When is the optimal time to take an Aromatase Inhibitor?

[killergoalie]

Just wondering when is the optimal time in relation to testosterone injections , to take an aromatase inhibitor such as Arimidex /Anastrozole?

I inject 40mg of testosterone -cypionate SubQ 3 x per week...Sundays @ 7:00 A.M. , Tuesdays @ 3:00 P.M. and Thursdays @ 11:00 P.M.

My current Total testosterone level is 611 ng/dl, while my current Estradiol level is 184 pmol/L

I was thinking of taking .25mg of Arimidex /Anastrozole (most likely in liquid form) 3 x per week just so I don't lower my E2 levels TOO much, just for starters to see how my body reacts. (I figure I can always increase the amount if my E2 levels don't go down enough, or down quick enough)

I was thinking of taking .25mg of Anastrozole 3x per week on Mondays @7:00 A.M., Wednesdays @ 3:00 P.M., and Fridays @ 11:00 P.M. which would be 24 hours after each testosterone -cypionate injection .

I'd appreciate any feedback or suggestions.

Thanks.

[AnabolicBoy1981]

im nuts about steady levels....but shit....
i'd just take it the same time everyday. Amazed you need it with that dose and shot frequency. What's you BF% if you dont mind me asking? i guess u'd have to find the half life of a-dex and sync it with the test. Seems like alot of fan fare for what might be a minimal improvement..idk

Also, when u first started the shots sub q were u doung 120 once a week, and if so what kind of fluctuations were you seeing? Im going to compare fluctuations with once a week IM injections and once a week Sub q injections. it'l take me a awhile cuz ill need like 5 tests for each method. But any info from other dudes would be appreciated.

[bass]

most of us take it 12-24 hours after injection. but i am concerned about your e2 level! what are the ranges and what type of test did you do, ultra sensitive or regular estradiol?

[killergoalie]

Thanks for the reply.

My BF % is quite high...probably over 30%. (Yes I realize that's a great contributing factor to excessive aromatase enzyme, and high E2 levels.) But I am working on bringing it down. However having a constant feeling of lethargy, tiredness, no energy i.e. the exact same symptoms I had 2 months ago when my total testosterone level was 40.3 ng/dl, makes it extremely difficult to have the energy, and motivation TO exercise/workout. (Which BTW I actually LOVE to do, and as little as a year ago was doing 6 days a week on a regular basis.)

I'm also a type 2 diabetic, but my blood sugar levels are nicely under control.

I started with IM injections of 150mg 3 weeks apart for the first 2, then 2 weeks apart for the next one (of 100mg), then I started doing the Sub Q injections twice a week @50mg.

The only time I actually felt ANYthing really from the test-cyp was after the very first injection, which lasted about 4 days. Even on the twice a week subQ injections, I never really felt that much better.

Here is a list of my Total Testosterone Levels :

Before any testosterone injections........................................ .................................................. .............40.3 ng/dl from a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl

One week after my first IM Test-Cyp injection of 150mg............................................. ............................331.4 ng/dl from a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl.
(My E2 level was 178 pmol/L from a range of < 150 pmol/L)

12 Days after my 2nd IM shot of 150mg of Test-Cyp, and 1 day after my 3rd IM shot of 100mg of Test-Cyp.....360.2 ng/dl from a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl

4 Days after my 3rd IM shot of Test-Cyp (100mg)........................................... .....................................403.4 ng/dl from a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl.

(My E2 level was 174 pmol/L from a range of < 150 pmol/L)

2 days after my last BW I began SubQ injections of 50mg of Test-Cyp twice a week. Sundays @ 8:00 A.M. and Wednesdays @ 8:00 P.M.

2 days after my first SubQ injection my total testosterone level was............................................... ...........377.5 ng/dl from a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl

The following Sunday (Apr. 8th) I began my current protocol of 3 x per week SubQ injections @ 40mg each.

My next BW was on Apr. 12th. My total testosterone level was............................................... ..................484.1 ng/dl from a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl.

My final BW for testosterone was on Apr. 18th, and my total testosterone level was.....................................611.0 ng/dl from a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl.

On Apr. 20th my E2 level was 184 pmol/L from a range of < 150 pmol/L.

So it's clear that 3 x per week SubQ injections of 40mg has increased my total testosterone levels quite nicely, but hasn't helped lower my E2 levels. (In fact they've increased.)


It wasn't until I began using my current protocol of 3x per week @ 40mg, that I began to actually feel better. However even that hasn't lasted as I still have the extreme constant lethargic/tired/listless feeling.

My last BW revealed a total testosterone level of 611 ng/dl...so as I've mentioned, that is going up rather nicely. I have no problem with that. But my E2 level has gone up in the last month and a half from 178, down to 174, but as of last Friday, it was a high of 184!! Plus I've been having sore nipples for the past couple of weeks.

Again, I realize that my BF has a lot to do with it, but it would take me a good 6 - 12 months to lose enough to have a major effect on lowering it, and I can't wait that long! Plus as I've also mentioned, I don't have the energy to workout. I WANT to...I really do, I just can't.

I thought that the more steady, low dose of SubQ injections would help lower my E2 levels...NOT raise them.

I just want to get them down A.S.A.P. so I'll begin to feel like all the TRT items claim we'll feel...energetic, like your 25 again, full of piss & vinegar etc.

As far as my dosing schedule, I know a lot of people think I'm nuts for being so precise, but when it comes to things like this, I'm sorry, but I don't want to take any chances, or do things haphazzardly. Besides I find it much easier to remember this way.

I actually "feel" better per se, I just wish I wasn't always so damn tired!! Hopefully an A.I. to lower my E2 levels A.S.A.P. will help with that.

Sorry for the long winded ramble, I just wanted to be as clear, and thorough as possible.

[Vettester]

Agree with bass, would like to see the reference ranges ... That E2 score is stratospheric! but the good news is that it can get into a manageable position in relatively short time.

[killergoalie]

Thanks bass. The ranges are < 150 pmol/L.

I request the sensitive assay for males Estradiol test, but unfortunately here in Canada (at least in B.C.) that's ONLY available for "research" use. So all we have available is the regular estradiol test.

I mentioned this on another TRT forum, and they told me that while the sensitive assay for males E2 test is preferred, with levels as high as mine are, it really doesn't make THAT much of a difference which test I used. They're still far TOO high!

[killergoalie]

BTW the Dr. I saw at the walk-in clinic 3 weeks ago ordered some BW for me on Friday. Here are the results:



TEST / RESULT / RANGE / UNITS

Hematology

WBC / 8.2 / 4.0 - 10.0 / giga/L

RBC / 4.94 / 4.20 - 5.40 / tera/L

Hemoglobin / 130 / 133 - 165 / g/L

Hematocrit / 0.42 / 0.38 - 0.50

MCV / 86 / 82 - 98 / fl

MCH / 26.3 / 27.5 - 33.5 / pg

MCHC / 307 / 305 - 365 / g/L

RDW / 17.1 / 11.5 - 14.5 / %

Platelet Count / 304 / 150 - 400 / giga/L

DIFFERENTIAL

Neutrophils / 4.7 / 2.0 - 7.5 / giga/L

Lymphocytes / 2.5 / 1.0 - 4.0 / " "

Monocytes / 0.7 / 0.1 - 0.8 / " "

Eosinophils / 0.2 / 0.0 - 0.7 / " "

Basophils / 0.0 / 0.0 - 0.2 / " "

Ferritin / 59 / 15 - 300 / ug/L

Random Glucose / 12.3 / 3.3 - 11.0 / mmol/L

Alkaline Phosphatase / 70 / 48 - 138 / U/L

ALT / 28 / <60 / U/L

THYROID FUNCTION

TSH / 1.6 / 0.38 - 5.5 / mU/L

T4 Free / The free T4 order was cancelled. The BCMA/MSP Protocol recommends no further testing.
However, a specimen will be stored seven days.


Estradiol / 184 / < 150 / pmol/L



Yes I realize that my random glucose level was high, but I had the blood work drawn about 15 minutes after I had just eaten 4 Oreo cookies. LOL (Not to mention my lunch etc.) When I normally do my Blood Glucose test in the morning after a fast my levels are much better (lower).

As far as the other tests that are out of range...the Hemoglobin, and MCH they are a bit on the low side, but not too much, and my RDW % is a bit on the high side, but again not significantly IMHO.

The ONLY one that is really out of whack is my Estradiol.

[GFA]

My nipples were getting tender at ~50 e2 (range is 7-42 or there abouts, dont have lab work in front of me). I havent done follow up BW yet (will do in a few weeks) but I started taking ldex 2x a week .25 mg on injection day (sun) then again on wed (supposedly peak time 76 hrs post injection).

Nips are no longer tender.

I am also overweight so hopefully when I trim down another 20 lbs I might be able to stop the ldex. Im around 200lbs now, want to get to 180.

[bass]

killer, the negative feeling you're getting is most likely from elevated e2, as you ponied out your nipples are sore so thats a good indication you need to lower your e2. i am not familiar with these ranges, but next time you do e2 rest make sure its ultra sensitive or regular for men estradiol is fine too.

anyway, like Vette said the good news is you can lower your e2 fairly quick, you're not too high so go very easy on the AI, if you're using adex or liquidex make sure you don't take more than 1/2 mg per week, of course split that into two doses.

you are doing blood work way too soon from one test to the next, you need at least 4-6 weeks to let the hormones stabilize. also you are fairly new to TRT so it'll take time for your body to get used to the extra testosterone for your e2 to normalize and hopefully you wont need AI at that point.

[killergoalie]

Awesome, thanks GFA!

Best of luck with your weight loss...you'll reach your goal soon! Congrats!

I believe that an E2 level of 184 pmol/L from a range of <150 pmol/L converts to a level of 50.1 pg/ml from a range of <41 pg/ml.
(Why every country can't just use the same units, and ranges I don't know...would make things so much easier!!)

[killergoalie]

Thanks, Bass! (and Vetteman)

Very much appreciated.

Unfortunately we only have one Estradiol test available here. I phoned a labcorp office in Bellingham, and the price there for the sensitive assay for males Estradiol test is $229.00 (probably plus tax).

My endo wants me to get weekly BW for some reason. (For Bioavailable testosterone but our medical plan won't pay for it unless the total testosterone level is between 4.0 and 10.0 nmol/L, so all the lab will do is the test for total testosterone.)

I see him again on June 21st for my semi-annual Diabetes check up, so he gave me a BW requisition order for my A1c, as well as Bioavailable testosterone, Albumin, and Estradiol. So for that BW I may in fact PAY for the Bioavailable testosterone test to FINALLY see what my level of Free testosterone is.

[Oldhighlander]

Killer I understand your frustrations.I am in the same boat.I startedin September of 2011 so Im not real far into it myself .Our numbers are pretty close.I am at 649 Total T at a range of 890 and my E was 59 at a range of 46 I believe.I am trying L Carnitine ,zinc and fish oil first and see if it lowers my E.I am also going to inject twice a week and see if that helps.If I get no result then AI here I come.Oh yeah I to am waiting for that feeling of well being and energy too.Good luck Bro.

[kelkel]

May as well get SHBG and DHT while your at it.

[ecdysone]

Your E2 at 50 is not really that bad, if you use an AI I strongly agree with the advice you've been offerred: use 0.5 mg/week and see how it goes. Isn't really important when you take it, just spread it out during the week.

Would be nice to get your total test up to 700+ which would mitigate the effect of E2.

[AnabolicBoy1981]

I see...

Looks like you need to lose some weight.

If it were me.....i'd temporailly take letro at a max dose and taper it down as your losing weight, then switch to adex. But id keep an eye on lipid panels

[bass]

I see...

Looks like you need to lose some weight.

If it were me.....i'd temporailly take letro at a max dose and taper it down as your losing weight, then switch to adex. But id keep an eye on lipid panels

letro has some nasty sides, i wouldn't advice it at this point, good diet and exercise should be enough.

[killergoalie]

Thanks again everyone for your much appreciated suggestions, and advice.

I am taking zinc...50mg per day.

Will be starting a multivitamin as well.

My diet really is pretty good...(hey we all need a "cheat day" every once in a while).

As far as exercise goes...yeah as I've said, I would love to...I just can't get the energy to do it. So yeah, losing weight would be great, and I AM going to lose the weight (at least 120 lbs!!) but by the time that happens, it's not going to help my E2 levels NOW!! Which is why I'm considering an A.I.

Which if I do take one, it will be at a low dose of .5 mg per week in 2 divided doses. If I wasn't feeling so tired, lethargic, and depressed all the time, AND didn't have the sore nipples, I probably wouldn't even consider it. But I can't keep on feeling like this!

My total test should rise up over 700 this week hopefully.

I believe that SHBG will be part of the bioavailable testosterone test I'll be getting in early June, and I might also ask them to test my DHT as well.

I can't state enough how much this board, and it's knowledgeable members have helped me along my early journey of TRT, and once again I thank everyone who has.

Now it's time for my next SubQ test-cyp injection.

[kelkel]

Good luck. Keep us posted on THIS thread please.

[killergoalie]

Thanks, kelkel. Will do. (And don't worry, I won't start another thread to do so. lol )

[killergoalie]

Just got my latest total testosterone levels , as per my Dr.s weekly test request.

Total Testosterone : 21.6 nmol/L from a range of 8.4 - 28.7 nmol/L. Converted: Total Test: 622.5 ng/dl from a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl.

So slowly it's getting up there.

A friend of mine owns a supplement store, and also trains, and competed in natural bodybuilding events, and I was talking to him about A.I.s I told him I was considering Arimidex /Anastrozole (in pill or liquid form), and he said I could try it of course, but he said that a lot of his clients who use testosterone use a product called Anti-A by SD Pharmaceuticals with excellent results for keeping estrogen levels in check, or even lowering them, so he gave me a bottle to try for one month to see how it works. So I took the bottle, and I'll see how it works.

Hey it didn't cost me anything, and I have an appointment to see my Endo on June 21st, and have a requisition for bloodwork for Estradiol, BioAvailable testosterone, SHBG, Albumin, and A1c, which I'll get done in early June, so I'll know how well the Anti-A worked...or didn't.

Of course they claim that it's been clinically proven to reduce estrogen levels by as much as 63%...don't they all? LOL, but it didn't cost my anything, so we'll see.

[killergoalie]

Brief update.

I've been taking the OTC anti-aromatase product for nearly 2 weeks now. Haven't retested my Estradiol levels since, but I've noticed that the soreness in my nipples has decreased substantially. (Not entirely mind you, but rather significantly.) However I'm still experiencing severe lack of energy, I'm still always tired no matter how much sleep I get...in fact I'm yawning as I'm typing this. (At 2:35 P.M.) So I don't know WTF is going on.

Got my weekly BW done for my total testosterone level today. It's gone up, but not as much as I would have liked. My last test was 12 days ago, and those results were:

Total Testosterone : 21.6 nmol/L from a range of 8.4 - 28.7 nmol/L. Converted: Total Test : 622.5 ng/dl from a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl.

Todays results:

Total Testosterone: 23.2 nmol/L from a range of 8.4 - 28.7 nmol/L. Converted: Total Test: 668.5 ng/dl from a range of 242 - 827 ng/dl.

I honestly thought that my total test would have gone up quite a bit more over a period of 12 days, esp since I'm using a supposed proven anti aromatase, which hopefully is lowering my E2 levels. (Will be getting tested for estradiol in a few weeks.)

I just wish I wouldn't still feel so damn tired all the time! I really do want to start exercising again, but I just don't have the energy to!

[JohnnyVegas]

I am interested to see how your E2 turns out. I find it hard to believe an OTC product actually works...but now we will actually get to see some test results!

[killergoalie]

Thanks, Johnny.

Yeah I'm rather skeptical myself, but since it was free, I thought I'd give it a try. (My funds are rather limited.)

Here is the product in question: No links to supplement stores please

[JohnnyVegas]

Yeah I'm rather skeptical myself, but since it was free, I thought I'd give it a try. (My funds are rather limited.)

Liquidex from AR-R isn't super expensive. And 30ml lasts months.

[killergoalie]

Liquidex from AR-R isn't super expensive. And 30ml lasts months.

Yeah, I was thinking about going that route, or even a similar product from a local source (From Victoria, B.C. since I live in Vancouver, B.C.) but thought I'd try the OTC product first to limit my use of "prescription" drugs.

But if my E2 levels haven't gone done substantially, or even if they have, I'm thinking I still might go the liquidex route anyway. As you say, 30ml lasts months, so it is still the best way to go financially. Because even if the OTC does seem to work, once I stop using it, my E2 will likely begin going back up again. And I don't think my friend will keep giving me free bottles of Anti-A.

[oldguy47]

Liquidex from AR-R isn't super expensive. And 30ml lasts months.

Would this work for errect nipples. Have no growth at all, just nipples staying erect a lot more often than normal.