Been Test C for 6 weeks now without hcg or AI...

[PetrX]

Im just curious, Ive using 200 mg a week of Test Cyp and I have no bloat, water-retention, no itchy nor sensitive nipples, have put on about 6 lbs of muscle without changing my diet and same workout routine.. Question is, how long will I be this fortunate?? lol around what time do people notice that they need AI's or HCG ??

[GFA]

You could be fine forever. Only blood work will tell on E2 levels. You should also get your lipids, CBCs, liver, PSA and other BW checked on a routine basis.

[zaggahamma]

as gfa stated i would get BW done asap

and see where e2,etc. is

we're all different

congrats on the added lean bro

[Vettester]

Good job in your gains! As jpkman indicated, we are all different with this stuff, so it's hard to tell how long for sure you will ride the lightening with this progress on the same routine. But, I can tell you from experience that it will usually tapers off between 3 to 6 months. From thereon you can see progress and make gains, but it won't be at the rate you're seeing now.

Definitely run labs if you haven't yet. The six (6) month interval is one of the most crucial intervals for taking BW.

[HRTstudent]

it's a huge myth that you need an AI and to a lesser extent hcg ...

estrogen has a bad stigma to men just like testosterone does to the USA. if you don't get too high e2 and you don't have sides then there is no reason to take a drug that has potentially deleterious side effects like anastrozole.

if anything, if you add hcg you might then need an AI because hcg will almost assuredly raise your e2. HCG would mainly be useful if u notice the subjective well being which is hit or miss, often miss. if you were insistent upon maintaining fertility for conception in the next year or so, then I think you would have to use HCG if you wanted to stay on TRT (there may be alternatives to hcg though).

Finally, it's important to remember that the people on these forums are usually the exception, not the norm. most people go on androgel from their primary, love the boosted T and never think twice about their e2 or what they can add/subtract/manipulate.

[zaggahamma]

is it a myth that ON ANDROGEL my e2 went from 25 to 78 in a month?

[bass]

i respectfully disagree with my friend HRT Student, from what i have read and seen mostly from this forum is most of us need it, there are few who don't like JohnyVegas and KelKel, and i am sure there are few more, but most of us do need it especially at that dose (200 mgs). like i said before, i believe the conversion dose taper off in time, but not entirely.

[bass]

Im just curious, Ive using 200 mg a week of Test Cyp and I have no bloat, water-retention, no itchy nor sensitive nipples, have put on about 6 lbs of muscle without changing my diet and same workout routine.. Question is, how long will I be this fortunate?? lol around what time do people notice that they need AI's or HCG ??

congratulations on your gains! love to see your blood work, 6 weeks is perfect time for follow up blood work.

[warchild]

blood work doesn't lie. I was on trt for 2-3 yrs before I started adex and hcg .

[PetrX]

Thanx everyone, I was just curious about the AI and hcg stuff and when everyone (if needed) had to start using it..I'm drawing my blood tomorrow before I go on shift at the VA to make sure everything is going good, I will probably be checkin my blood every 3-4 weeks to monitor everything and keep it on track. I did however increase the amount of fiber I consume as well as vegetables such as broccoli. Cauliflower, brussle sprouts, and added flax seed oil to my diet since I read that these foods can help lower estrogen levels in men. Hopefully ill never need AI's and hcg

[steroid.com 1]

Also, a man can have elevated E2 levels and present with no negative sides...high E2 can be insidious.

Get BW OP...

[zaggahamma]

sounds good please keep us posted

[steroid.com 1]

Thanx everyone, I was just curious about the AI and hcg stuff and when everyone (if needed) had to start using it..I'm drawing my blood tomorrow before I go on shift at the VA to make sure everything is going good, I will probably be checkin my blood every 3-4 weeks to monitor everything and keep it on track. I did however increase the amount of fiber I consume as well as vegetables such as broccoli. Cauliflower, brussle sprouts, and added flax seed oil to my diet since I read that these foods can help lower estrogen levels in men. Hopefully ill never need AI's and hcg

Stay away from Flax Seed it's an estrogen mimic...Soy as well.

[ecdysone]

it's a huge myth that you need an AI and to a lesser extent hcg ...

estrogen has a bad stigma to men just like testosterone does to the USA. if you don't get too high e2 and you don't have sides then there is no reason to take a drug that has potentially deleterious side effects like anastrozole.

if anything, if you add hcg you might then need an AI because hcg will almost assuredly raise your e2. HCG would mainly be useful if u notice the subjective well being which is hit or miss, often miss. if you were insistent upon maintaining fertility for conception in the next year or so, then I think you would have to use HCG if you wanted to stay on TRT (there may be alternatives to hcg though).

Finally, it's important to remember that the people on these forums are usually the exception, not the norm. most people go on androgel from their primary, love the boosted T and never think twice about their e2 or what they can add/subtract/manipulate.

I respectfully disagree with those who disagree with HRT

It's precisely what I would have said.

Estrogen, namely E2 has so many good benefits in the male body (bone development, cardiovascular protection, reproduction) that screwing with it (not that we don't do so with supplemental test) could cause as many issues as just letting it rise a bit. I've often advised guys to cap it at mid-40s but honestly, see no reason it couldn't rise into the low 100 range IF no symptoms are presented. In this regard, BW may not be your friend.

[bass]

Stay away from Flax Seed it's an estrogen mimic...Soy as well.

very true!

I respectfully disagree with those who disagree with HRT

It's precisely what I would have said.

Estrogen, namely E2 has so many good benefits in the male body (bone development, cardiovascular protection, reproduction) that screwing with it (not that we don't do so with supplemental test) could cause as many issues as just letting it rise a bit. I've often advised guys to cap it at mid-40s but honestly, see no reason it couldn't rise into the low 100 range IF no symptoms are presented. In this regard, BW may not be your friend.

what is your e2 level if you don't mind me asking? my philosophy is keep everything within favorable range. low 100s! no thanks!

[HRTstudent]

i respectfully disagree with my friend HRT Student, from what i have read and seen mostly from this forum is most of us need it, there are few who don't like JohnyVegas and KelKel, and i am sure there are few more, but most of us do need it especially at that dose (200 mgs). like i said before, i believe the conversion dose taper off in time, but not entirely.

I always like to say, the people on this forum are not average! there are millions and millions of men on TRT. on this forum we have merely a handful of posters. this is by no means a fair sample of how most men are dealing with their low t .

and 200mg of T is a high dose like you said, and many experts like Dr Crisler consider that the highest they will go. they prefer to start men around 80-100mg per week, and that's a fair dose that works well for many men.

is it a myth that ON ANDROGEL my e2 went from 25 to 78 in a month?

not at all! but that doesn't mean you're average


I should point out, I am absolutely not saying don't treat high e2 if it's too high!

[HRTstudent]

very true!



what is your e2 level if you don't mind me asking? my philosophy is keep everything within favorable range. low 100s! no thanks!

my e2 is shit right now! I am hopefully switching to injections. I'll take an AI if I need to and I know I get sides if e2 goes too high. I seem to be a hyper-aromatizer, and transdermal might exacerbate this.

[Hackamaniac]

Just curious why you started out at 200mg weekly??? You said in several threads you were going to start at 80-100mg a week??

[bass]

my e2 is shit right now! I am hopefully switching to injections. I'll take an AI if I need to and I know I get sides if e2 goes too high. I seem to be a hyper-aromatizer, and transdermal might exacerbate this.

thanks HRT, but my question was for ECD! well once you switch your e2 most likely will go up, how much no one knows.

[bullshark99]

^^^^^PetrX, not to bust your balls o ranything but this morning I was thinking the same thing, I recall reading a post of yours which indicated 80-100 per week something like that. Was too lazy to go thru them all, but why the change of heart to 200??? Maybe I missed something, if so apologies in advance.

[PetrX]

^^^^^PetrX, not to bust your balls o ranything but this morning I was thinking the same thing, I recall reading a post of yours which indicated 80-100 per week something like that. Was too lazy to go thru them all, but why the change of heart to 200??? Maybe I missed something, if so apologies in advance.

I decided since I have an unlimited amount of Test Cyp, I would start at 200 mg a week to try and add more muscle. The Dr and endo recommended I start on 125 mg a week, but I decided I rather add alittle more since now I want to reach 240 lbs while keeping my BF% at 6-8%. If my test is too high then I will cut down to 125 mg a week.. But since I started at 200 mg a week, I have reduced my insulin needs by 50%. Muscle burns sugars and with adding muscle my hypothesis is im burning more sugar. So tomorrow's BW panel will let me know in what direction I take as far as a weekly dosage goes.

[ecdysone]

what is your e2 level if you don't mind me asking? my philosophy is keep everything within favorable range. low 100s! no thanks!

bass: it's just so complicated...

That amazing organism within we live has so many feedback loops that once you try to affect one, the others over-compensates.

For example, did you realize that SHBG very much likes to bind to E2? So high E2 levels are good because they reduce "free-SHBG" which then allows free-test to rise. Or, maybe it's not good to have elevated E2 levels because they will inhibit the GnRH system to release less testosterone ?

BTW, what is the NORMAL RANGE for E2 in individuals who regularly unbalance their HPTA by injecting test? For certain, it's not the one LabCorp or Quest uses based on "normal population studies," i.e. guys not using test. And its unlikely to be the one based on epidemiological studies.

What is a good range for E2? Answer: one where you feel good and don't display any adverse symptoms. Might be 25...might be 45...might be 100.

Oh yeah, my last E2 was 27, but that was back when I used 150 mg test/week along with 750IU HCG and 1 mg adex. With my current protocol of 120 mg test, 0.5 mg Adex and 500 IU HCG per week, I'm going to do some BW next week, so TBA.

I've never had a hint of gyno, so I'm considering dropping the Adex and reducing the HCG to 350IU if things look good.

[zaggahamma]

Interesting twist
2 guys that not only don't think u need to have e2 at 23 but even 100 is fine without symptoms
I've always proposed and most know it that I thought the preaching of needing e2 in the 20's was GONNA make u feel best
But 100 ....that's a first

[bass]

bass: it's just so complicated...

That amazing organism within we live has so many feedback loops that once you try to affect one, the other ove-compensates.

For example, did you realize that SHBG very much likes to bind to E2? So high E2 levels are good because they reduce "free-SHBG" which then allows free-test to rise. Or, maybe it's not good to have elevated E2 levels because they will inhibit the GnRH system to release less testosterone ?

BTW, what is the NORMAL RANGE for E2 in individuals who regularly unbalance their HPTA by injecting test? For certain, it's not the one LabCorp or Quest uses based on "normal population studies," i.e. guys not using test. And its unlikely to be the one based on epidemiological studies.

What is a good range for E2? Answer: one where you feel good and don't display any adverse symptoms. Might be 25...might be 45...might be 100.

Oh yeah, my last E2 was 27, but that was back when I used 150 mg test/week along with 750IU HCG and 1 mg adex. With my current protocol of 120 mg test, 0.5 mg Adex and 500 IU HCG per week, I'm going to do some BW next week, so TBA.

I've never had a hint of gyno, so I'm considering dropping the Adex and reducing the HCG to 350IU if things look good.

nicely put ECD! i agree low e2 is probably the worst thing you can have. the problem with e2 is really hard to measure by symptoms until its too late. i look forward to see your blood work.

[JD250]

bass: it's just so complicated...

That amazing organism within we live has so many feedback loops that once you try to affect one, the other ove-compensates.
Doesn't matter as long as everything is in an acceptable range.
For example, did you realize that SHBG very much likes to bind to E2? So high E2 levels are good because they reduce "free-SHBG" which then allows free-test to rise. Not true, your using very vague terms, it may be that normal e2 levels reduce free SHBG and higher levels have no added positive effect, only negative

Or, maybe it's not good to have elevated E2 levels because they will inhibit the GnRH system to release less testosterone ?

BTW, what is the NORMAL RANGE for E2 in individuals who regularly unbalance their HPTA by injecting test? For certain, it's not the one LabCorp or Quest uses based on "normal population studies," i.e. guys not using test. And its unlikely to be the one based on epidemiological studies.

Of course it would be the ones lab corp and others use, even if you found a happy medium between all the different suggested optimum levels. Just because the test is exogenous doesn't mean that we can no longer use levels associated with those who have good natural levels, who or what else would you want your levels to mimic? We base ALL our hormone levels on that scale, yes?

What is a good range for E2? Answer: one where you feel good and don't display any adverse symptoms. Might be 25...might be 45...might be 100.

Probably not 100, I think at this point you're flying in the face of experience and what the medical field has found to be normal.

Oh yeah, my last E2 was 27, but that was back when I used 150 mg test/week along with 750IU HCG and 1 mg adex. With my current protocol of 120 mg test, 0.5 mg Adex and 500 IU HCG per week, I'm going to do some BW next week, so TBA.

I've never had a hint of gyno, so I'm considering dropping the Adex and reducing the HCG to 350IU if things look good.

I'm all for NOT using an AI and I hope this works for you, my hope is that through being a guinea pig some of us will find a way to slow or even stop conversion with our dosing and schedules........on that point I think we agree 100%

Alright, I'll be the one who doesn't buy in that easy......answers in bold

[keep fightin]

great thread! we are all learning here, lets keep this one lively! 405 has an interesting adex situation in His recent thread..

[zaggahamma]

Alright, I'll be the one who doesn't buy in that easy......answers in bold

who was buying in?

[kelkel]

bass: it's just so complicated...

That amazing organism within we live has so many feedback loops that once you try to affect one, the other ove-compensates. Agreed. Our bodies search for balance.

For example, did you realize that SHBG very much likes to bind to E2? So high E2 levels are good because they reduce "free-SHBG" which then allows free-test to rise. Or, maybe it's not good to have elevated E2 levels because they will inhibit the GnRH system to release less testosterone ? If we're not to really worry about E2, why worry about shbg?

BTW, what is the NORMAL RANGE for E2 in individuals who regularly unbalance their HPTA by injecting test? For certain, it's not the one LabCorp or Quest uses based on "normal population studies," i.e. guys not using test. And its unlikely to be the one based on epidemiological studies. I look at it opposite. I'm trying to balance my hpta as my own system failed me.

What is a good range for E2? Answer: one where you feel good and don't display any adverse symptoms. Might be 25...might be 45...might be 100. Would the same work for Test. 1000-2000, etc.

Oh yeah, my last E2 was 27, but that was back when I used 150 mg test/week along with 750IU HCG and 1 mg adex. With my current protocol of 120 mg test, 0.5 mg Adex and 500 IU HCG per week, I'm going to do some BW next week, so TBA. I'd be thrilled with that E2 level instead of stuck at 15-16!

I've never had a hint of gyno, so I'm considering dropping the Adex and reducing the HCG to 350IU if things look good.

Good post as usual Ecd!

[bass]

who was buying in?

not me for sure, but ECD does have some challenging questions and points!

[JD250]

ECD has some very good posts, I just made that statement because it seemed like you guys agreed with these particular statements, I personally think they're quite broad and without evidence. Didn't mean to sound accusative.

[zaggahamma]

ECD has some very good posts, I just made that statement because it seemed like you guys agreed with these particular statements, I personally think they're quite broad and without evidence. Didn't mean to sound accusative.

no..all good...agree with how you worded it this time...both those guys post intellecually...

for me, it was good confirming my beliefs and what ive always maintained about symptoms being more important factor to look at when dealing with e2

but stating that something is a myth isnt accurate so i called it out...

i've said it before though, i do agree and said it myself that we (this forum) dont represent the majority of ppl on trt but just because joe lowT might not know his e2 doesnt mean it aint rising and/or disabling a better health

[bass]

i believe we do represent the majority and this is why we are here because we needed help at one point. the difference between us and those out there is we know allot more about TRT than they do, and thats why we believe managing E2 is and will always be an important element in TRT. i do however agree that E2 management is based on an individual and agree with JPK how you feel is more important than numbers but not if numbers are out of range!

[steroid.com 1]

"What is a good range for E2? Answer: one where you feel good and don't display any adverse symptoms. Might be 25...might be 45...might be 100."

Please let me reiterate; men can have "elevated" E2 and NOT present with any symptoms yet still get all of the ugly malignant results.

Yes, symptoms are a clear sign but like any other disease symptoms may not appear until the disease progresses to a late stage.

I honestly believe there are ideal ranges for E2 (TRT or not) and the Physician's who are at the top of the TRT field seem to have a solid grasp of what that "optimal" range should be...and that's good enough for me.

[PetrX]

Well i just got my testosterone bw back and it was at 1251 range is 241-827. The bw was taken 4 days after my injection. Ill get to see the rest of the results tomorrow morning when I go into work and see my dr and endo.. Is my test levels too high to the point that they will want to cut back on my dosage? I have no water retention, no high bp, no acne, and my blood sugar has been great to the point where im using less insulin than before

[zaggahamma]

Well i just got my testosterone bw back and it was at 1251 range is 241-827. The bw was taken 4 days after my injection. Ill get to see the rest of the results tomorrow morning when I go into work and see my dr and endo.. Is my test levels too high to the point that they will want to cut back on my dosage? I have no water retention, no high bp, no acne, and my blood sugar has been great to the point where im using less insulin than before

quite possibly even though having you test at peak should have expected to be high

had to scroll up to see dose

200 ew is a high trt dose

whose idea to test at day 4

[PetrX]

quite possibly even though having you test at peak should have expected to be high

had to scroll up to see dose

200 ew is a high trt dose

whose idea to test at day 4

That was the dr's idea.

[doc w]

Can't remember are u on AI. I think those levels are fine if u feel good. I run 200 we with similar levels. A lot of guys on this board do quite a bit less and feel great. There is an interesting new study that shows an inverse relationship between free test and arterial calcification. So possibly running higher test is better for heart disease but worse for other health issues. No one truly knows. Certainly keeping e2 in check IMO is more important. At 200 ew no one on this board would say that ur abusing test.

[kelkel]

More important what your free T is. Let us know.

[PetrX]

*Update*

Free Testosterone - 16.8 pg/mL range 6.8-21.5

Estradiol- 28.0 pg/mL range 7.6-42.6

[ecdysone]

^^^ great numbers, was that the "sensitive" assay for E2?