Test Level Rapidly Increasing

**bowers32** · 06-04-2012, 02:16 PM

Though I am familiar with a couple of you guys (vette and some others), Let me give you a little history.

50 years old. Started TRT about a year and a half ago when test got down to the 300 level. Stayed on test CYP 210 mg a week for about 12 weeks and got my test levels up to arund 800 started having all kinds of problems, high BP, headaches, insomina etc... just horrible. So the doc suggested I stop the TRT to see if we could figure out what was causing the problems. Six months later, everything smoothed out and I started again.. this time with a slightly higher test level of around 500. Went on a very conservative protocaol... 100mg of test cyp, some HCG and Anti-E... 6 weeks later, my test levels were over 2000 !!!!! I felt fine, none of the previous problems came back.. but... my PSA went through the roof and I had a case of BPH (inflamed prostate).

So stopped trt again and of course my test levels crashed. Now the weird thing is that when the levels crashed, I really didn't feel that bad. Took some months off, got my PSA back to normal.

So just stareted back on TRT, with 200mg every 5 days, 500iu HCG 2x and some anti-E..... just test levels last week and my test levels jumped all the way up to 1400 !!! My PSA jumped some but not in the high range and my estrogen level doubled to 92.

So....is my body just dealing with the test levels differently, cause I read this Board a lot and I don't see other people having this issue. So just curious why my body would react so aggressivley to a moderate does of test.

Now some vets I respect tell me that some people just go to those high levels to get to a stable feeling place where others might do it at 1200 levels of test.

I respect TRT and what it is for, I am not interested in a cycle or anything like that, so it worries me that can get to those extreme levels of test so quickly.

In other words I can't get to a good sustainable level of 1000-1200... I blow right past that.

In some research I have done, extremely high levels of test can in fact cause some issues with the prostate so that explains why I had the BPH last time around.

Anyway, I will feel good... sleep is good, not headaches... body feels good... so I may stretch the days between injections from 5 to 7 days and see if that will lower the levels a bit.

Welcome any thoughts, comments or suggestions from you guys.

**kelkel** · 06-04-2012, 03:03 PM

Hi Bowers. Very interesting scenario. So to get this straight, when you started back the second time your natural level was at 500? Without any PCT to restart your system? If at 500 I would have thought an astute doc would have evaluated your complete BW and taken steps to increase your T without TRT at that point. When was your BW pulled relative to your injection? 5-6 days after? It would be great to see complete BW with ranges, especially free T, shbg and E2, otherwise we're kind of throwing darts. Curious if your E is low as well as your shbg. How much AI by the way?

Regarding your psa spike, are you aware that ejaculation within a couple days of your BW will show a temporary increase in that level. Another point here would be to start on a program of Cialis for daily use as it is proven to help with BPH. Read this and show it to your doc:

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsro.../ucm274642.htm

Also, 200mg or so a week is a high end TRT dosage. How was that number chosen to start? The proper way is to start low and titrate up as needed based on BW. Then add other compounds (AI, HCG ) one at a time so adjustments can be made based on the effects they will have. These compounds need time to settle in and so your body can find homeostasis. Also, I'd say your hcg could probably be lowered a bit, IMO.

**ecdysone** · 06-04-2012, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by bowers32

So just stareted back on TRT, with 200mg every 5 days, 500iu HCG 2x and some anti-E..... just test levels last week and my test levels jumped all the way up to 1400 !!! My PSA jumped some but not in the high range and my estrogen level doubled to 92.

Unless I'm not reading this correctly, it's really no mystery: you are using 2X too much of everything! Based on your test levels, you need 120mg & ≤500iu HCG per week.

btw, 1000-1200 may not be a good sustainable level, if you're talking TRT, anything over 750 is great and best for the long haul.

**bowers32** · 06-05-2012, 11:35 AM

Thanks for the response... yea I realize I didn't give some info to give a complete picture.. sorry about that. I am a little surprised that 200mg e5d is considered high.... I thought it was about average. But to your point, yes we have made the decision to lower that way down and see what happens.

Yes I do know that ejaculation will raise PSA and yes I am in fact on the daily Cialis.... I recommend it highly.

**kelkel** · 06-05-2012, 12:06 PM

Outstanding. Surprisingly not many people know that about PSA or cialis. Great!

**steroid.com 1** · 06-05-2012, 02:40 PM

If your PSA jumped to very high elevated levels when your serum levels increased it would be justification for an immediate Prostate biopsy.

It's well understood that exogenous Testosterone will elevate PSA serum levels a bit but not to the levels you indicated. And just because it dropped when your Test serum levels dropped doesn't mean there could be a pathological explanation.

You may/should have a discussion with your Physician on this subject. Prostate cancer can and does stay off the "PSA radar screen" for a lot of men and in fact it's now being dismissed as a diagnostic test by some physicians.

That being said, the big spike you experienced could be a sign so please give it some consideration.

I also agree completely with ecd; way too much much of everything and way to many starts and stops.

The best protocols starts with one variable at a time than...measure...monitor...adjust...in small doses and than add in a new variable.

While 1000 - 1200 total may seem on the higher end of the optimal reference range we should be more interested in bio-available and/or free T at this point as a marker.

**Bonaparte** · 06-05-2012, 04:11 PM

I would try 100mg/week with just a low dose of Adex and see what happens. I don't see why you'd need HCG regularly, since you're already 50 and hopefully not trying to have more kids.

The reason your levels get so high is because you are taking too much test, and you're stacking it with 2 other drugs that boost test levels.

**Far from massive** · 06-05-2012, 04:22 PM

Agree 100% with Bonaparte, this is exactly what I was thinking.

Its baffling he would see your test score skyrocket take you off completly and then restart at a slightly higher dose with an AI and HCG ? Neither the AI or the HCG would be likely to greatly reduce your test scores and could further complicate diagnosis.

It sounds like after your first visit he may have done a little reading and or talked to colleages and found out that both (an AI and HCG) are usually a good idea. Though in this case only serve to complicate the diagnosis.

FFM

**steroid.com 1** · 06-05-2012, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

I would try 100mg/week with just a low dose of Adex and see what happens. I don't see why you'd need HCG regularly, since you're already 50 and hopefully not trying to have more kids.

Respectively disagree on that statement...see the sticky here on why men need HCG ...much more than fertility unfortunately.

**Vettester** · 06-05-2012, 05:14 PM

Bowers, good to see you again. I agree with backing everything down. Also, I remember when you had way too much AI going in your protocol, which played havoc with you for awhile. Hopefully you're not taking nearly as much? Speaking of that, how does your E2 look, and what is your AI protocol? Also, if you have any other labs (free, bio, dhea, shbg, thyroids, etc.), it would help us see the whole picture.