HRT Expert Dr. Mark Gordon on why arimidex may not be needed and how he avoids it

[kelkel]

Not so. You did make some valid points and to that extent it is appreciated. I do not recall saying you were wrong about anything and most of the time have complimented you if you recall. The point-counterpoints have been good for the most part.

[steroid.com 1]

"I guess just because this doc said so they are right................. it amazes me how people follow others like sheep."

It's your general tone and overall arrogance that's causing the problems here; what makes you more of an authority then the leading medical minds in the TRT business?

I've never seen a thread turn like this one did in my entire time here; it's ugly, it sucks and I don't like it and won't tolerate it.

In my personal opinion, you are way too definitive in your responses and you downcast the top medical minds in Hormone Replacement Therapies for men and it just comes off really bad.

I am not a Doctor nor do I have any clinical experience. Everything I know is self taught, attending LEF conferences, speaking to practitioners, studying research papers...on and on...but I am no Doctor and can't compare myself to those practitioners who "get it"...I learn from them.

I do my utmost best and try not to be so definitive in my posts because from everything I've learned over the years is that there is nothing about this that is 100% certain; we're all different and we all react in different ways.

When I study the best minds in this business and where they are all pretty much in agreement with a certain protocol or practice that says something to me and I learn from it and by no means do I take is as definitive...things always change.

Like kel stated; no one here is disagreeing with you and your points, some are very well made; its just your definitive tone and overall angst that is screaming throughout your posts.

You clearly have issues with some members and management here and that tied to your ultra authoritative and definitive tone is a just a big turn off for everyone here...seriously.

[ZenFitness]

For what it's worth, I did a huge amount of vitamin and herbal supplementation research earlier this year, and, while I think herbal supplements are snake oil and stupid, vitamins are not. Everything I read consistently said that men should take 40 - 50 mg of zinc a day (for test, hair, and a whole host of other things including well being), 2000 - 4000 mg of fish oil a day (for the heart), 1000 mg of vitamin C a day (preferably 500 in the morning and 500 at night - for cortisol and stress), and 2000 - 6000 iU's of vitamin D a day (for a host of health reasons including free test). I take zinc picolinate as it supposedly is absorbed the best (although citrate is close behind it). Zinc helps a myriad of things for men ranging from hair loss to increasing free testosterone to helping fight too much estrogen (although the latter I wouldn't rely on zinc for).

The real interesting point of this thread is that it may be better to take less than 100mg of test a week... I've been looking at 100mg as the norm (it's what I do now), but maybe dialing back to 80mg would be something to consider.

[ZenFitness]

The picolinate or the citrate? I could be mis-remembering the absorption of citrate (it has been months since I read up on all this) as I found everyone pointing to picolinate and just went for the best.

[steroid.com 1]

Sorry Gdevine, your argument of "well 70% of men are deficient because of diet" argument doesn't sit well with me. Its actually one of the most foolish things I have heard you say.

Just Google this and you will see how foolish I really am

"More than 70% of men do not obtain the minimum daily requirement of zinc"

Have fun...

[HRTstudent]

The real interesting point of this thread is that it may be better to take less than 100mg of test a week... I've been looking at 100mg as the norm (it's what I do now), but maybe dialing back to 80mg would be something to consider.

at least we are at least somewhat discussing this other critical tidbit presented

As for the zinc. The link above has a lot of good info, and if you are a person interested in zinc I really recommend reading it. (Unfortunately, it has not always been accurately portrayed in this thread.)

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1378S.full "Dietary Factors Influencing Zinc Absorption"

But I'll throw in my 2 cents. It appears that from the study Zinc citrate is better than other forms of zinc, but it's not necessarily the best. Absorbing phytate with zinc is definitely a hindrance. And, Dr Mark Gordon uses zinc citrate and it works for him.

These are pretty much the facts we can store away in our memory banks if we want to whittle down the argument for brain-saving purposes.

[ZenFitness]

the real point that everyone should take out of this thread, is that on a high protein diet, zinc supps wont do shit for you.

Not necessarily true. High protein does not equal high zinc.

http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/zinc.php

Unless you are eating gobs of red meat for your protein or a shitload of oysters, then you aren't running a high zinc intake. Chicken is on the list, but it is the chicken leg... I'd wager most folks are eating chicken breast.

(EDIT: some protein powders can run a good zinc content... the one I used to use does not list zinc, but I found one that has 30%)

One final note... THE-DET-OAK, even though I'm coming off somewhat antagonistic to what you are saying, I am certainly interested. I have never heard what you are saying, so please understand why I would be skeptical. You said that you can't cite anything because of HIPAA laws - are you a doctor? If so, can you somewhat generically cite something?

[HRTstudent]

the only one that inaccurately portrayed anything about the study is you.

the only thing zinc citrate absorbs better than is milk fortified with zinc lol which they use in 3rd world countries so hey, at least its better than that lol

I can see now you have a hard time keeping up with the studies I posted, so I am fighting a losing argument, simply because you are not capable of understanding what I am telling you. Don't worry though, if you keep repeating it, it will become reality soon enough lol

the real point that everyone should take out of this thread, is that on a high protein diet, zinc supps wont do shit for you.

But hey Dr Gordon uses it lol who BTW I have never even heard of before this thread lol

Good luck student, it seems you have a long way to go.

Whats up with the name calling? Sheesh... I never attacked you or anything so why the hostility?

You draw all these conclusions but you don't tell us where? I don't understand. The study you posted was worthwhile but then you go off and call citrate inorganic, label it as garbage (from the study "Amino acids, such as histidine and methionine, and other low-molecular-weight ions, such as EDTA and organic acids (e.g., citrate), are known to have a positive effect on zinc absorption"), belittle Mark Gordon who has been doing this for decades (I read in another thread that about 2 years ago you were asking about the negatives of HRT), and now you insist that I don't "get" it?...

Man, you need to post less and take a break from interpreting data and literature!

[steroid.com 1]

"Whats up with the name calling? Sheesh... I never attacked you or anything so why the hostility?"

Because HRT he has an issue with some Mods and Management here and wants to poison our water.

It's time for him to go.

[HRTstudent]

Well, I guess he got caught up in it then.

But really nobody here is against being challenged but we can't let it resort to pettiness and name calling. There's actually some good info in this thread and it could be really useful.

I'm sure we will see more topics on the matter of less AI use and, hopefully, some peoples' feedback on lower T doses, both of which seem to be catching on.

[Sworder]

Main points from this thread, correct me if I am wrong:

Dr Gordon prescribes low-dose testosterone , something a lot of patients are not too joyous about. High end of normal is preferable for most.

Zinc is not an AI. Zinc deficiency can cause alterations of aromatase activity. Most men on this forum are probably getting enough zinc from protein powder/diet. 70% of men, yes. But not 70% of the people whom are interested in reaping the benefits of TRT and certainly not the crowd that is reading this message.

If you don't have doctor in or around your name your opinion .... Nevermind, lets just say that once you achieve a doctorate you are placed on Mount Olympus

TRT experts prescribe zinc because most men need it. LMFAO

[Swifto]

what the hell are you talking about, i am not trying to poison any water, you started attacking me. You are a baby gdevine, I was very polite to you in this entire thread until you decided to attack my integrity. "wishing I could debat the Dr" ?

You are being paranoid.

HRT student, I did not call you any names so I don't know what your talking about. You implied that I mis-represented the study and I did not, so it ruffled my feathers, don't see any name calling though.

It really doesn't matter what I say, I am disagreeing with you and your Dr and you don't like it. its really that simple. You 2 are the only ones taking it personal.

I have provided ample evidence for my argument and the only thing you guys have done, is keep repeating that this Dr uses it successfully.

I keep coming back to this thread cause I am waiting for you to back up your argument and you have yet to do so.

It wouldn't matter how polite I was in this thread, gdevine doesn't agree with me so he wants me to leave, thats the only childish thing being said.

Chill out before you ruin this thread.

[steroid.com 1]

"It wouldn't matter how polite I was in this thread, gdevine doesn't agree with me so he wants me to leave, thats the only childish thing being said."

I never said I don't agree with you; in fact, like HRT, in this thread I said you make some very good points.

But your arrogance is overbearing and obnoxious and that's what I disagree with; you come off as the single voice of authority and that you know more then some of the leading clinicians in the country...you're right and they are all wrong.

In fact, you made a blatant statement to me personally that my Doctor doesn't know what he's doing because he adds in 2mg of Zinc to his compounded Test Cyp. My Doctor is one the nations leading Physicians in hormonal replacement medicine in the country with more then 1000 patients nationwide...and he doesn't know what he's doing?

You wrote my comment re 70% of the male population being Zinc deficient as "one of the most foolish things you ever heard me say" was not called for and I supported it with a simple Google search. I wasn't talking about men on TRT protocols per se, I was talking about men in general and why Zinc supplementation may be a good idea for men as they don't eat the ideal diets. It wasn't a foolish statement, it was a factual statement that can be supported is all it was.

You point to one or two studies and make your points very definitively as opposed to offering them as a possible alternatives.

Nothing wrong with that but I would think any rational individual might think these highly trained TRT Medical Physicians probably know just a little bit more then the average layman...but that's just me...everyone else here can make up their own mind on that.

Anyhow, time to take some Aleve, it was a tough night in the gym..and oh, by the way; have a great Halloween!

Peace.

gd

[steroid.com 1]

Det-Oak, the TRT Physicians I, and other here reference, are the top guys in their filed not some Endo who is learning along the way...but the true pioneers in this new space.

You stated you just learned about Mark Gordon from this thread; study his papers, read his book (which is one of the best IMO), look at his success...he's doing something right man...and his patients respond and are well.

Gordon's book The Clinical Application of Interventional Endocrinology is an outstanding read (HRT's OP) and I would recommend anyone here to read it and learn. Go here if you're interested: http://www.amazon.com/The-Clinical-A.../dp/1597775835

Here's a good article published by LEF re his work with using hormones to help men with traumatic brain injuries...it's really very interesting stuff: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2012/...njuries_01.htm

As for changing a mans diet to correct Zinc deficiency, of course that would be ideal but the reality is we don't live in an ideal world...a little insurance goes a long way.

I need my Aleve...shoulders are killing me!!!

[steroid.com 1]

Also your doc has patients nationwide? he must have multi state licensing then................... for a doc with multi state licensing, 1,000 patients is nothing.

If he doesn't, those patients not in his state may want to re consider using him.

I said specifically "more than a 1000" and not "a 1000" and was not specific on an actual number for a reason.

Where's my Aleve...now my head hurts

[steroid.com 1]

^^^^And you are certainly open to your opinion and I don't "totally" disagree with you on that point.

We live in a world where men are suffering and have few choices to find the right hormonal corrective care.

We help them here by providing information and data from many sources one being what some of the top TRT Physicians prescribe to.

We don't offer it as a definitive cure; only that they can use it seek the right professional care from someone who is familiar with these protocols and nothing more.

We're not Doctors or clinical researchers here; just men with some knowledge and experience that we can impart to others and help guide thier care.

Lets agreed to end the squabbling here and be done with it...shoulder and arm night and I need to get away from this computer and take some Aelve...did I say that already LOL.

PS. Read his book Det; you will enjoy it and it may open your eyes a bit...well maybe

[xtitan1]

Why are we debating about how prevalent Zinc deficiency is? If you think you are personally deficient, get your blood tested just like we do for vitamin D. I eat plenty of protein and am deficient and supplement daily. Although the brand I am using is NOW which is a glucanate so maybe I should switch.

Better yet, you could get a NutrEval

http://www.gdx.net/core/sample-repor...ple-Report.pdf

[bass]

Damn! I'm gone for couple of days and this place falls apart! LOL.

[junk2222yard]

Getting back on track as to the original point of the thread, I think this bit from Gordon is central:

More than 80% of my population use 60-40mg of T a week. I have some very physically active males with 257.2 who use 40mg twice a week.

It is obvious that he is truly just trying to get his patients to have *normal* T levels. The thrust of TRT for most people is generating so-called optimal levels, in the top third of the scale. If you are only shooting for low or mid-range levels like Gordon, it stands to reason that it doesn't require as much exogenous T and therefor less or even zero AI.

[TennTarheel]

^^^^ Good point.

[junk2222yard]

well stay tuned because i am one of his patients.... and i am having b/w on Monday and as he says the b/w dont lie....your free t numbers dont lie... i will post the journey as it comes.

Hey tim, so how did it go yesterday? Are you on anything else besides the small amount of T?

[FRDave]

well stay tuned because i am one of his patients.... and i am having b/w on Monday and as he says the b/w dont lie....your free t numbers dont lie... i will post the journey as it comes. i do 40mg e7days and honesty i feel great i almost really dont give a shit what my numbers are if i feel like this im good to go.. his protocol has turned my life around so far this guy is my hero...... anyway more to come...

tim r

Speaking of Dr. Mark Gordon, correct? If so, can you shoot me a PM with your protocal and cost? I am currently speaking with his assistant Erin and was quoted $1,250 to start, but this only includes 1st labs and office visit. Trying to get a better understanding of the typical protocal and price as Erin has not answered all my questions such as filling my own scripts, self administration, etc.

thanks in advance,
Dave

[HRTstudent]

Getting back on track as to the original point of the thread, I think this bit from Gordon is central:
It is obvious that he is truly just trying to get his patients to have *normal* T levels. The thrust of TRT for most people is generating so-called optimal levels, in the top third of the scale. If you are only shooting for low or mid-range levels like Gordon, it stands to reason that it doesn't require as much exogenous T and therefor less or even zero AI.

What makes you say he shoots for "low or mid-range" testosterone levels ? I've never come across something that talks at this.


Also, does anyone know what happened to Anti Aging Space? The web site I had in the original post appears dead and looks like a placeholder page . So much for that bookmark of good info lol...

[Ryanmcd]

Glad I went to Dr Crisler when I started this because I was told all of this from the start and a few other things. I guess you have to ask yourself if the money worth feeling good / being happy everyday....