Any experience with natural aromatase inhibitors?

[Renholder]

Hello all,

After 5 weeks on HCG and the last 2 weeks on Nebido (from week 3), I still do not feel any positive benefits from elevated testosterone . I am getting new blood work this week to see if my E2 is still elevated. I hope that my doctor will prescribe arimidex or aromasin , but I am not quite sure he will.

In that case, I seem to be limited to natural AIs sold over the counter.

I have started using high dozes of zinc, since I have learned that it can work as a natural AI. Being on the low end on my prior blood work, I started with 100 mg per day for one week, but now reduced to 50 mg. No effects yet, but I will continue using 50 mg.

There are two popular products that I`ve heard of lately that seem promising: PES ERASE and Driven Sports Triazole.

Any experience with these?

Then I`ve heard of the herb chrysin, but there seems to be mixed reports on this one.

Any advice or experience?

Regards,

Renholder

[Bill_boy2005]

If your in the US you can order from the site sponsor and have it in a few days. The product is liquidex.

[steroid.com 1]

Why are you self medicating with OTC products and trying to control E2 when you don't even know what your levels are?

You could end up throwing everything off (like other serum levels) and doing more harm than good.

OTC AI's (if you want to call them that) are hit and miss; some men respond and some men over respond and some don't get any response.

They are not regulated and controlling dosage can be a challenge.

I'd stop what you're doing and wait for BW.

BTW, mono hCG therapies are largely ineffective for many men and it takes time.

Five weeks is okay to evaluate BW but you might not feel or see anything for a few months...and that's if the mono therapy works.

BTW, high doses are Zinc can be toxic and do harm...do some research...and make sure you are getting copper in your multi as well.

[HRTstudent]

Hello all,

After 5 weeks on HCG and the last 2 weeks on Nebido (from week 3), I still do not feel any positive benefits from elevated testosterone . I am getting new blood work this week to see if my E2 is still elevated. I hope that my doctor will prescribe arimidex or aromasin , but I am not quite sure he will.

In that case, I seem to be limited to natural AIs sold over the counter.

I have started using high dozes of zinc, since I have learned that it can work as a natural AI. Being on the low end on my prior blood work, I started with 100 mg per day for one week, but now reduced to 50 mg. No effects yet, but I will continue using 50 mg.

There are two popular products that I`ve heard of lately that seem promising: PES ERASE and Driven Sports Triazole.

Any experience with these?

Then I`ve heard of the herb chrysin, but there seems to be mixed reports on this one.

Any advice or experience?

Regards,

Renholder

this is my personal opinion on the matter...

I wouldn't start HCG when you start TRT. For some men hcg makes things WORSE! also, if you do feel good, how do you know what's working between T and HCG? You could feel better in spite of or because the HCG, but you don't know. Dr Crisler adds in HCG after getting T correct as well. It makes sense to me.

HCG will also elevate your E2.

With regard to the estradiol control, I would opt for the natural route. I would absolutely avoid supplements such as triazole or other things that are specifically produced for people who commonly are lookign for an ergogenic benefit. this is a bad bad bad long term solution. you will be changing medications frequently because these companies rarely last more than a few years and often have to change their drugs because of laws and new regulations. (and I promise you if you see the quality control of most supplement companies you will think twice about it. barely any of these companies have any quality control and many of them order straight from china and never think twice to get a COA.) terrible idea for what is presumably a long term or lifelong HRT.

I would also opt for an herbal treatment if it worked for me. only way to find out is to do it. many people overtreat their estradiol with powerful drugs like anastrozole, so doesn't it make sense to try an herbal if it could work for you? I would prefer to be on an herb for 10 years than anastrozole, IF IT worked for me.

some options for more "natural" or herbal estradiol control include:
chrysin, specifically with piperine (tradename bioperine)
DIM, helps eliminate estrogens
grapeseed extract

I currently have all 3 of these in my pantry and plan to use them to see if it can control my symptoms and never have to take anastrozole, aromasin, or whatever. I personally feel much better about the long term health implications of something like grapeseed extract compared to Rx AI's. We have no long term studies on the safety of either of these drugs in men so really this is your personal call.

[steroid.com 1]

I wouldn't start HCG when you start TRT.
Please explain this statement to me. Once he starts exogenous Testosterone he will be go into HPTA suppression and there is no arguing that. hCG will keep his HPTA intact...why would you say not to start with it when he starts his TRT???

For some men hcg makes things WORSE!
Please explain.

HCG will also elevate your E2.
Not true at all when dosed correctly. Statements like this MUST be clarified. E2 is effected when large doses are used over time. While everyone is different most men will see no impact on E2 when hCG is dosed correctly.

Some questions above HRT.

[HRTstudent]

Please explain this statement to me. Once he starts exogenous Testosterone he will be go into HPTA suppression and there is no arguing that. hCG will keep his HPTA intact...why would you say not to start with it when he starts his TRT???

yes he will be suppressed, but the mystery of HCG is that it does not make everyone feel better. Dr Crisler says this as well. and if you read a lot of forums on this stuff you will hear about a 50-50 mix of people who benefited or not from HCG. my newest doc also says he doesn't even use HCG anymore because of the sub-par results on average. so that's why I would say don't start it right away - you don't know if it's helping or hurting. also, early on in TRT you are not so profoundly suppressed so how much would it really hurt if you didn't use HCG for a few months to half a year while you are restoring T levels?

HCG will also elevate your E2.
Not true at all when dosed correctly. Statements like this MUST be clarified. E2 is effected when large doses are used over time. While everyone is different most men will see no impact on E2 when hCG is dosed correctly.

well, I'm not a clinician, but what you're saying doesn't really add up to what I've read and heard from physicians and from a biological perspective. when you use HCG you are basically creating numerous hormones that can readily convert to estradiol and, unless you aggressively use AI's, you should expect a rise in estradiol. without HCG, it's just testosterone converting to estradiol, but with hcg it's now all the testosterone you have plus these other earlier intermediate hormones. very logical to presume some of this is going to estradiol, which it does.

I'm not saying that HCG will make your estradiol uncontrollably high, but a rise is reasonable and most likely expected.

[Renholder]

gdevine,

I am not self medicating with OTC products, but I am doing research such that I`m prepared if my doctor does not prescribe me one of the most common AIs.

I already know that my E2 levels are elevated from BW. Current BW will tell me if my levels are still elevated. If they are, I think trying an AI is worth a shot.

But thanks for the input on OTC AIs. It seems like arimidex or aromasin may be my best bet.

Why are you self medicating with OTC products and trying to control E2 when you don't even know what your levels are?

You could end up throwing everything off (like other serum levels) and doing more harm than good.

OTC AI's (if you want to call them that) are hit and miss; some men respond and some men over respond and some don't get any response.

They are not regulated and controlling dosage can be a challenge.

I'd stop what you're doing and wait for BW.

BTW, mono hCG therapies are largely ineffective for many men and it takes time.

Five weeks is okay to evaluate BW but you might not feel or see anything for a few months...and that's if the mono therapy works.

BTW, high doses are Zinc can be toxic and do harm...do some research...and make sure you are getting copper in your multi as well.

[Oldhighlander]

I tried L-carnitine and zinc and after 6 weeks and new blood work my E actually went up.But my T went up as well.Went to injecting twice a week and got a nice result for my T but now it looks like an AI for me as well.

[Renholder]

HRTstudent,

Thank you for the input and especially considering the OTC products I mentioned. I will look into those other natural products you mentioned, but it seems like arimidex and aromasin is commonly accepted as safe for controlling E2? I think you`re the first one I`ve heard who are that negative to the most commonly prescribed AIs.

I do know for sure that HCG increased my E2 on mono with 500 IE 3X weekly, but I`m now only using 200 IU 3X weekly.

Don`t quote me on this, but I`ve heard that Crisler now actually starts HCG from day one, much because fine tuning the proper dosage both on testosterone and HCG is tougher when HCG is added to the mix later on and that there is not really any reason to wait.

Appreciate your input.

Thanks,

Renholder

this is my personal opinion on the matter...

I wouldn't start HCG when you start TRT. For some men hcg makes things WORSE! also, if you do feel good, how do you know what's working between T and HCG? You could feel better in spite of or because the HCG, but you don't know. Dr Crisler adds in HCG after getting T correct as well. It makes sense to me.

HCG will also elevate your E2.

With regard to the estradiol control, I would opt for the natural route. I would absolutely avoid supplements such as triazole or other things that are specifically produced for people who commonly are lookign for an ergogenic benefit. this is a bad bad bad long term solution. you will be changing medications frequently because these companies rarely last more than a few years and often have to change their drugs because of laws and new regulations. (and I promise you if you see the quality control of most supplement companies you will think twice about it. barely any of these companies have any quality control and many of them order straight from china and never think twice to get a COA.) terrible idea for what is presumably a long term or lifelong HRT.

I would also opt for an herbal treatment if it worked for me. only way to find out is to do it. many people overtreat their estradiol with powerful drugs like anastrozole, so doesn't it make sense to try an herbal if it could work for you? I would prefer to be on an herb for 10 years than anastrozole, IF IT worked for me.

some options for more "natural" or herbal estradiol control include:
chrysin, specifically with piperine (tradename bioperine)
DIM, helps eliminate estrogens
grapeseed extract

I currently have all 3 of these in my pantry and plan to use them to see if it can control my symptoms and never have to take anastrozole, aromasin, or whatever. I personally feel much better about the long term health implications of something like grapeseed extract compared to Rx AI's. We have no long term studies on the safety of either of these drugs in men so really this is your personal call.

[HRTstudent]

you're welcome, glad to help and share my experiences to help you and all of us.

Thank you for the input and especially considering the OTC products I mentioned. I will look into those other natural products you mentioned, but it seems like arimidex and aromasin is commonly accepted as safe for controlling E2? I think you`re the first one I`ve heard who are that negative to the most commonly prescribed AIs.

I believe most would definitely say that anastrozole is regarded as safe in the short term. however, we have 0 long term studies about what happens when we take this drug for 3 years, 5 years, 10, 20... what happens if you are on anastrozole for 30 years?

if you start on trt at 40, you have, on average, around 35 more years left to live. absolutely nobody can tell you what are the implications of taking anastrozole for that long. this is why medicine is a practice and your doctor probably leaves it up to you to make the final call. they will give you recommendations, but really a good doctor makes decisions with you.

I'm not totally down on anastrozole - it works. but for me personally, I would rather spend years on, say, chrysin or grapeseed extract IF it works for me. the only way to find that out is to try it. call it trial and error if you like - your doctor will call it "clinical judgment" . But you need to decide what you want to do and what your goals are with HRT.

[HRTstudent]

I also should point out I mention chrysin and grapeseed extract and DIM simply because there is some anecdotal and some scientific evidence to support it. maybe in a few years we will find out they suck, but good luck to us, because I just don't foresee much money going into herb research where big pharma stands to profit nothing.

[steroid.com 1]

yes he will be suppressed, but the mystery of HCG is that it does not make everyone feel better. Dr Crisler says this as well. and if you read a lot of forums on this stuff you will hear about a 50-50 mix of people who benefited or not from HCG. my newest doc also says he doesn't even use HCG anymore because of the sub-par results on average. so that's why I would say don't start it right away - you don't know if it's helping or hurting. also, early on in TRT you are not so profoundly suppressed so how much would it really hurt if you didn't use HCG for a few months to half a year while you are restoring T levels?

Well, I hold a different position than you on these issues HRT and won't hijack this thread with deep debate. That being said, the use of exogenous Testosterone causes a self induced organ shutdown...namely the testes...fact. The use of hCG (LH Analog) prevents this from happening...fact. Nuff said from my point of view.


well, I'm not a clinician, but what you're saying doesn't really add up to what I've read and heard from physicians and from a biological perspective. when you use HCG you are basically creating numerous hormones that can readily convert to estradiol and, unless you aggressively use AI's, you should expect a rise in estradiol. without HCG, it's just testosterone converting to estradiol, but with hcg it's now all the testosterone you have plus these other earlier intermediate hormones. very logical to presume some of this is going to estradiol, which it does.

Hell, any supplemented hormone can cause E2 elevation that's nothing new whatsoever. Pregnenolone and DHEA supplementation can do the same. Testosterone does it more than any other hormone. Frequent low dose use of hCG has clinically shown not to have a significant impact on E2 as opposed to higher doses like >500iu daily. Think of it along the lines of men who use daily gel/cream. Their doses are so low each day the use of an AI is almost never heard of...same scenario

IMO, hCG is a wonderful peptide that has so many health beneficial benefits for men that it should, and typically is, a standard component of a well balanced TRT protocol.

I'm not saying that HCG will make your estradiol uncontrollably high, but a rise is reasonable and most likely expected.

Above.

[kelkel]

Points / counter-points as shown above is exactly what make this forum such a tremendous resource for all its members, IMO!

[HRTstudent]

gdevine, I agree with you and I am not saiyng that exogenous Testosterone will not shut our testes down. What I am saying is that the benefits of taking HCG for overall quality of personal improvement and well-being are very mixed. Some people feel that hcg was a good addition but some say it was bad. So that's the magic of it, and that's why we probably don't have people raving about how great HCG is in similar numbers to those who are on TRT. Again though, I agree the HCG will prevent the testes from being totally dormant.

[Renholder]

Tadalafil functioning as an AI?

Testosterone :estradiol ratio changes associated with long-term tadalafil administration: a pilot study.

Greco EA, Pili M, Bruzziches R, Corona G, Spera G,Aversa A.

Internal Medicine, Department of Medical Pathophysiology, University of Roma La Sapienza, Rome, Italy.
INTRODUCTION: It has been reported that lack of sexual activity due to erectile dysfunction (ED) may be associated with testosterone (T) decline. AIM: To investigate whether the known changes in sex hormones associated with resumption of sexual activity are sustained in the long term. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Primary endpoints were variations from baseline of steroid hormones: total T, free T (f T), and estradiol (E). Secondary endpoints were variations of erectile function domain scores at International Index of Erectile Function-5 (IIEF-5). METHODS: In an open-label fashion, 20 patients (mean age 54.8 +/- 8.4 years) received tadalafil 10-20 mg on demand for 12 months. Exclusion criteria were those reported for phosphodiesterase inhibitors, including hypogonadism and hyperprolactinemia. RESULTS: Tadalafil assumption was safe and well tolerated (overall adverse effects in 15% of patients) and none discontinued medication. A significant decrease in E levels occurred at the end of the study (from 19.9 +/- 9.6 to 16.6 +/- 8.1 ng/dL, P = 0.042 vs. baseline), with parallel increase in the T:E ratio (26.3 +/- 15.3 to 32.6 +/- 17.7, P = 0.05), whereas no changes in T and f T serum levels were observed, respectively (411.4 +/- 131.4 to 434.2 +/- 177.1 ng/dL and 47.7 +/- 15.3 to 49.9 +/- 19.1 pmol/L, not significant). Interestingly, nonparametric subgroup analysis for related samples revealed that E decrease was detectable only in lean (N = 14) but not in obese (N = 6, body mass index > 27.5 kg/m2) subjects (17.8 +/- 10.1 vs. 13.5 +/- 6.8, P < 0.05). A net increase in IIEF-5 scores was observed at the endpoint (13.7 +/- 5.9 vs. 25.7 +/- 2.9, P < 0.0001).

CONCLUSIONS: Sustained improvement in sexual function after 12 months of tadalafil administration is associated with increased T:E ratio mainly related to reduction of E levels. We hypothesize that androgen-estrogen cross-talk and possible inhibition of aromatase activity during chronic exposure to tadalafil might have a role in the regulation of erectile function.
PMID: 16839328 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[HRTstudent]

very interesting lol!

Of note as well is that the positive estradiol changes were only in the lean group. One more "reason" to lose fat if you have estradiol problems!

[steroid.com 1]

Renholder, you win the prize today!

What a find!!!

Just another reason why men should take a daily low dose Tadalafil and in this study they tested at 10mg to 20mg daily as opposed to the suggested dose here in the states for daily of 5mg.

BTW, I take 10mg per day and split it up to 5mg every 12 hours.

Need to get deeper into this study.

Thanks man!

gd

[kelkel]

^^Agree above 2. Nice find Ren! Keep it up! Matter of fact I also do twice a day as well and it IS covered by insurance.

[Renholder]

I`m glad you liked it. I have seen some other positive studies as well. Maybe you fine gentleman would like to comment on my latest BW in my other thread in the forums?

I have high cortisol on the latest tests and unfortunately, I`ve found that Cialis increases cortisol, so maybe it`s not a good idea for me to use it. I`ve been feeling more beat up in the body today than in a long time, so I wonder if that may be why.