new guy with ??????

[fireeater49]

Hey there,

Texan newbie here. Firefighter as the name hopefully indicates
49 years old male, weightlifting for health (heavy 5x5 one a week training-- "gray hair training" getting old!), crossfitter (2-3x week no more than 30min), training to do the the "human flag" (bucket list)

5' 8"
180 lb 11% Carrying little xtra around the belly
Freaking tired all the time, body aches, no zip, slight depression at times, the "drive" seems to be withering

LAB CORP RESULTS
233 total t
% free t 2.79% (1.5-4.2)
test free 8.04 (5-21)
cbc with diff all show in middle ranges
Comp met panel 14 all in range
hemoglobin alc in upper range 5.1 (4.8-5.6)
prostate serum 1.8 (0-4)
t3 free serum 2.9 (2-4.4)
otherwise good labs except cholesterol (total 233 ldl 158 trig 90 hdl 56)

I am a low t guy just starting to go through trt 200ml shot test cyp 2-3x month depending on how I "feel" and 6 month lab work pr DO. I really do not agree with it but heck he is in charge .... for now.

Any suggestions on possible supplementing with additional test cyp (hear half life is 5-8 days and also 10-12 days...confused DO seems hesistant to do anymore) and any labs missed or education on how not to make DO feel stupid but make him feel that I know myself better than him.

Does not want me to do shots but I will work on him. 10$ a shot with me buying from him 10ml test cyp at 160$. Insurance will be difficult.

Tried and spent alot on "natural" things that seem to work alittle but these labs were drawn with me on them (trib, argi,long jack, creatine, etc) Figure to save money and go with this for awhile. Want so badly to feel more energy and "zest"

I will be trying to navigate this site for advice. ( old school guy not much of a computer guy but willing to learn from the forum here) I am not looking to be bodybuilder but be a "muscular cross fitter" who loves life and getting back into the "game"

Thanks in advance everybody!

[kelkel]

Glad you switched your post here as requested. Thank you.

Assuming they are pre-TRT labs and if so nothing really jumps out that you don't already know. If not, when was the BW pulled relative to the last injection? More thorough labs always help us help you but if you say all is in order then it's probably just a normal age related decline in T.

When it comes to you test protocol you need consistency, not more T. Probably less actually. Consistency meaning weekly injections at a minimum. Your doc does not understand the half-life of testosterone (5-7 days metabolism dependent) which can put you on a hormonal roller-coaster. Spend some time reading all the stickies here and lurking on the forum and you can learn a lot. Educate your doc if you can. If he won't help move on. It's your health and well being. Eventually you may need HCG for testicular atrophy and an AI to combat estrogen (see stickies.)

Lab work in 6 months? OMG that's ridiculous. It should be 6 weeks. Many problems can arise in that time period that need to be addressed that impact your health. Make sure you get this done.

More will chime in!

Again, welcome

[HRTstudent]

Looking at your name, I thought you just liked redheads, lol.

Anyways, the total T is low but given the fact that you're on TRT it's a bit moot now. You need to get a few simple things in order.

Firstly, a 200mg shot of T will undoubtedly put your T far above high-normal range. The next bad thing that's going to happen, unfortuantely, is that in about 10-14 days you're probably going to be at a T level of about where you started. Then you're going to go through this again and again. Basically, you're getting on TRT but in a fashion that maximizes side effects. To put it plainly, it's modern day malpractice. A physician prescribing that in todays day and age simply is not up to date on current standards of practice. I would lose the doc.

Where you probably want to end up is somewhere around 50mg twice a week. If I was going to start out, I would say that's probably a really good place that's going to get most people in a good range. Subcutaneous injections are becoming quite popular in medicine as well. Many on this board have made the switch.

Testosterone cypionate from CVS is like $90 without insurance. So take your script there if need be. I have read that Costco has the best prices if there is one of those around you.

Do you happen to be near Houston? The board admin can probably recommend some good docs because he is trying to start a TRT business based out of Houston.

Lots to learn really... you can start by reading the stickies!

[steroid.com 1]

Kel and HRT hit on most of the important points; I want to know what your Estradiol levels look like before and post TRT treatment.

Also, does your Doc understand HPTA suppression and are you taking HCG to keep your testicles functioning?

[fireeater49]

Thanks for the info guys. Those BW is before first injection. In fact, he had to order the test cyp to keep at his office to give me my shots. I am still waiting on my first shot.

So with the info about CVS in hand, I am little concerned about my 160 I spent on it with the 10 dollar per shot. He says he wants to get me to 600mg and stay there. He actually brought up the half life issue but still insist on bimonthly shots. I am going to try to slowly change his mind about who and when the shot is given. He is adamant about me not doing it. Never mind I told him the fact that I was a first line paramedic with 17 years experience of ALS and CCC certifications. I know I should keep on looking but these clinics here in big D in Texas are charging a leg and a arm. With 2 kids in college (my dime) and working 2 jobs I cannot pay the private pay nor just go to the drs office 4x a month. Anyway, at least I hope to get started and convince my DO.

What good info can I give him? Thinking about Dr. Crisler or the such.

Thanks guys for the info again, will keep you updated and if you local guys can give me some referrals on DR in area please pm me

[fireeater49]

Oh yea I asked him about a PCT or something to keep my E2 levels in check and my balls normal he said will cross that bridge when we get to it. I am putting up alot because he is the most liberal dr that I have found.

[fireeater49]

sorry guys but what in the heck is a sticky?

[kelkel]

A sticky is the threads at the top of this forum that are educational and don't move. Valuable info there. Read up. Get this link to your doc and have him watch it. Switch to SQ twice per week if possible. If this doc has issues with you giving yourself low volume shots with an insulin syringe then find another....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n98LO...ature=youtu.be

kel

[fireeater49]

thanks ....easier said than do

[steroid.com 1]

He may be "liberal" and if he really understands Testosterone half life he'd would have you once weekly. He's seating you on an hormonal roller coaster and it's not doing you any good.

The spikes in serum levels can/will impact E2 levels as well as throw off your homeostasis...

He needs to understand HPTA suppression and what it will do your testicles as well.

He may be liberal in your minds eye but to me he just seems like one more Doc who doesn't know what he's prescribing.

[fireeater49]

wrong word to have used..........close minded is what I should have used. Maybe it was the low t that got me to use the wrong word.

[HRTstudent]

This guy sounds like a bum. There is no reason to have a patient come into his office eery 2 weeks for a shot. What a wste of medical resources and a complete disregard for the patient's time. What planet is he on? Does he think type 1 diabetics should see their endo every time they shoot some insulin ?

This guy may be all you have right now, but put all your effort into finding a new doc right now. If you're in Dallas, it's a guarantee that there is someone there who knows about TRT and takes insurance. That's a big damn city! You just have to look, call, ask, and google!

[fireeater49]

Alright guys here is an update...

Was given IM shot of 1 cc of test cyp with 1 cc of b12 by doc.
1st day.............nothing noticed
2nd day........still no energy but noticed a "deeper" more restful night sleep. My chronic shoulder pain seems to have subsided
3rd day........not much more energy but again good restful sleep. My weight workout I did not noticed any more strength but had a very full pump that I have not had in a long time. Dr will order labs in 3 months.

Have 7 more days until second shot. He wants to try 3 shots a month spaced 10-14 days apart and see how I feel.

Will keep you informed and fyi still looking for another dr in DFW area here in Texas

[fireeater49]

Ok sports fans 2nd shot (10 days from first shot) 1cc test cyp with 1cc b12

Energy levels (my main concern) not much improved. Strength (5x5 and bodyweight training) has improved.Quality of sleep has improved. DO still wants to wait on labs. Last set he did not get base line of E2 or SHBH. Bodyaches slightly better (all years of training with ego instead of brains) Vital signs good. Weight has gone up a bit (180 to 188) Will soon start my DHEA and Vit D 5000 IU .The boys are still doing good no changes. DO again turned me down for HCG and still wants to wait to see how I feel. Thinking of hitting him with DO Crisler hormone blood work sample.

Still no luck with DO letting me "pin" myself. I would like to try SQ but was dismissed because "IM" is the proper way to go per DO.

Anyway, still going trudging on.

Comments or suggestions anyone? Supplements, labs, expectations, anything?

[fireeater49]

3rd shot, improved energy, vital signs are still good, some strength increases, still body aches, have been told by wife that I am little more moody and aggressive. Gotta remember the fact that she is on hormones replacement therapy also so I do not really know if she is used to teddy bear she bossed around or someone who is being a stronger man than before TRT and not being the "teddy bear" anymore . Maybe a Dr Phil episode.

[GeriatricOne]

Hey fireeater. I'm in Texas too (and do CrossFit 5 days). I've been using the Low-T centers here in the D/FW metroplex. It's been a reliable source of treatment for me these past 7 months. They don't prescribe and let you pin yourself, but TRT is what they do. HCG and Anasrozole (for estrogen when creeps up) are included. They draw blood every 5 weeks and watch your levels closely. It's a good clinic to get you started on a proper path (education and treatment). Now that I am familiar with the TRT protocol, what to monitor, and how I react to dosage changes... I am feeling better prepared to self-administer and am looking around for a knowledgable supportive doctor (but not rushing it). It's been a positive experience at the Low-T center. Lots of fire and police at the center I go to. Some mornings a fire engine is parked outside and the entire house is in for their injections )

[fireeater49]

hey thanks for the info. I will check into it.

[fireeater49]

4th shot (10 days between shots) still 200mg/ml cyp. Really no energy increase except during weight workouts. Strength going up.Body aches still there. Have not notice fat loss yet. Vital signs still good. Pumps getting fuller. No changes in libido ( still good not been a problem ) but balls aching and occasional nipples hurting especially 1-2 days after shot. Nurse giving shot ask how I feel and I said really no changes but workouts are better. She said Dr will do quick testosterone test to see how I am doing before next shot. I told her how I feel little around day 6 my symptoms get worse and suggested that I pin myself every 4 days at 100mg. I was lectured that it was not protocol and risky. Told her that my 18 years as ACLS paramedic experience should count for something since I pushed much more dangerous drugs into patients. Think I pissed her off. I asked her about measuring E2 and T3 and T4 levels and maybe a complete blood work up but was told Dr usually does the quick testosterone test. I asked about HCG or HMB and was brushed off saying that is "women's" meds. Man, really feel like I am doing this alone. I ordered DHEA and Vit D 5000 IU waiting for them to come in. Strange how women going through HRT never have to do this dog and pony show. Heck, beer is worse for you and is responsible for more deaths than steroids .

[fireeater49]

Alright gents going in for my 5th shot (every 10 days 200mg cyp) My boys down under the belt have been quite sore and my teenaged daughters say I have been moody. Do not necessary agree with it (after all its an estrogen house party with my menopausal wife and hormonal girls ) but after reading the stickies about the value of HCG (not on it , see last post) Strength is going up and the younger guys at the station here have said the "old man" is swole. Still have not noticed the energy that came advertised. Dr is going to give me a quick(?) test for my test levels while in the office. Will keep you guys in loop. Hopefully I can get another full set of labs.

[steroid.com 1]

Test for E2 sensitive panel...this is critical!

If your E2 is elevated all that Testosterone is not doing what you want it to and you won't get the complete results you are expecting.

Remember, for many men E follows T.

[EverettCD]

Good to see that you have taken a step in the right direction, hopefully soon you will find a better Dr. I am currently searching for a better Dr. myself since my PCP knows very little about TRT & is not receptive to all the information I have learned here.

Good to see a brother fireman on here as well.

Alright gents going in for my 5th shot (every 10 days 200mg cyp) My boys down under the belt have been quite sore and my teenaged daughters say I have been moody. Do not necessary agree with it (after all its an estrogen house party with my menopausal wife and hormonal girls ) but after reading the stickies about the value of HCG (not on it , see last post) Strength is going up and the younger guys at the station here have said the "old man" is swole. Still have not noticed the energy that came advertised. Dr is going to give me a quick(?) test for my test levels while in the office. Will keep you guys in loop. Hopefully I can get another full set of labs.

[fireeater49]

Update sports fans: Went to Dr. and talked him up as being on my "team" to get this T thing figured out. Left him Dr. Crisler T protocol and HCG protocol. He flat out dismissed HCG despite reading it. He did think the idea I brought up about checking my E2 level seems to be a good idea. I presented my symptoms to him (earlier posts) and his solution was for me to stop and try transdermal gel. He said he had a few out of date packets that should have good potency left. I interjected that a retest of my levels with at least the E2 testing would be a good start and increasing/decreasing my dose but make it weekly. He disagreed and was leaning me to the gel. Finally got him to order the test lab work that we discussed and follow up the blood draw with 150mg shot instead of my normal 200mg shot. I will continual to go every 10 days. At the end of the visit I shot back him about the HCG if we are not moving the shots to 7 days. He again says he does not prescribe HCG. WIth all that said guys, I will continue on because just quitting now is not going to be a consideration for me. On another note I found something about the testing procedures when doing testosterone testing. Interesting read guys here is the link

http://artofmanliness.com/2013/01/16...terone-levels/

sorry for my inept computer skills.

[APIs]

You really need to dump this guy as others have stated. You are being treated incorrectly & it's putting you on a hormonal roller coaster. Spend a whole day just googling Docs and speaking with their office personnel on the phone. You can also call a few compounding pharmacists in your area and ask if they know any area Docs that speacialize in TRT. If you put the time in, you'll find a good Doc & stop this insanity...

[fireeater49]

I hear you man, and yes I have called dr/staff and compounding pharmacies. Problem 95% of time is that no one wants to talk over email or phone but charge me a new pt visit just to talk to them. So right now my choices seem to be this 1. Continue with this guy, educate him and get stuff blackmarket or 2. Pay mucho money for a anti aging clinic (around here is 350 month and up) not feasible now with college kids bills or 3. Pay new pt visit to every Tom Dick and Harry MD to "maybe" get them to go along with a sound, up to date protocols for TRT. It seems like everyone in the local MD field here where I live thinks I want to be Arnold or compete in the Tour de France. They are soooo misinformed. Already spent the money for my bottle (at DR office) so my plan is to KEEP looking but finishing out my bottle and hopefully at that time have a new guy or HRT online service (reasonable priced) ready to go.

[texastea]

A fourth option, that admittedly not every one is comfortable with, is to self-prescribe with testosterone obtained via the underground market. I personally got fed up with trying to find a doctor who was comfortable treating me with a pre-TRT level of 301 because it exceeded the range low of 241. I took option four and haven't looked back.

[fireeater49]

What you do about blood work? Private labs are $$$$

[ctenosaura]

What you do about blood work? Private labs are $$$$

Here's your answer....
http://www.privatemdlabs.com/

[fireeater49]

Hmmm. Thanks. Like the idea of my OWN private records.

[fireeater49]

Update sports fans.... Went to my 7 week visit (50 days 200mg shot every 10 days) told him of main symptoms ( balls hurting , nipples sensitive, not big burst of energy that came advertised with trt) but told him that strength up, focus up, wt slightly up ( hungry now ) He wanted to stop shots and go to patches, I said no. I mention testing for my levels including sensitive E2. He asked why. Gave Crisler protocol to him. He said no to HCG . He said that it was off label use. I reminded him about Viagra being used for bp and now used for boners. He was silent. He ordered tests and started me at shots at 150mg every 10 days. I told him that I just started with 50mg of DHEA in morning (about 7 days into this) and I seemed to be in better mood and feeling better and would like to continue with 200mg but self pin at 100mg every 3 or 4 days. Guess what? No again. Have not been turned down this much since junior high at the 8th grade dance.

VS good. Results came back from Labcorp
Total Test 386 (started program at 288)
% of free 10.2 (started program at 8.2)
E2 12 (not previous tested)

previous tests no hypo or hyper thyroidism just "getting older" falling testosterone levels

Sorry guys I do not have the ranges with me (at work now) but know that I am in the very low normal range of total, low normal range of %, and low of E2. Other bw looked good. No T3 or T4 tests this time (do not know why it was not ordered)

Suggestions? FYI tested before I got office shot and it was the 10 day. Would my test drop that low at the end of my roller coaster ride? Am I not giving it enough time yet (patience is a virtue I am working on)

Thanks

[fireeater49]

I know to ditch dr but the other ones here in DFW area seem to lean this way. Still looking

[fireeater49]

Sorry I forgot to post that the shots are IM in glutes. Just got through reading another topic about SQ and IM and thought it might be relevant

[EverettCD]

Your Doc will not allow you to self administer the test at home ?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum

[fireeater49]

No, one of many points of aggravation with this guy. No hcg , no self pinning, no AI, shots charges at dr going up, compounded Test Cyp only delivered to his office, brother I could go on

[EverettCD]

That really blows. Hopefully you'll find a better Dr in the near future.

Sent from my iPhone that was manufactured in a sweat shop in China