Test-C, TRT, general questions and fertility

[vapin]

Hello,

First time posting on the board, read some of the stickies at the top of this forum and did some searching, but I wanted to see if I could find some definitive answers to my questions. I've been on a TRT protocol about 2 months now that consists of:

200mg Test Cypionate once a week
583 IU (approx) of HCG and 1mg of Arimedex every 4 days

Now at the 2 month mark, I've upped the HCG to 611 IU. Unfortunately, to my regret, I didn't get blood work done before going on that protocol, so I have no baseline established. What I do know is that I didn’t like the way I was feeling in my life, I was feeling a lot of the symptoms related to low testosterone , and considering I’m 23, I was desperate to do something about it. Everyone says that at this age you should be feeling great, your natural T levels should be at their peak, but I wasn’t feeling that way, and it was taking a toll on my life. However I did get blood work done exactly after being on it for 1 month, and all tests came back normal (RBC, and Lipid Profile). In regards to the results that matter:

Testosterone : 549 ng/dl
LH: 1.4 mIU/ml (Low)
FSH: 0.9 mIU/ml (Low)
Estradiol: 14.4 pg/ml

I'm happy with how I feel having my testosterone at that level, and don't care about pushing it past that. I plan on getting another blood test done at the 4 month mark. I've tried researching all my questions, but I don't feel like I end up with conclusive answers. I hear from some that this is a protocol you can be on for life if you wanted to, but then I hear from others that this is something you should only do for 12-16 weeks (if it's not something you plan on being on for life) and if you go past 16 weeks that it will be harder to make a full-recovery.

So how long could you safely do the above protocol for, and what are the effects on fertility (which is really my main concern). I'm not looking to have kids now, but in a couple of years yes, so if I can come off a protocol, take a PCT, and wait the same amount of time off that I was on, I should have my LH and FSH back to normal levels and production and fertility shouldn't be a problem. At least that's the way I understand it, but if anyone has further insight into this, or can point out where I'm wrong that would be much appreciated. I tried searching in the forum for a good answer, but couldn't find anything since everyone's situation is so different. Also if there are other long-term or short-term risks involved with the above program that I might be missing.

[TennTarheel]

To really know how to answer your questions about fertility and lh/fsh, since children could be a possibility, you definitely need to know what the underlying issue was in the first place. I think I would stop the protocol, ask your doc to help you with a restart protocol with clomid, etc so you can get your raw bloodwork. I personally think this is of huuuuge importance, especially at your age.

I can't believe a practicing physician would put you on HRT without bloodwork at 23!!

Obviously you dont have age related decline in hormone levels, so there is most likely some other problem going on. There are several ailments that can cause similar symptoms to low test. At your age, the low test is actually just a symptom of another problem. BUT, we don't even know if your Test WAS actually low without having bloodwork.

So, with that said, it's hard to answer any fertility questions bc we don't really know what the possibilities could be. Does this make sense? Have you had an MRI? Did you have your thyroid checked? Adrenals? We don't know if you may be Primary or Secondary.

The vets will chime in I'm sure, and this is only my opinion, but I would definitely drudge through doing a restart protocol, let your natural levels settle, then get a TOTAL battery of tests to get the root issue. You will be so thankful that you did.

[Brohim]

I think he is self TRT and no doc involved.

[vapin]

I think he is self TRT and no doc involved.

That would be correct.

I'm only calling it TRT because it's a TRT type dose that I'm taking and the protocol looks like TRT, but I'm treating it like an AAS cycle. I only planned on staying on it for 4 months, get blood tested, then do 1 month PCT, wait 2 months after PCT to get blood tested again and see where things are at. Just wanted some insight as to whether doing something like that was relatively safe, since I'm not talking about doing this for life.

[TennTarheel]

Gotcha. Well, In my opinion, with the reasonable dose of test and having HCG along with it, I think you'll be good to go. Just make sure to have your PCT in order. Sorry for the confusion.

[HealthyMan]

Vapin,

Post you blood work my friend. From there the veterans of this board will be able to assist you better.

[HRTstudent]

So, basically you started these drugs because you thought your T was low but never had bloodwork?

By all accounts, this is a poor way to go about doing this.

Real TRT is done with blood work and drugs from a pharmacy. What you're doing, unfortunately for you, is just a low dose "cycle."

I would be searching for a doctor ASAP. You just don't have the means or knowledge to be treating yourself. Despite how much good information you can find on this site, it is used to supplement your TRT with a physician trained in TRT.

As far as fertility goes, 99% of people (or more) who are fertile before they start TRT are fertile after they stop TRT.

[TennTarheel]

Vapin,

Post you blood work my friend. From there the veterans of this board will be able to assist you better.

Not really sure what that was supposed to mean. He had no baseline bloodwork, hence my initial post

[pjbandit]

As far as fertility goes, 99% of people (or more) who are fertile before they start TRT are fertile after they stop TRT.

can you provide any research documents or more detail for the above statement you made? Would put my mind at ease.

Thanks...

[HealthyMan]

Not really sure what that was supposed to mean. He had no baseline bloodwork, hence my initial post

He said and I quote: "However I did get blood work done exactly after being on it for 1 month, and all tests came back normal (RBC, and Lipid Profile)." Do I stand corrected?

If he has something even after starting, we can go off those numbers for critique.

[TennTarheel]

He said and I quote: "However I did get blood work done exactly after being on it for 1 month, and all tests came back normal (RBC, and Lipid Profile)." Do I stand corrected?

If he has something even after starting, we can go off those numbers for critique.

His specific question was about fertility. We have no idea if he was fertile in the first place. So BW before starting could have given us some initial LH and FSH figures at least. I was aware of the one month BW. Obviously they are skewed somewhat. But yes, if he was asking if his BW was ok in general, of course any he has is pertinent.

Just thought you were totally dismissing any advice I had given him. That all

[HealthyMan]

Just thought you were totally dismissing any advice I had given him. That all

Not at all, we're all here to lend our experience and provide sound advice. We're all in this together in a sense. Glad to see another member being proactive.

[vapin]

He said and I quote: "However I did get blood work done exactly after being on it for 1 month, and all tests came back normal (RBC, and Lipid Profile)." Do I stand corrected?

If he has something even after starting, we can go off those numbers for critique.

Yep, attached are both pages from the BW after 1 month that I mentioned.

[vapin]

He said and I quote: "However I did get blood work done exactly after being on it for 1 month, and all tests came back normal (RBC, and Lipid Profile)." Do I stand corrected?

If he has something even after starting, we can go off those numbers for critique.

Yep, these are the results of the BW after 1 month:

CBC With Differential/Platelet
WBC 6.7 x10E3/uL 4.0-10.5
RBC 4.57 x10E6/uL 4.14-5.80
Hemoglobin 14.3 g/dL 12.6-17.7
Hematocrit 42.6 % 37.5-51.0
MCV 93 fL 79-97
MCH 31.3 pg 26.6-33.0
MCHC 33.6 g/dL 31.5-35.7
RDW 13.4 % 12.3-15.4
Platelets 158 x10E3/uL 140-415
Neutrophils 50 % 40-74
Lymphs 37 % 14-46
Monocytes 8 % 4-13
Eos 5 % 0-7
Basos 0 % 0-3
Neutrophils (Absolute) 3.3 x10E3/uL 1.8-7.8
Lymphs (Absolute) 2.5 x10E3/uL 0.7-4.5
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.5 x10E3/uL 0.1-1.0
Eos (Absolute) 0.4 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.4
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.2
Immature Granulocytes 0 % 0-2
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.1
Comp. Metabolic Panel (14)
Glucose, Serum 90 mg/dL 65-99
BUN 18 mg/dL 6-20
Creatinine, Serum 1.03 mg/dL 0.76-1.27
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 102 mL/min/1.73 >59
eGFR If Africn Am 118 mL/min/1.73 >59
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 17 8-19
Sodium, Serum 141 mmol/L 134-144

Potassium, Serum 4.4 mmol/L 3.5-5.2
Chloride, Serum 102 mmol/L 97-108
Carbon Dioxide, Total 22 mmol/L 20-32
Calcium, Serum 9.3 mg/dL 8.7-10.2
Protein, Total, Serum 7.2 g/dL 6.0-8.5
Albumin, Serum 4.7 g/dL 3.5-5.5
Globulin, Total 2.5 g/dL 1.5-4.5
A/G Ratio 1.9 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.4 mg/dL 0.0-1.2
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 53 IU/L 25-150
AST (SGOT) 19 IU/L 0-40
ALT (SGPT) 19 IU/L 0-55
Lipid Panel
Cholesterol, Total 161 mg/dL 100-189
**Please note reference interval change**
Triglycerides 43 mg/dL 0-114
**Please note reference interval change**
HDL Cholesterol 53 mg/dL >39
According to ATP-III Guidelines, HDL-C >59 mg/dL is considered a
negative risk factor for CHD.
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 9 mg/dL 5-40
LDL Cholesterol Calc 99 mg/dL 0-119
**Please note reference interval change**
Testosterone , Serum
Testosterone, Serum 549 ng/dL 348-1197
Luteinizing Hormone(LH), S
LH 1.4 Low mIU/mL 1.7-8.6
FSH, Serum
FSH 0.9 Low mIU/mL 1.5-12.4
Estradiol
Estradiol 14.4 pg/mL 7.6-42.6

[vapin]

He said and I quote: "However I did get blood work done exactly after being on it for 1 month, and all tests came back normal (RBC, and Lipid Profile)." Do I stand corrected?

If he has something even after starting, we can go off those numbers for critique.

Yep, kept having issues trying to post the BW, says it needed to be approved by mods. Here is the BW i mentioned after 1 month:

CBC With Differential/Platelet
WBC 6.7 x10E3/uL 4.0-10.5
RBC 4.57 x10E6/uL 4.14-5.80
Hemoglobin 14.3 g/dL 12.6-17.7
Hematocrit 42.6 % 37.5-51.0
MCV 93 fL 79-97
MCH 31.3 pg 26.6-33.0
MCHC 33.6 g/dL 31.5-35.7
RDW 13.4 % 12.3-15.4
Platelets 158 x10E3/uL 140-415
Neutrophils 50 % 40-74
Lymphs 37 % 14-46
Monocytes 8 % 4-13
Eos 5 % 0-7
Basos 0 % 0-3
Neutrophils (Absolute) 3.3 x10E3/uL 1.8-7.8
Lymphs (Absolute) 2.5 x10E3/uL 0.7-4.5
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.5 x10E3/uL 0.1-1.0
Eos (Absolute) 0.4 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.4
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.2
Immature Granulocytes 0 % 0-2
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.1
Comp. Metabolic Panel (14)
Glucose, Serum 90 mg/dL 65-99
BUN 18 mg/dL 6-20
Creatinine, Serum 1.03 mg/dL 0.76-1.27
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 102 mL/min/1.73 >59
eGFR If Africn Am 118 mL/min/1.73 >59
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 17 8-19
Sodium, Serum 141 mmol/L 134-144

Potassium, Serum 4.4 mmol/L 3.5-5.2
Chloride, Serum 102 mmol/L 97-108
Carbon Dioxide, Total 22 mmol/L 20-32
Calcium, Serum 9.3 mg/dL 8.7-10.2
Protein, Total, Serum 7.2 g/dL 6.0-8.5
Albumin, Serum 4.7 g/dL 3.5-5.5
Globulin, Total 2.5 g/dL 1.5-4.5
A/G Ratio 1.9 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.4 mg/dL 0.0-1.2
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 53 IU/L 25-150
AST (SGOT) 19 IU/L 0-40
ALT (SGPT) 19 IU/L 0-55
Lipid Panel
Cholesterol, Total 161 mg/dL 100-189
**Please note reference interval change**
Triglycerides 43 mg/dL 0-114
**Please note reference interval change**
HDL Cholesterol 53 mg/dL >39
According to ATP-III Guidelines, HDL-C >59 mg/dL is considered a
negative risk factor for CHD.
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 9 mg/dL 5-40
LDL Cholesterol Calc 99 mg/dL 0-119
**Please note reference interval change**
Testosterone , Serum
Testosterone, Serum 549 ng/dL 348-1197
Luteinizing Hormone(LH), S
LH 1.4 Low mIU/mL 1.7-8.6
FSH, Serum
FSH 0.9 Low mIU/mL 1.5-12.4
Estradiol
Estradiol 14.4 pg/mL 7.6-42.6

[Vettester]

So, basically you started these drugs because you thought your T was low but never had bloodwork?

By all accounts, this is a poor way to go about doing this.

Real TRT is done with blood work and drugs from a pharmacy. What you're doing, unfortunately for you, is just a low dose "cycle."

I would be searching for a doctor ASAP. You just don't have the means or knowledge to be treating yourself. Despite how much good information you can find on this site, it is used to supplement your TRT with a physician trained in TRT.

As far as fertility goes, 99% of people (or more) who are fertile before they start TRT are fertile after they stop TRT.

^^^ This ^^^ TRT isn't just something you jump on and off for the hell of it. To boot, your E2 is already showing the lagging effects of taking too much AI, so at this pace of that dosage you can expect to be bottomed out. You can read the E2 sticky to see the bad things associated when you tank your E2.

The other thing is, how exactly are you able to measure 583iu and 611iu of HCG ?? Unless you're working in a laboratory with sophisticated equipment, I can't see it being done. Even if it could, it's such a tiny margin of measurement, it would make zero difference in your program.

[vapin]

^^^ This ^^^ TRT isn't just something you jump on and off for the hell of it. To boot, your E2 is already showing the lagging effects of taking too much AI, so at this pace of that dosage you can expect to be bottomed out. You can read the E2 sticky to see the bad things associated when you tank your E2.

The other thing is, how exactly are you able to measure 583iu and 611iu of HCG?? Unless you're working in a laboratory with sophisticated equipment, I can't see it being done. Even if it could, it's such a tiny margin of measurement, it would make zero difference in your program.

My HCG measurements are approximations based on the math used when reconstituting a bottle.

First bottle was 7,000IU and I used 6cc's of bac water, so I figured the math was 7,000/6 = 1166, I'm doing half a cc, so 1166 x .5 = 583.

The reason why I say it went up to 611, was because I ran out of the 7,000IU bottle, and used an 11,000IU bottle the second time with 9cc's of bac water. So 11,000/9 = 1222, then 1222 x .5 = 611.

If I'm calculating it wrong then please let me know.


In regards to the E2, I read the post, what I assume your suggesting is that the AI needs to be decreased by .25 given the amount of test being administered weekly. Like I mentioned in post #4, what I'm doing is a 4 month cycle really, but not a ridiculous cycle like people usually take, its more of a low dose TRT style cycle. And I have a plan to get BW before getting off the cycle, and a couple of months after when things should be producing normally so I can see where I'm at and decide if I should see my doctor. It's not easy to just walk into your GP's office and start talking about these things especially since you don't know how keen the doctor is on all of this. Just on this forum alone I see posts about doctors and endo's that members have horror stories about in regards to the things they are told when visiting, or general lack of knowledge in this area. However I do understand what you are saying and will make it a point to see the doc, just not yet.