NEW BLOODWORK: E2 will u ever get right?? :)

[--->>405<<---]

well here it is. they send it in a pdf and i cant copy and paste and its a real pain in the butt!

wbc 9.5 (4.0-10.5)
rbc 4.89 (4.14-5.80)
hemoglobin 15.0 (12.6-17.7)
hematocrit 45.9 (37.5-51.0)
mcv 94 (79-97)
mch 30.7 (26.6-33.0)
mchc 32.7 (31.5-35.7)
rdw 13.1 (12.3-15.4)
platelets 264 (140-415)
neutrophils 66 (40-74)
lymphs 26 (14-46)
monocytes 7 (4-13)
Eos 1 (0-7)
basos 0 (0-3)
neutrophils (absolute) 6.2 (1.8-7.8)
lymphs (absolute) 2.5 (0.7-4.5)
monocytes (absolute) 0.7 (0.1-1.0)
eos (absolute) 0.1 (0.0-0.4)
baso (absolute) 0.0 (0.0-0.2)
immature granulocytes 0 (0-2)
immature grans (abs) 0.0 (0.0-0.1)

tell u what im just gonna post the high and low stuff..

Comp. Metabolic Panel

BUN 23 (6-20) HIGH
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 22 (8-19) HIGH
PSA 0.5 (0.0-4.0) figd id post this too

total test: 1034 (348-1197)
free test: 30.6 (8.7-25.6) HIGH

DHEA- Sulfate (this one im baffled by and apparently the doc is too??) 109.4 (88.9-427.0) reason being ive been taking 75mg per day for 2months?? why would it be low? poor product? i get it over the counter from CVS. doc said i can get it compounded at the pharm i get my test from would that be better????

E2 (sensitive) <3 (3-70) LOL guess i better stop the AI huh?? LOW no wonder ive been feeling kinda sluggish huH??

triiodothyronine free serum 3.2 (2.0-4.4)

free t4 1.24 (0.82-1.77)


alright fellas am i gonna make it?

oh and they said i dont need to worry about SHBG because that only affects total test and all we are worried about is free test???? is this correct???

[kelkel]

Is the DHEA Micronized? If not, the majority of it is just not surviving the first pass. WTF is up with you and the E2 roller coaster. I know we've talked about the amounts you and your doc have decided on but damn 405! You've got to figure this out. Nows the time to go slow and do some monthly testing to get a handle on it!

SHBH effects free test as part of TT is in fact free T right! Right now with your TT high there is not much doubt your shbg is low. The quickest way to lower shbg is by raising T levels. As you start to allow your E to raise this will obviously change a bit. And that's fine.

Couple interesting articles for you below:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22420889

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2011/...-Status_01.htm

[--->>405<<---]

hey kel thx for the response!

so the DHEA im taking is not surviving the first pass thru the liver? does it make 2 passes? what do i need to get? i can get a script or whatever i need to get if u can tell me the best DHEA where i wont have to worry about poor absorption. thx dude!

p.s. nice legs! (and im married so dont get any ideas LOL)

[kelkel]

hey kel thx for the response!

so the DHEA im taking is not surviving the first pass thru the liver? does it make 2 passes? what do i need to get? i can get a script or whatever i need to get if u can tell me the best DHEA where i wont have to worry about poor absorption. thx dude!

p.s. nice legs! (and im married so dont get any ideas LOL)

Probably not much of it. Go to lef.com and all of their DHEA is micronized. I use a prescription cream as well (DHEA/Preg/Selegeline) but still run low so I've recently added the micronized product. BW will reveal progress in October for me. I believe GD just did a thread on DHEA, search it up!

Kel

[--->>405<<---]

thx buddy!

BTW every pic i see of u u look lean and vascular as heck! whats the deal man? what r u doing? diet? cardio? lifting? what?

also i have good insurance. what is the cream u get? (if u dont mind)

ill be looking thru GD's thread too

[--->>405<<---]

kel im assuming theyre all micronized?

should i get the one with pregnenolone?

ive been taking 75mg per day what would u recommend i start with these?

[bass]

thx buddy!

BTW every pic i see of u u look lean and vascular as heck! whats the deal man? what r u doing? diet? cardio? lifting? what?

also i have good insurance. what is the cream u get? (if u don't mind)

ill be looking thru GD's thread too

Kel is a retired BB, which means he's been busting balls continuously!

Hey 405, don't remember what your protocol is but if you're on a weekly test shots try to do twice weekly, and minimize your AI. there is a free program to remove the password from the PDF file, once you remove the password then you can copy and paste.

[--->>405<<---]

Kel is a retired BB, which means he's been busting balls continuously!

Hey 405, don't remember what your protocol is but if you're on a weekly test shots try to do twice weekly, and minimize your AI. there is a free program to remove the password from the PDF file, once you remove the password then you can copy and paste.

cool! thats awesome!

i do twice weekly shots

whats the program? i didnt even know it had a password and def dont know where to find it or anything LOL..

[HRTstudent]

That DHEA is either not DHEA or it is DHEA and getting nothing in the blood. Either way, I would drop that product.

There are a lot of Microized DHEA preparations out there... quite a few on amazon and probably cheaper than CVS. Make sure its micronized. LEF seems to be a reputable company but they are slightly more pricey, but I feel comfortable that they are putting in the bottle what's on the label.

Figuring out E2 is a PITA!

[bass]

cool! thats awesome!

i do twice weekly shots

whats the program? i didnt even know it had a password and def dont know where to find it or anything LOL..

Wondershare PDF Password Recover

[--->>405<<---]

Wondershare PDF Password Recover

cool thx

[Vettester]

405, as your body starts to normalize its E2 level, there's a very good chance you're going to experience the estro rebound as it rises. Grab some Nolva to have on hand. Get with kelkel or myself if you need to talk more on the specifics of getting through this process if/when you start experiencing the symptoms. With your serum levels, I would imagine your E2 will start climbing pretty fast, especially if you're adding DHEA & Pregnenolone.

[--->>405<<---]

405, as your body starts to normalize its E2 level, there's a very good chance you're going to experience the estro rebound as it rises. Grab some Nolva to have on hand. Get with kelkel or myself if you need to talk more on the specifics of getting through this process if/when you start experiencing the symptoms. With your serum levels, I would imagine your E2 will start climbing pretty fast, especially if you're adding DHEA & Pregnenolone.

thx vette i def will do. and will get nolva.

have been as low as 7 before and went back up with no probs that i recall (dont know if that matters). this dang E2 thing is a pain man!

on no ai i shoot into the 60's.

on 1mg i was still high as well with 1.5mg (maybe i didnt give it enuff time?)

2mg bottoms me out. weird.. i see yall taking .25 and .5mg and i dont understand why im taking so much..

when u say estro rebound u mean potential gyno onset symptoms? how long before i should get E2 chekd again running no AI? i suppose ill keep this thread running to try and figure out this dosage with yalls help if u dont mind

[HRTstudent]

thx vette i def will do. and will get nolva.

have been as low as 7 before and went back up with no probs that i recall (dont know if that matters). this dang E2 thing is a pain man!

on no ai i shoot into the 60's.

on 1mg i was still high as well with 1.5mg (maybe i didnt give it enuff time?)

2mg bottoms me out. weird.. i see yall taking .25 and .5mg and i dont understand why im taking so much..

when u say estro rebound u mean potential gyno onset symptoms? how long before i should get E2 chekd again running no AI? i suppose ill keep this thread running to try and figure out this dosage with yalls help if u dont mind

We are all different

I'm trying to fine tune my e2... and it looks like I'm going to need around 2-3mg per week or else I get breast growth

[--->>405<<---]

hey kel i ordered some DHEA from life extension magazine should be in in a couple days. am considering paying the membership fee and poss getting all my vitamins from there since i take a bunch every day.

any suggestion where to start DHEA considering it is micronized? i was on 75mg per day but obviously it was an inferior product. maybe drop it down to 50mG?

[--->>405<<---]

ok 50mg it is..

[Vettester]

2mg bottoms me out. weird.. i see yall taking .25 and .5mg and i dont understand why im taking so much..

when u say estro rebound u mean potential gyno onset symptoms? how long before i should get E2 chekd again running no AI? i suppose ill keep this thread running to try and figure out this dosage with yalls help if u dont mind

The trick is finding a good balance on all of this, where you don't see a lot of converting taking place to begin with. If you can achieve that, then the AI thing doesn't become too complicated to get straightened out either. Can't remember your protocol ?), but at a continuous 1,000+ serum level, there's a good chance you're going to be seeing an increase in E2 conversion. It all depends on how your body metabolizes the test, and how much or less is also converting to DHT via 5A-R enzyme.

If it were me, just hypothetically speaking, I would look at backing your protocol off by approx. 30% to 40%, and splitting up your dosage to 2x per week if you're not currently doing that. Keep in mind that adding DHEA will definitely balance some things upstream, but it will provide some further conversion going downstream. So, some of the test you back off from your protocol will also be made up with any additions upstream. Your free test is sitting right at 3%, so that would indicate your SHBG is fairly low, and that puts you at the upper end with most men. IMO, you will start seeing some optimal results if you get your serum level down closer to the 700ng/dl range, which includes seeing more stable E2 scores. The good thing is, if you don't like it, you can always go back to something else ...

Estro rebound can happen when your E2 levels are in the tank, and then they start to climb. When/if it happens, it overloads the receptor sites in the region of the nipples ... It is not fun! A small amount of Nolva, 10mg to 20mg will usually mitigate. Some might need it for a few days, some for a few weeks ...

[--->>405<<---]

^^ excellent post and i appreciate it! lemme ask u this. if i back my test down say 30% which would be from 160mg per week to around 110mg would that have any effect on my ability to maintain/gain muscle/LBM?? if my free test is in the 20's instead of the 30's ??

my protocol is:

80mg test every 3.5days
375iU hcg day before test
AI (who the heck knows)

so to make sure i understand this correctly keeping my total test lower will lessen the probability of conversion which will probably require less AI which in turn should help me level it out easier?

what does the conversion to DHT have to do with it?

as far as E2 going back up id like to note i was as low as 7 before ans it went up to 53(ish) and i never had any probs with the nips. does that mean i prob wont this time too? meaning im not gyno prone?

[kelkel]

405 sorry I'm jumping back into this thread late but I was away most of the weekend. For DHEA 50mg of the proper product would be just fine. I'd say the same for Preg too. The topical prescription cream I use, as does GD, is balanced at DHEA/PREG/Selegiline 50/50/3mg. It's a compounded product but is still not getting my DHEA where I want it so as stated I added the micronized at 50mg per day. We'll see in October if it makes a difference for me. Read the below on DHEA:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ou+should+know

Now, regarding lowering T dosage a bit as Vette said is a good idea here for the reasons he stated. I don't think you will see your Free T take that much of a hit, but since you'll be getting frequent BW to get your E in line you can monitor it as well. Regarding the rebound Vette explained you are very lucky you don't have nip issues. Any spike in my levels and I instantly feel it. Just re-boot very slow with your E and make small adjustments. Test monthly.

Vette's reference to DHT conversion is this: Test does several things in the body. First and foremost it converts to DHT via 5AR everywhere in the body except skeletal muscle. What little bit that actually makes it into the muscle is basically killed off by another enzyme. DHT is a natural estrogen blocker on 3 different levels. So, more DHT = less E. It also converts to estrogen as you well know. Then a little bit is left behind for us to use as free T.

Regarding your question about me and vascularity, etc. I eat clean but no diet. Never do cardio, ever (sorry.) Just intense lifting over many years.

kel

[Vettester]

405, I can't really say anything more about the DHT conversion than what you just read with Kelkel's post. Like he said, more DHT conversion will lead to less E2 conversion. If you look at a hormonal reference chart, you can see that after testosterone , the pathways split from 5A-R to the various estrogens (E1, E2, & E3).

Again, DHEA (and pregnenolone) are upstream precursors to testosterone & E2. You could probably get 50 opinions on here with what to do on your protocol, keeping in mind I'm just one of them. However, if I were in the same exact shoes, and of course based on what my doctor would more than likely have me do, I would more than likely go down to 50mg x 2/wk on the test, and lower your HCG to 250iu x 2/wk. Again, you can always adjust when/if you want.

As far as lean mass goes, just keep the diet clean and get these other variables dialed in first. The body will be able to do a much better overall job with growing and rebuilding if it's not having to constantly adapt to the imbalances of hormones and other factors. Once you get everything dialed in and you understand what's needed to achieve homeostasis, you can always run a 10 to 12 week blast, and if desired you can stack a compound like Deca to see even better results.

I didn't quite understand your E2 question at the end of your last paragraph? However, I'm sure it was just a case of too much conversion due to the increased serum level.

On the time frame, I'd look at another 4 weeks to run labs again. It might take a few sessions like this for a few months til you get a handle on it. You don't necessarily need the whole gamut of panels, but the basic test, E2, and the other ones you're focusing on will be needed.

Lastly, your kidney function is a little elevated. Are you supplementing creatine, or presume you're taking in quite a bit of protein? Just keep lots of hydration going.

[SEOINAGE]

Haven't been on varying doses enough to comment too much about this. But when i was eating adequately and lowered my dose I was still making progress strength wise and size, it didn't have the effect I thought it was, progress still moved smoothly, but I eventually bumped dose back up cause I wasn't feeling too great overall, could be I wasn't on the lower dose long enough to have it effect me in the gym, of course a month at a different dose then back to the higher dose should take several weeks to get feeling good again, but my gains were consistent throughout all the way up until my diet changed.

[--->>405<<---]

hey guys thx for the responses! sorry its taken me so long to get back but ive been busy as heck! there is a lot to consider here. i must say i dont like the idea of lowering my test dose but i recognize the effect it could have and i respect u guys' opinions and knowledge on the subject which i admit far exceeds my own

i am going to be talking to my doctor about this possibility of lowering the dose of test.

curious if yall think my levels are too high for long-term safety?? free test and total test..

i am also wondering what game plan to come up with for dialing in my AI?? currently im taking no AI. if i wait a month (which i plan on doing) i have no idea where my level is gonna be until the end of the month. what do i do if its high? start at a low dose and just deal with high E2 for several months while slowly increasing dosage?

how long should i give a change in dosage before retesting??

this is a pain in the butt!

[SEOINAGE]

you've done 3 mg ai a week, and 2 mg a week? I thought you did a dose that was too low as well. At 200 mg a week test with 1 mg ai I had an e2 level of 28, and mood was a little better than e2 level of 42 without the 1 mg ai. I would do the month without and if it's high start the ai at a dose you think will work 1 mg or just .5mg, split it up so you take twice a week, and just go for a while. have you ever had e2 scores upwards of 60-100? Cause I'm thinking more than likely it won't be a problem to go without the ai, short term not likely to hurt you, and not likely your scores will go up that high.

[Brohim]

I would try lowering your test dose brother. If you are testing at 1,000 the day of the draw you are over the range most day's. This should help with Estrogen. You could play with it and see how it goes....you have plenty of time.

You will still be close to top range of test, especially since you are injecting every 3.5 day's so your progress in the gym will not be hurt at all. But it could make you feel better at a lower dose. Try 40mg x2 or 50mg x 2 and see how you fair.

[--->>405<<---]

hey guys im back. havent done anything as of yet except stop my AI completely. i have considerd reducing my dose of test but havent done so yet. im hoping i can keep test where its at and dial in AI.

i suppose the idea of reducing test isnt really something i wanna do if i dont have to.

my question is since its been 2 weeks with no AI do yall think i should get BW done now to try and catch E2 before it climbs too high or should i give it til the 13th? which would be a month? trying to stay on top of this thing.

feeln pretty good now. tiredness has gone and libido is pretty good! makes me think my E2 may be on the way up??

thx

[SEOINAGE]

hey guys im back. havent done anything as of yet except stop my AI completely. i have considerd reducing my dose of test but havent done so yet. im hoping i can keep test where its at and dial in AI.

i suppose the idea of reducing test isnt really something i wanna do if i dont have to.

my question is since its been 2 weeks with no AI do yall think i should get BW done now to try and catch E2 before it climbs too high or should i give it til the 13th? which would be a month? trying to stay on top of this thing.

feeln pretty good now. tiredness has gone and libido is pretty good! makes me think my E2 may be on the way up??

thx

Do you know if you even need an AI? if you aren't sure you could just keep going and wait till longer to see what your E2 will be without ai.

[--->>405<<---]

Do you know if you even need an AI? if you aren't sure you could just keep going and wait till longer to see what your E2 will be without ai.

yeh its been upwards of 59-63 (i cant remember which, maybe both)

[SEOINAGE]

yeh its been upwards of 59-63 (i cant remember which, maybe both)

If that's with your current test dose then I might try a small dose of ai you haven't tried yet and stick with that for 5-6 weeks if you feel ok then do blood work. Or you could wait another week before starting ai. Sounds like you want to do bloodwork more than you really need to, but that's understandable considering you are worried about some issues, but unless you are getting nip issues a short duration shouldn't be very harmful. Really up to you, but to find out if your ai dose works you gotta be on it for quite a while before doing bloodwork.