalie** · 04-22-2012, 02:08 AM

Sounds like an interesting study, KF. Although I don't see what benefit eating oranges without Vitamin C in them would serve. lol Isn't Vitamin C a GOOD thing to have?

I'd be happy to get my E2 level down to between 22 & 30. Hell, I'd be happy to have it down to 35-40 for starters. Just so I'd feel better.

**killergoalie** · 04-23-2012, 02:35 PM

Deleted.

**Jailer** · 12-04-2012, 10:21 PM

So what happened here? The last post seems to be on 4-23. I am almost 3 months into TRT and getting some of the same lethargy and wondered if killergoalie was able to find an answer.